A question for the gay Escapists

[Coldster]

The few gays I know somehow feel that because they are a minority that sometimes gets picked on, they believe they deserve special treatment. I have nothing against gays and I actually have a friend that is bi, but the fact that some arrogant gays think they deserve more rights the the average person is just stupid. I'm sure that's not what most of them are like but I just hope I don't meet anymore of the arrogant type.

 

[Paularius]

As a gay guy i tend to avoid the gay scene for most of the reasons the OP mentioned.

 

[eoghanryder]

I really hope this is supposed to be sarcastic or ironic or something because I nearly spit up my drink whilst reading this...

Yeah, worried it might not be obviously sarcastic enough, and I'd get banned for saying gay people are opposed to direct sunlight.

Stupid internets not letting sarcasm work.

Phew, yeah you're right, sarcasm often comes across really badly on the Internet. :L

 

[trooper6]

Dear Fenra,

You may think there is no difference between gay people and straight people, and that is very admirable of you. But you are missing some important points.

Gay people and Straight people are not treated the same in society. And the difference in treatment can affect your personality. It is not as if a person is making "gay their personality"--rather that, having your parents kick you out of your home, or being fired, or not being allowed to marry, or being beaten up, or being told you are going to hell, or that you don't actually exist, etc...that can have an effect on your personality...and in some environments, it can come to be a very important part of your personal life.

When I was in the Army, being queer was a central part of my personality. Why? Because I, at all times, had to worry that someone might learn I was queer and then I might be put in jail. I had undercover cops try to infiltrate my circle of friends to see if they could find out if there were any queer people on my base so they could arrest them. My straight friends would casually talk about their dating life and ask me about mine. I had to create and maintain and remember an elaborate set of lies so they wouldn't catch on to who I really was. I always had to make sure I didn't do or say anything that might give me away. And when I met with the few gay friends I had, where I could for a few moments be relaxed, we all had to make sure that no one saw us meeting together and to make sure no one knew where I was or who I was with. I had to pretend not to care when I read in the Army Times that a friend of mine was the last person kicked out of the service under the pre-Don't Ask Don't Tell policy. I had to see friends put in prison. I had to ponder, do I engage in a fake marriage to make me safer. I had to deal with friends who were raped, but couldn't report because the rapist was blackmailing them....threatening to expose their homosexuality. I had a friend who was sent to prison for engaging in oral sex, and then had his religious family disown him. Do you think those experiences didn't effect my personality and who I am?

Deep on the inside, in a perfect world, is there a difference between gays and non-gays? No. But there is a real difference between how they are treated, and that difference in treatment then effects who you are.

So. Gay Pride. You think Gay Pride is about making Gay your personality. I'd say Gay Pride is about many different things than that. It is about 1) commemorating the Stonewall Riots and remember how far we have come in the struggle for civil rights and how far we have to go. 2) it is about fighting the dominant messages of society that being gay is something shameful or not to be mentioned, 3) it is a way to see that you are not alone. Especially if you don't live in a big gay freindly city, it is easy to think that you are the only queer person around, to feel very along and isolated...gay pride weekend is a way to reinforce community...much like a Sci-Fi or Gaming convention, or going to church on Sundays, or any other way people come together.

 

[dex-dex]

I live in Canada and gay pride is really close to where I live but people getting deffensive has never been a issue

do you live in Toronto?
and I agree our gays are not. did you go to pride? it is so much fun even for non gays!

OT: that is a stereotype. not all are pricks.
I met people like I would anyone else and would just find out over time. I know people who are gay and they are awesome. The Gay community has somewhat of a chipped shoulder because many are told throughout their "lifestyle" is not right.

 

[trooper6]

The few gays I know somehow feel that because they are a minority that sometimes gets picked on, they believe they deserve special treatment. I have nothing against gays and I actually have a friend that is bi, but the fact that some arrogant gays think they deserve more rights the the average person is just stupid. I'm sure that's not what most of them are like but I just hope I don't meet anymore of the arrogant type.

What extra rights that average people don't get do gays want? Specifically.

 

[Gustavo S. Buschle]

I perceive the youth of Denmark as one big bisexual orgy.

 

[Nimcha]

Sounds like the type of people your meeting, lots of gay people are really nice and a lot are really annoying just like anyone else.

Sometimes people seem to forget that gay people are, in fact, also still people. So we can also be annoying, obnoxious or any other trait straight people can have too.

 

[lovest harding]

As what could be considered a fairly unattractive man (a sin, as we know it, in the active groups of the gay community), I have yet to meet a gay man who wasn't a total jackass.
But keep in mind that's also because I've only met 3 or 4 open gay men (as I live in a small town in Iowa). And to be fair, they were all jackasses for various reasons (most of them boiled down to that I wasn't even attractive enough to be their friend, though).

I look a bit too manly and sound a bit too feminine for most. They expect a 90 pound blond kid to sound like a queen not a 6'1 man of Germanic descent. But I can't help that, plus it's a wonderful. xD

Well I guess that's mostly the older generations, they've had to deal with a lot more hostility and a lot less acceptance in the past. So I can't fault them for being a little defensive.

I am one of the newer generations, and I find it hard to be offended by homophobes. I just don't take them seriously anymore.

I completely disagree. The newer generation is worse at being entirely arrogant.
We just need to learn that we still have to fight (something past generations had that we're losing). We have to teach that gay people are as widely ranged as straight people, that we're not just the stereotype (and even if some of us are, that's perfectly acceptable). Our lives are not on based solely on the fact that we are gay, it does not color everything I do. Who I love is not me. These are things we need to teach everyone (including people in the community). We'd be happier as a whole if we could just acknowledge that gay is not everything we are.
We need more people like Ellen (who is basically as symbolic as Oprah is to the black community, that we're not all what everyone expects of us).
These days we're such a segmented group as well. Everyone has a scene and stays in it. It's a shame that we also have the tendency to look down on other segments (the Bear community, for example, is looked down upon from other communities or the Transgender community being all around neglected from the LGBT community entirely).

This is based on my experience. I know I'm generalizing. I'll respond to any of my points, but please don't insult me because I hold a different view from someone else (I tend to get bashed when talking about my views on the gay community).
Personally, I love the gay community. We're like a tiny melting pot sitting inside a bigger melting pot (the world population). xD

On a side note: No one should ever let anyone accuse them of being 'too gay'. Because let's face it, there's nothing gayer than a man having sex with a man. Not even Liza Minnelli and I'm pretty sure she had sex with a gay man.

EDIT: I would also like to acknowledge that I don't have gay pride. The same way I do not have pride in my country. I love being gay and I love America, but I did nothing in either of those to be proud of. I didn't fight for the freedom of America, so I have no right be proud of its accomplishments. I did not fight to be gay. I am incredibly happy to be in both of those communities. Sometimes it sucks, but usually it's wonderful. I am thankful for what people who came before me did, but I'm not proud of something I had no part in creating.

 

[aba1]

I live in Canada and gay pride is really close to where I live but people getting deffensive has never been a issue

do you live in Toronto?
and I agree our gays are not. did you go to pride? it is so much fun even for non gays!

OT: that is a stereotype. not all are pricks.
I met people like I would anyone else and would just find out over time. I know people who are gay and they are awesome. The Gay community has somewhat of a chipped shoulder because many are told throughout their "lifestyle" is not right.

I live in Oshawa (not to far away)I actually go to durham college. I haven't ever really been but I know all about it n have friends who go. I really could care less if ppl are gay or not n I am pritty sure thats the general consensis here.

 

[Zarkov]

After attending the Christopher Street Day (the European version of Gay Pride) this weekend I was wondering if I'm alone with something that's been bugging me for quite some time now:

When did gay guys (don't know about women) start to get such arrogant pricks?
OK, the LGBT community always had bitchiness rooted within, but I feel that it's getting worse. I've lived in four cities so far and have never had problems becoming friends with new people. Maybe it's partly because of the city I live in now (Munich's population is... special) or I'm just imagening things, but man is it complicated to get people to talk to you without them thinking you want to jump them instantly.

So, Escapists, I'd really like to know how you percieve the gay scene where you live. Did people get more selective because of Internet dating? Do you feel as part of the community? How did you start your friendship with other gay people?

Ah, but that's what happens when a population of people are looked down upon for such a long time. Blacks sure were pissed, and now gays are. This is a good and healthy reaction to discrimination whether it's by a government or another group of people that have more influence.

It'll go away as soon as people start to grasp the ideal that gay people have a right to be here.

Although, I could have just missed the point, but oh well. That's my two cents.

[Oh, and as a disclaimer I never said you were against gays or anyone for that matter, that's just my opinion.]

 

[Mikodite]

I don't think I've ran into someone that was "I'm here, I'm queer, get over it" type. Course, I live in Canada, where, due to our cultural views of political correctness, such behaviour is seen as pulling some sort of card in an attempt gain an advantage over everyone else, and as Canadians tend to be in denial that racism, sexism, and homophobia exists in Canada this is seen as using your minority against the majority (after all, we are all equal, what is this, the States?). Therefore acting defensively regarding ones race, gender, or sexual orientation isn't expected to be taken seriously over here, and therefore it isn't done as much (and why no one questions why 'Little Mosque on the Prarie' exists in the first place and doesn't think Russel Peters isn't racist, it isn't all good), though there are cultures where this form of playing the victim card is taken deeply seriously.

 

[lovest harding]

Dear Fenra,

You may think there is no difference between gay people and straight people, and that is very admirable of you. But you are missing some important points.

Gay people and Straight people are not treated the same in society. And the difference in treatment can affect your personality. It is not as if a person is making "gay their personality"--rather that, having your parents kick you out of your home, or being fired, or not being allowed to marry, or being beaten up, or being told you are going to hell, or that you don't actually exist, etc...that can have an effect on your personality...and in some environments, it can come to be a very important part of your personal life.

When I was in the Army, being queer was a central part of my personality. Why? Because I, at all times, had to worry that someone might learn I was queer and then I might be put in jail. I had undercover cops try to infiltrate my circle of friends to see if they could find out if there were any queer people on my base so they could arrest them. My straight friends would casually talk about their dating life and ask me about mine. I had to create and maintain and remember an elaborate set of lies so they wouldn't catch on to who I really was. I always had to make sure I didn't do or say anything that might give me away. And when I met with the few gay friends I had, where I could for a few moments be relaxed, we all had to make sure that no one saw us meeting together and to make sure no one knew where I was or who I was with. I had to pretend not to care when I read in the Army Times that a friend of mine was the last person kicked out of the service under the pre-Don't Ask Don't Tell policy. I had to see friends put in prison. I had to ponder, do I engage in a fake marriage to make me safer. I had to deal with friends who were raped, but couldn't report because the rapist was blackmailing them....threatening to expose their homosexuality. I had a friend who was sent to prison for engaging in oral sex, and then had his religious family disown him. Do you think those experiences didn't effect my personality and who I am?

Deep on the inside, in a perfect world, is there a difference between gays and non-gays? No. But there is a real difference between how they are treated, and that difference in treatment then effects who you are.

So. Gay Pride. You think Gay Pride is about making Gay your personality. I'd say Gay Pride is about many different things than that. It is about 1) commemorating the Stonewall Riots and remember how far we have come in the struggle for civil rights and how far we have to go. 2) it is about fighting the dominant messages of society that being gay is something shameful or not to be mentioned, 3) it is a way to see that you are not alone. Especially if you don't live in a big gay freindly city, it is easy to think that you are the only queer person around, to feel very along and isolated...gay pride weekend is a way to reinforce community...much like a Sci-Fi or Gaming convention, or going to church on Sundays, or any other way people come together.

I read this.
And I've been trying to decide what to say in response. And I really can't. I just want to acknowledge that I've read this and that I think it was written incredibly well.

 

[intheweeds]

So, Escapists, I'd really like to know how you percieve the gay scene where you live. Did people get more selective because of Internet dating? Do you feel as part of the community? How did you start your friendship with other gay people?

WARNING LONG ANSWER!

A gay woman's (my) humble theory:

Honestly I think its an issue in any major city. In Canada at least the financial breakdown in terms of demographic goes like this (i can't find the report online to reference):

Richest-
1) Gay Men (usually have no children to support and are men. men make more money. fact)
2) Straight men (usually as adults have some children to support, but still are men so make good money)
3) Straight women (are women, so make less money for the same job, but not a scary butch so good for you, here's a raise!)
4) Gay women (pretty much not taken seriously anywhere. Makes less money for the same job than any other demographic. Often found doing manual labor alongside immigrants for shitty wages.)
- Poorest

I feel like this informs a few things. First there are over 9000 gay male bars in my city and the gay women have to deal with the few clubs that throw a women's night. gay men have money, gay women do not.

money = power for all types. It stands to reason that gay men would be more exclusive. Like all rich people they for the most part have no time for you if you are not a)wealthy or in business or b)good looking, young and looking for a sugar daddy.

Again, my opinion based on my experience. I agree Gay men can be catty. I have friend from high school who is exactly the same age as me, has come from the same hometown and situation as me. He makes an absolutely stupid amount of money (for someone who never graduated high school) promoting gay clubs. Everyone from my high school stays in contact, but he hasn't had the time of day for anyone in years. I have two diplomas, but I could never hope to have the kind of money he has simply 'fallen' into. Why? He is young and good looking and a gay man in a big city. Period. I wish this was an isolated example, but it's not. In my city Gay men run business. That's the joke people make, it's like the 'jews own hollywood' thing, but for gays.

How i met my friends was easy, gay women are not as exclusive as gay men. Walking into the nearest gay bar is a quick way to feel really lonely and stupid (unless you work out to a crazy degree and/or have a cute face and nice ass - then your fresh meat). Unfortunately, gay men only go to the bar to cruise and pick up so it will be hard to meet a guy for friendship there. They immediately think your trying to pick them up. Gay male pick-up rituals are intense and quick.

If you are asking how you can meet some gay men, I would suggest trying to meet some gay women. Just to get into the community. Gay women have gay male friends, i feel like that would be an easy way to filter the 'exclusive' gay men out. 'Exclusive' gay men won't be caught dead being friends with a dyke. Hell, i'll be your friend. I know a few cool gay guys if your ever near Toronto.

P.S. It has nothing to do with internet dating where i am, gay men are exclusive without any help from the internet. The net just helps them find blow-jobs faster.

 

[Xerosch]

I honestly don't know where you are coming from here. Gay people don't differ all that much from others when it comes to just talking and getting to know them. Sounds to me like you have some sort of difficulty with talking to them and erected some walls that aren't really there. I dunno.

The few people you have met =/= all gays; whose only thing that connects them in any way is that they are gay.

Also, i'm gay and I don't like Gay Pride really but I don't think it's right to spray us all with the same paint just because you saw a large group of gay people celebrating. The gay people you saw are not ALL THE GAY PEOPLE. :S

People, just to clarify: I am gay myself and have been living in Munich for more than 8 years now.

I didn't start this thread because I'm frustrated I didn't get laid this weekend or just to *****, I am seriously interested in how you percieve the gay community in other countries if you're part of it. That's why I posed questions at the end of my OT.

Sorry if I offended someone here, that really wasn't my intention!

 

[eoghanryder]

You didn't offend me, I was just pointing out that not all gay people agree with Gay Pride. Happy Sunday! :L

 

[intheweeds]

EDIT: I would also like to acknowledge that I don't have gay pride. The same way I do not have pride in my country. I love being gay and I love America, but I did nothing in either of those to be proud of. I didn't fight for the freedom of America, so I have no right be proud of its accomplishments. I did not fight to be gay. I am incredibly happy to be in both of those communities. Sometimes it sucks, but usually it's wonderful. I am thankful for what people who came before me did, but I'm not proud of something I had no part in creating.

I completely agree with you for what it's worth. I feel like the use of the word 'Pride' is a poor choice of word for the events. It implies 'pride' as a definition but i don't think any of us are really 'proud' in the way you are describing. I'm not sure what word i would use in it's place, but i agree with you.

 

[Dags90]

Richest-
1) Gay Men (usually have no children to support and are men. men make more money. fact)
2) Straight men (usually as adults have some children to support, but still are men so make good money)
3) Straight women (are women, so make less money for the same job, but not a scary butch so good for you, here's a raise!)
4) Gay women (pretty much not taken seriously anywhere. Makes less money for the same job than any other demographic. Often found doing manual labor alongside immigrants for shitty wages.)

There are serious problems with this. Studies have shown that gay men earn less than their heterosexual counter parts in large sectors of the job market, and lesbian women earn more than their heterosexual counterparts.[footnote]http://workinprogress.blogs.time.com/2007/10/25/gay_men_earn_less_but_not_lesb/[/footnote] I'm not sure if this also applies to Canada, but the myth that "Gay men make more money" is one that is still prevalent in the U.S. and is dangerous in the face of significant inequality.

Gay men usually do have more disposable income, due to being less likely to have dependents, but so are lesbian women.

I also think it's a serious mistake to conflate the mainstream gay community with gay men generally. There innumerable "non-scene" gay men.

 

[intheweeds]

can someone shed some light onto why this guy got a warning for starting this thread? Here is my opinion about that since i don't know how to contact the mods:

Dear mods,

This guy has a legitimate question. We gays are more than capable of voicing our opinion and don't need protecting here, but thanks for treating us like we do. It really makes us feel like the true victims you must think we are.

intheweeds

There is a chance i'm being overly sensitive here, but if we really want homophobia and racism to go away, we have to stop treating everyone who has a less than glowing comment as a bigot and actually ask these questions. We have to talk about these things. I feel like it causes more damage to silence dissenters than it does to dissent in the first place.

 

[lovest harding]

EDIT: I would also like to acknowledge that I don't have gay pride. The same way I do not have pride in my country. I love being gay and I love America, but I did nothing in either of those to be proud of. I didn't fight for the freedom of America, so I have no right be proud of its accomplishments. I did not fight to be gay. I am incredibly happy to be in both of those communities. Sometimes it sucks, but usually it's wonderful. I am thankful for what people who came before me did, but I'm not proud of something I had no part in creating.

I completely agree with you for what it's worth. I feel like the use of the word 'Pride' is a poor choice of word for the events. It implies 'pride' as a definition but i don't think any of us are really 'proud' in the way you are describing. I'm not sure what word i would use in it's place, but i agree with you.

Super Gay Awesome Fun Time Party is my choice.
But seriously, it may just be semantics, but I really dislike the word pride in this context. I think it even gives this awkward sense of entitlement (which is how the world sees the U.S. and how a lot of anti-gay groups see the gay community, that we somehow are entitled to more than everyone else).