A question to the grown adult men of the Escapist

[RhombusHatesYou]

Getting drunk makes you do things you wouldn't normally do, but it doesn't make you things you don't want to do.

Yeah, lowered inhibitions and impaired judgement are not a good mix, as my police record can attest to. I have no fucking idea why I did half the shit I've gotten into trouble for except for it seemed like a really good idea at the time... Also, cops have very little sense of humour.

 

[goldendriger]

Well if she has no self control to say "Thats enough booze" and says "Sure, bone me" then she can accept the conciquences, if she can drink, she's an adult and its up to her what happens.

 

[intheweeds]

Here is the situation. First of all, notice that I am female so this is most definitely not me we are talking about and the situation didn't happen to me, but never the less affects me deeply. Anyway here is the scenario:

A girl is very drunk. An 8-9 on the 1-10 scale of sober to passed out drooling. You know her, you know she has a serious partner and would never entertain you sober. You come on to her asking if you can touch her. she agrees. she seems into it. She asks you several times if you have a condom and you say no, but have sex with her anyway. She doesn't stop you.

I know scales suck, please explain yourself if you reply. On a scale of 1 to 10 where 1 is 'extremely sweet and respectful towards women' and 10 is 'this guy would have fucked her if she was passed out', how bad and/or normal is this guys mindset?

I obviously don't understand male sexuality at all and in my eyes this is extremely disgusting. Like, devastatingly disgusting. I have been in a situation where a girl was naked and begging for it and i left. She was so drunk and horny she was actually pissed at me at the time. But I couldn't have lived with myself the next day, I knew she would never have been there if she wasn't beyond capacity hammered.

What do you think?

Edit: She didn't come on to him, he came on to her and she didn't stop it or say no specifically. I hope that clears that up.

Edit 2: Yes he had also been drinking, but I am of the type that believes, like some posters that being drunk doesn't excuse behavior. In the example I gave of myself in the same situation, I was not only wasted, i was also (for better or worse) super high on coke (it was a long time ago). This means that, yes, she has some blame here for her own actions. She knows that and hates herself, but putting that aside, it's the guys side of this i'm interested in really just now.

Edit 3: I really wanted to try and keep it very impersonal so as to respect the situation and the fact that i have turned to the internet to understand it. I am the 'bloke' she 'cheated' on, so i am very much involved. It is an awkward situation and i love her very much, we have been together for four years and just moved in together. I wish to respect her here - she is absolutely disgusted with herself and can't stop crying. She knows she is wrong as well and neither of us are unclear about that fact, I'm just very curious about men's thoughts about this. Understand I'm not trying to hate on men. My experience with them sexually is limited I just wanted a gauge of your thoughts.

The devil is in the details in cases like this. The first question of course is WHERE this happened. To be entirely honest a lot of girls like to get messed up and head out to screw around like that because it's exciting, and set themselves up on purpose. If this girl is in a local pick up bar and gets that smashed, it's not surprising that she hooked up with some local guy she knows for some casual sex.

In cases where girls want more control over this kind of situation they tend not to go to these places alone, and have some other girls as "drinking buddies" to watch their back so to speak and keep an eye on who they take to bed with them or whatever.

To be honest guys do the same thing, and get picked up and taken advantage of themselves, it's just that society tends to pay less attention to the flip side of the equasion.

Now on the other hand if this was someplace like a private party where she got smashed expecting there not to be much in the way of a sexual atmosphere for whatever reason, and the guy took advantage, that might be something else entirely given the nature of the location and gathering. Of course then again with certain kinds of parties (the "wild" kind) it's the same basic thing as the singles bar. A mutal friend's birthday or something being a bit differant than say heading down to the local frat house the day after midterms end or whatever.

Also asking the opinions of people on the internet doesn't work for things like this as you really need to know the people involved. Your opinion is fairly obvious, and it's pretty clear what side your on, I'm in no position to dispute your take on the situation due to a simple lack of knowlege. To be honest just because this girl is with someone doesn't mean she didn't also like this guy even if she considered him "beneath her" and set that entire thing up so deniability could be involved. Questions like "how drunk was she really" very much come into the equasion. Also she says she didn't come onto him, and I'm guessing he's being a gentleman (guys won't say when girls come onto them a lot of times), but that doesn't mean it's true.

In the end it's done, and it's for the people involved (girl, guy, boyfriend) to sort out. Stuff like this happens, and really I think it's a case where life is going to just go on.

As far as not understanding male sexuality, well it goes the other way as well, the whole thing about "gender politics" is a recurring joke in society. In reality I think both sides understand each other quite well, and men and women aren't as differant as they like to try and pretend.

To be honest I think this is relatively mild.

I don't know if it changes anything for you but i will change the original post you're right setting is important here. This was the last night of the summer work party at a farm out of town. She was already hammered and stuck there having planned to stay before he arrived. He was the bosses wife's brother.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Yeah, lowered inhibitions and impaired judgement are not a good mix, as my police record can attest to. I have no fucking idea why I did half the shit I've gotten into trouble for except for it seemed like a really good idea at the time... Also, cops have very little sense of humour.

And as your record will attest to, all that shit you did while drunk is on you. No one shrugged and said "Aw well, drunk...I guess we give it a pass". Cheating is frequently a big deal in our society, although that's slightly dependent on the couple in question. Clearly it was a big deal to the boyfriend. I find it hard to believe a few drinks OBLITERATED her ethics and judgment but left her cogent enough to recognize a condom was in order before they got down to the fuckin'.

 

[rsvp42]

I don't personally think it was right to do it, but I completely understand how a guy could get to the point where he doesn't care and just goes for it. There's a belief out there among many guys that a girl's boyfriend (or girlfriend, as the case may be) is her responsibility. Guys hit on girls because we have to play the field. We're expected to make the move, which often means rejection (just how it goes). It's a girl's job to get rid of us if she's not into it. So invitations like what you described--even drunk ones--can be taken as a green light, especially when the guy is drunk too.

TL;DR - He was a horny guy; she was a willing girl. Everything beyond that is just poor logistics.

P.S. I had a time once where a drunk girl (who I was dating) wanted me to stay at a party and do it. She didn't say so explicitly, but it was obvious (and confirmed later). I told myself I was being a respectful gentleman by "not taking advantage of her." To this day I regret not going back. Honor and self-respect are great, but sometimes you just gotta go for it.

 

[Princess Rose]

I have some wonderful men in my life of all ages who i love and trust. Some of them have warned me to be careful around men. More than one has told me "men think differently when it comes to sex, you can't trust them", during a conversation about how i should be careful. I don't want to paint men with any kind of brush, but what is a woman supposed to think when she is being told by trusted men that men cannot be trusted when it comes to sex? Obviously not all men are pigs, I'm being told these things by men i love and trust and who have my best interests at heart? A few of which I have had sex with and are very definitely not pigs? Paradox anyone?

So should i not be worried about men and sex?

EDIT: wow that came off bad. I'm not trying to sound evil. I really just don't understand. That was the reason for making this thread in the first place was to get guys true thoughts rather than whatever i can figure out with my limited understanding of men's minds.

Well, I think what those guys told you was an attempt to explain a very simple fact about men:

They think with their dicks.

That is to say, when an opportunity to get laid occurs, they will often ignore all the rational warning bells in their head to take advantage of the situation that leads to orgasm town the fastest.

Now, guys, before you get upset with me, I realize that this doesn't apply to all of you. Some very respectable and intelligent members of the male sex have taken it upon themselves to be better than that stereotype. To actually think about what they're doing in a situation like that, and to see the consequences instead of the immediate reward.

What your male friends were telling you is that many, many men choose not to.

And worse, many men will actively work the other direction, lying and manipulating to get laid, and then turn around and be ass-hats.

Also, to be fair, it sounds like you were talking to some "White Knights" who were trying to protect you from the other nasty men. That tendency could come from a couple of places - mildly chauvinistic protectiveness, sexual interest (they wanted you, so they warned you away from all other males on the planet), or concern about a specific individual (they knew someone unpleasant who had an unhealthy interest in you and were trying to warn you off). I can't be sure, but those are reasons I've encountered before.

Anyway, to your final question, should you worry about men and sex... yes. But you should also worry about women and sex.

Your girlfriend did something very bad to you, and she seems to be trying to weasel her way out of it by putting all the blame on her male counterpart. And, while he is likely MORE to blame than she is, as has been pointed out, if she was speaking clearly, asking about condoms, and REMEMBERS the events to be able to tell you about them... then she was sober enough to at least realize that what she was about to do would hurt you.

I'm not saying you should break up with her. That isn't my business. And, hell, even if it was, I've cheated before (not on my spouse, but during previous, less open relationships), so I'm usually a proponent of forgiveness. As I am in this case.

What I am saying is that men and women are BOTH dangerous creatures. Every person, male, female, or in-between, has the potential to be a kind and wonderful person, or a vile ass-hat. Or anything in-between. Tread with care.

 

[XboxMySocks]

All I can say is if alcohol isn't an excuse, then why are you holding just the man and not the woman accountable?

 

[Smokej]

[...]

first of all you should know that putting out a thread with such a title lures out all of those 18 years old basement-dwellers who want to prove how manly and mature they are but don't have any connection whatsoever to a livestyle (clubs, drugs and easy girls...) where this is happens at a regular basis. Which leads to the second point, asking this question for example in a forum which actually deals with "adult" lifestyle in a major city should give you a more realistic view on this subject than posting it in a gaming / nerd culture related forum...

ot, as a person who is still living a pretty hedonistic lifestyle (for the better and worse), i have done it, would pretty much do it again if the circumstances fit. Motivation in this case is more personal gain / ego related than pure pleasure (given that the women would be out of my reach otherwise)

closer friends and people i meet a lot outside of those situations are of course a no-go as are "plain" women (i know thats sounds cheap as hell but that wouldn't give me the fix...)

 

[Alexlion]

how long is a piece of string, i know how id react and id know others might not do the same. Just because we are all men we dont think alike.

 

[Ulquiorra4sama]

You choose to start drinking while sober and before you get properly smashed you will still have your common sense with you to stop. If you drink yourself beyond common sense then you're not really in any position to complain about what happened when it comes back to slap to you in the face.

Also... i'd like to know how drunk the guy was before making any real statement here, but if he was also smashed then i'd just shrug it off as them just losing themselves to the alcohol, reverting to the primal stage where bigami(bigamy?) isn't really that much of a problem.

 

[CannibalCorpses]

I'm sure anybody over the age of 25 thats male has had sexual partners that they cant remember the name of, the face of or anything else for that matter due to the first and only contact being under the influence of alcahol.

I have had WAY more many partners than I would like to count. (That's not bragging, its actually a bit embarrassing to me). I have NEVER been in that situation. I have been in situations where there was a girl interested in something who was wasted and I've turned them down. A few of those girls got mad at me, a few later thanked me (and I often got some then).

The type of man you are talking about is not a man in my book.

The type of man i am talking about is me, a complete wreck head that loves to get so smashed on a night out its a miracle i get home at all. I don't go out (like some of my friends) to get laid, i go out to have a laugh and get wasted and the side effect of that is the occasional one nighter but that said it usually turns into more.

Maybe that lack of manliness is what attracts them back

 

[INF1NIT3 D00M]

I'm not going to do that. I'm going to tell you what I tell everyone who informs me that they've been cheated on. I'll give it to you logically, then you can decide what to do.
I think you need to kick this chick to the curb.

After four years of being together? With nary a single instance of cheating beforehand?

For a start, 'cheating' to me implies a decision to betray somebody. This 'chick' sounds like she was not in a state to intentionally do anything at all, even protest at what was going on. The fact that she was honest about what happened and sounds upset by it seems to indicate that her loyalties are in the right place when she's sober.
Secondly; a lot of people find it easier to forgive and ultimately resume trusting somebody than you seem to be able to. Humans are fallible. If you expect a partner to be inhumanly loyal, even when in an altered mental state, then you are probably expecting too much.

A reasonable expectation would be that the girl would not get in such a bad state again, or at least not in the company of people that are likely to take advantage.

You make a good point. I expect my significant other to not be in a heavily altered state in the first place, and my post heavily bases itself off of that. I hold everyone accountable for all their actions, altered state of mind or not. The fairness of that policy doesn't really phase me much. If my girlfriend (of 3 years, mind) were to do what the OP's girlfriend did, our relationship would be over. That's part of the terms of our relationship. Neither of us impairs our mental functions intentionally, and regardless of the situation we've agreed that we are exclusive sexual partners. I'm not saying I'd never talk to her again, or that I'd hate her forever, but if one of us cheats or gets drunk/high we're over as a monogamous relationship. I did clarify in the next sentence that those would be my actions if I were the OP, and I did go on to say that she could try to forgive her girlfriend.

I don't expect people to be inhumanly loyal. I know that human beings are fallible. That's exactly why my girlfriend and I have agreed to avoid situations where our (already human) judgement is impaired further. It's very hard to ask someone to be monogamous with you when they have a tendency to impair their better judgement. There's a fine line between having a good time at a party or bar and doing something stupid at a party or bar. People who are drunk or high have lots of trouble walking fine lines. People who are prone to impairing their judgement are therefore prone to having trouble walking fine lines. I don't consider them to be desirable mates, and I don't feel sorry for people who date and are subsequently hurt by these mates. I tell them to learn from it and move on.

 

[Hagi]

Very simple: it's 100% the girl's fault.

Alcohol does not excuse your actions. You got yourself drunk, you're responsible for everything you do while drunk. You know you'll do stupid shit when you get very drunk so the solution is extremely simple: do not get very drunk.

I consider EVERYONE (no exceptions of any kind) that gets as drunk as the person you described to be either immature, depressed or an alcoholic.

Children who don't know how to handle alcohol get that drunk, depressed people who don't care any more get that drunk and alcoholics who can't do without get that drunk. Nobody else as far as I'm concerned.

This means your girlfriend is one of those three. In all cases I'd dump her and tell her to sort herself out. Mature and healthy people do not ever get that drunk. They get intoxicated but they know their limits, they're not children any more.

Either your girlfriend doesn't know her limits or she's incapable of sticking to them. Either way, dump her.

 

[Evidencebased]

...

A girl is very drunk. An 8-9 on the 1-10 scale of sober to passed out drooling. You know her, you know she has a serious partner and would never entertain you sober. You come on to her asking if you can touch her. she agrees. she seems into it. She asks you several times if you have a condom and you say no, but have sex with her anyway. She doesn't stop you.

I know scales suck, please explain yourself if you reply. On a scale of 1 to 10 where 1 is 'extremely sweet and respectful towards women' and 10 is 'this guy would have fucked her if she was passed out', how bad and/or normal is this guys mindset?

I obviously don't understand male sexuality at all and in my eyes this is extremely disgusting. Like, devastatingly disgusting.
...

I'm not a guy, but I agree with you that it's disgusting behavior. I think hitting on someone that drunk is wrong, hitting on someone in an exclusive relationship is wrong, and having sex with someone without a condom (when they ask for one) is wrong. Even at my drunkest I would never do something I thought the other person would feel ashamed of the next morning.

It sounds like this guy knew exactly what he was doing -- if he knew she'd never agree sober, then I think he was waiting for her to get drunk so he could take advantage of that. He got some kind of verbal consent from her, apparently, so it's not rape, but I think it's pretty damn close. Definitely predatory behavior, and definitely a shitty move; as for the scale I'm going to say he's a "9" but I wouldn't be hugely surprised if he were a "10" in other situations and had made a move on women too drunk to speak, because he obviously doesn't care how she truly feels and is just interested in getting an "okay" through any means.

Personally I believe that adult men should be held to the same standards as any adult; if you could reasonably expect any other drunk to not behave like that then you can expect the same respect and decency out of a man. Plenty of guys would never stoop this low, so anyone trying to play it off as "oh, you know how guys are..." is full of it. This guy knew she wouldn't consent sober, so he went after her drunk; that's inexcusable.

As for your girlfriend, I really hope she's doing okay. Whether or not it was rape in the legal sense, it sounds like she did not fully consent and she sounds like she feels taken advantage of. "She doesn't stop you" is not consent in my book, and I doubt it is considered consent by most non-assholes either. If it were my boyfriend or girlfriend I'd probably cut them a lot of slack because this situation sounds a lot closer to rape than to cheating. It's not clear to me how much of conscious decision she was able to make -- even though she was not physically unconscious -- and obviously she's punishing herself over it more than anyone else could.

 

[Herr Uhl]

Once a woman has ingested alcohol it's Rape simple.

In this case, most married (straight or lesbian) couples have at least one being a rapist. It is a gross oversimplification.

 

[intheweeds]

Ok I was being facetious about the baseball bat thing. But I still stand by my point that this guy really deserves to be on the receiving end of some freshly served revenge. It's scum like him that give everyone born with a penis a bad name and who actually lend some weight to the 'all men are pigs' argument. If nothing else I'd teach him a lesson he wouldn't forget in the hope that t would make him think twice about doing it again, thus protecting the next unfortunate soul who happens to be drunk in his presence.

I figured you were probably using a little rhetoric but if the OP is half as angry as I suspect then there's a possibility she could decide that option makes sense.

I'd just point out that it sounds like the girl was a willing participant and that this guy was drunk. The problem with saying he's 'drunk' is that he could be Dutch courage drunk or staggering drunk.

I am ragingly pissed it's true. Violent thoughts occur, yes, but i am mature enough to know i'm having a reaction. I'm actually a very sexually open person, it's not that i hate men or anything, i'm just ragingly pissed at this one guy right now. He is in no danger physically, but if i ever saw him he would very definitely have to endure some very loud and rude things being said about him in public. My younger self I admit would not have as much restraint.