A Response to Extra Credits "Learning from Other M."

[Azure-Supernova]

I forgot to actually post on topic. I still don't buy the PTSD Ridley encounter Samus has in Other M though. She's only fought the bugger on three seperate ocassions before and has seen him 'die' twice.

Another comic? Jeez. Where the hell have I been that I missed that?

I have no idea, it's not the first or last but it's the most reliable in terms of canonicity given that it links the added content of Zero Mission.

And what, specifically, does Other: M contradict in this comic? To be perfectly honest, I've never heard of it. I'd also like to know what canon Other: M contradicts in the games that is actually stated, not inferred by the player.

Adam's personality, though a hard ass he isn't such a bad guy. But Samus refers to Zebesians as wild, unintelligent animals when not being led. Though in Prime and Zero Mission, Zebesian Space Pirates were perfectly capable of organising themselves and even manning their spacecraft in the absence or Mother Brain or Ridley. Given that Ridley, Kraid and co. are also Zebesians it just doesn't make sense.

There's also a little slip up about Mother Brain's extent of control over Metroids and a few smushed up details in the flashback to the fight. It's mostly petty fan stuff.

 

[DocBalance]

Are we now putting crappy game development and their down right retarded ideas to "she had a bad day"?
You really want to let this slide and tell them it's ok to do more like it?

No, like not at all. Did you even read the OP? It'd be more like "She had a bad life in which everyone, literally everyone that she ever knew was killed in single day." I'm also not explaining away all the faults of Other: M, and freely admit that it wasn't a great game and the story was poorly executed. I'm merely defending the core concepts, not their execution.

 

[Mr. Omega]

I don't think they made Samus weak (for most of the game). I think they made her ANNOYING. THAT'S the big sin for me. I don't think they greatly betrayed the character (they did kinda, but in a way that you might have been willing to overlook if it wasn't for everything else), they just presented this "new" Samus in a way that makes me reach for the "mute" button on my remote any time she starts monologuing. Which happens way to often. It wasn't the idea: giving her traumas, a weakness, a person she kinda cares for in some way, that's all well and good, if done right. BUT IT WASN'T DONE RIGHT.

 

[DocBalance]

I don't think they made Samus weak (for most of the game). I think they made her ANNOYING. THAT'S the big sin for me. I don't think they greatly betrayed the character (they did kinda, but in a way that you might have been willing to overlook if it wasn't for everything else), they just presented this "new" Samus in a way that makes me reach for the "mute" button on my remote any time she starts monologuing. Which happens way to often. It wasn't the idea: giving her traumas, a weakness, a person she kinda cares for in some way, that's all well and good, if done right. BUT IT WASN'T DONE RIGHT.

And I agree with you. I'm just saying don't throw the baby out with the bath water. The EC team, and the gaming community at large, seems to want to sweep Other: M under the rug and forget it happened, or reboot the majority of it's concepts to return to Samus's "roots". However, I think with better voice acting and about 80% less monologuing, the game as it is could work. The execution was just really, really poor.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Are we now putting crappy game development and their down right retarded ideas to "she had a bad day"?
You really want to let this slide and tell them it's ok to do more like it?

No, like not at all. Did you even read the OP? It'd be more like "She had a bad life in which everyone, literally everyone that she ever knew was killed in single day." I'm also not explaining away all the faults of Other: M, and freely admit that it wasn't a great game and the story was poorly executed. I'm merely defending the core concepts, not their execution.

The core concepts are always good but they stay with the developer, it's the execution that we players haveto endure and we haveto call it shit so the developers execute it better next time.
There is alot of game characters who went down the "lost everyone" path, but noone made them this fucking horrible... well atleast we can call it something new.

 

[DocBalance]

No offence, but you're reading into this too much. I get where your coming from, but from what I've read (I havent played the game, but I've read the plot on Wikipedia, and have heard a lot about it on online forums such as this site) it just seems like the developer didnt know what to do with the character. This is Team Ninja we're talking about, what you're getting from this is quite clearly beyond most developers, especially the inventors of jiggle physics. Samus is pretty much the best female character in games, Other M portrayed her as a whiny b*tch, deliberately or not, and ultimately listening to a whining b*tch ,with one of the worst voice actors I've ever heard (YouTube videos), monologuing for a few hours probably caused a lot of players' hard feelings towards the game and character. Or maybe I'm full of sh*t and your right.

And as EC clearly stated, Team Ninja didn't write this. Yoshio Sakamoto, the man who helped co-create Metroid, did. If anyone understands the character, I'd say it's probably him. I think people forget that Team Ninja mostly worked on gameplay, not story. Did they have some impact? Yes. But the stories to Team Ninja's games aren't bad. Was the execution of said story bad? Yes. But that kind of misses the point of my post.

The core concepts are always good but they stay with the developer, it's the execution that we players haveto endure and we haveto call it shit so the developers execute it better next time.
There is alot of game characters who went down the "lost everyone" path, but noone made them this fucking horrible... well atleast we can call it something new.

Again, I don't disagree with you that the game wasn't good. I don't even disagree that the execution was done shoddily, I state that quite clearly in the OP. However, the core concepts should be preserved, and that's what everyone is missing. Yes, most of the game is shit, but it's shit that's wrapped around a diamond the size of my head, and I for one will happily dig through the excrement to preserve that.

 

[Aerograt]

The fact that she wouldn't turn on the Varia Suit is abysmally stupid because she is a professional bounty hunter. The only reason I can think of for her to not turn on a purely defensive upgrade was to not hurt Adam's feelings because he has zero authority over her. She is supposed to know what she is doing, hell she turns on the Space Jump and Screw Attack without Adam's permission when he shuts up for reasons that aren't really explained. I mean really, she chose that particular moment to not be a total dip shit?. Samus also had no reason at all to hesitate when seeing Ridley (again) and let the "Remember me" guy get pseudo killed. Don't give the post traumatic stress excuse, Samus has killed Ridley after he was been brought back to life multiple times, Ridley being cloned is nothing even remotely close to new.

Finally... Adam being an abusive father figure... No...

 

[Aiedail256]

I've heard this from just about every corner of the Internet, how everything Other: M did was contrary to what we know about Samus. I contest this: It's contrary to everything we THOUGHT we knew about Samus.

The customer's always right.
/topic

 

[funguy2121]

OP is based pretty much entirely on speculation. What the video stated at the end, though, is true: we were given enough info on Samus' character through her actions that she was not a blank slate. OP appears to be very intent on defending what I found to be overall a fairly enjoyable game, but I think it's flaws are undeniable. Poor organization and micro-managing hurt this game. Hell, if it hadn't been spearheaded by one of Nintendo's big shots I wouldn't be surprised if they dismissed it from the canon in a few years.

The Ridley argument also makes no sense. You argued that Samus only fought "robot versions" of Ridley since the first Metroid. Let me then point you to Super Metroid, Metroid Prime and Metroid Prime: Corruption, all three of which feature flesh-and-blood, familiar as ever, purple-colored Ridley.

As for "no other outcome," that makes absolutely no sense. OP seemed to have forgotten that the character walked away from the military lifestyle for exactly the same reason that there is no way she would ignore her suit powers when her life was in danger, so her army background wouldn't command her to act in such a suicidal way.

Now, someone please explain just what the Hell Phantoon was doing showing up for no good reason at the end of the game.

 

[Aerograt]

Mate, he forces her to run through a fiery cave without any protection when all she has to do is flip a switch to save herself. He is constantly dismissive, demeaning, and cold to her. If the second isn't abusive, the first clearly is.

"Mate", that part was only in there to shoe horn in a reason for eventually needing to acquire the Varia Suit like in most Metroid games. It had nothing to do with blatant abuse, it was a result of a shitty and inconsistent script.

 

[DocBalance]

"Mate", that part was only in there to shoe horn in a reason for eventually needing to acquire the Varia Suit like in most Metroid games. It had nothing to do with blatant abuse, it was a result of a shitty and inconsistent script.

Sure, if you want to assume that the game is just a piece of shit through and through. Or, you can respect that the man who wrote the story helped co-create Metroid, and the character itself. But hey, that doesn't mean he has any idea what the character is like, right?

 

[Mithain]

Since you like analysing your characters have you tried analysing Samus without taking other M into account? Also you seem to have missed a few details. If the chozo trained her to be an unstoppable killing machine why does she seem to have such great respect and admiration for their work? In other games she is aggressive and dominant. She recieves salutes and admiration from other soldiers and bountyhunters. Even in Prime 3 (where she is given much more characterization than most people say) the other bountyhunters exclaim her to be the best, perhaps even a bit ruthless to her enemies. But they all like her and speak to her as a collegue or friend would. This doesn't rhyme well with your arguments to her post-traumatic stress disorder.

In fact i would claim that in the other games before other-m she doesn't seem to have any disorder at all. She seems to be a reasonably well-adjusted person who happens to be a proffessional killer and former soldier. Of course she carries a lot of bagage, everyone does. But it would be silly to think that a character who has shown such strength and resiliance in other parts of her life that have been much more frightening and indeed reminded her just as much of the killing of her people as meeting Ridley in Other-M would freeze up like that. She has to me always seemed strong-willed enough to handle most frightening and shocking situations she had to deal with.

As for her relationship with Adam in other-M i do think it is redicolous, but not so much because of how Adam is portrayed but how she is portrayed. In Fusion it is quite apparent that Adam is a person she would follow into hell and back not because of any other reason than that she likes and respects him. Does she need more reason than that? I don't think so.

But the Samus in other-M is much like how you described. And if placed in context with earlier games your analysis could be applied. I don't agree however, Other-M does fit like a mold around the entire series if you wish it to, but the other games in the series don't fit around it. So i think it shouldn't and probably won't be accepted in the canon.

 

[funguy2121]

snippity snip snip

I've got a party to go to. I'll try to debate you when I get home in a few hours.

 

[Aerograt]

"Mate", that part was only in there to shoe horn in a reason for eventually needing to acquire the Varia Suit like in most Metroid games. It had nothing to do with blatant abuse, it was a result of a shitty and inconsistent script.

Sure, if you want to assume that the game is just a piece of shit through and through. Or, you can respect that the man who wrote the story helped co-create Metroid, and the character itself. But hey, that doesn't mean he has any idea what the character is like, right?

This game isn't completely terrible, however its only redeeming qualities are in the core gameplay of exploring, shooting things, and *new* dodging things with a neat roll move. Its script is not the diamond the size of your head you are speaking of because, and it doesn't matter who the script is written by if the script is BAD, it made Samus a joke.

 

[DocBalance]

This game isn't completely terrible, however its only redeeming qualities are in the core gameplay of exploring, shooting things, and *new* dodging things with a neat roll move. Its script is not the diamond the size of your head you are speaking of because, and it doesn't matter who the script is written by if the script is BAD, it made Samus a joke.

No, it made her human, and most people can't stand it. It turned her from an untouchable badass into a flawed, scared human being, who is only "independent" and "tough" because she can't handle real people or real emotions and is drawn into abusive relationships. It's who she's always been, Other: M just confirmed it.

Since you like analysing your characters have you tried analysing Samus without taking other M into account? Also you seem to have missed a few details. If the chozo trained her to be an unstoppable killing machine why does she seem to have such great respect and admiration for their work? In other games she is aggressive and dominant. She recieves salutes and admiration from other soldiers and bountyhunters. Even in Prime 3 (where she is given much more characterization than most people say) the other bountyhunters exclaim her to be the best, perhaps even a bit ruthless to her enemies. But they all like her and speak to her as a collegue or friend would. This doesn't rhyme well with your arguments to her post-traumatic stress disorder.

In fact i would claim that in the other games before other-m she doesn't seem to have any disorder at all. She seems to be a reasonably well-adjusted person who happens to be a proffessional killer and former soldier. Of course she carries a lot of bagage, everyone does. But it would be silly to think that a character who has shown such strength and resiliance in other parts of her life that have been much more frightening and indeed reminded her just as much of the killing of her people as meeting Ridley in Other-M would freeze up like that. She has to me always seemed strong-willed enough to handle most frightening and shocking situations she had to deal with.

As for her relationship with Adam in other-M i do think it is redicolous, but not so much because of how Adam is portrayed but how she is portrayed. In Fusion it is quite apparent that Adam is a person she would follow into hell and back not because of any other reason than that she likes and respects him. Does she need more reason than that? I don't think so.

But the Samus in other-M is much like how you described. And if placed in context with earlier games your analysis could be applied. I don't agree however, Other-M does fit like a mold around the entire series if you wish it to, but the other games in the series don't fit around it. So i think it shouldn't and probably won't be accepted in the canon.

Yes, and most people who knew me for the last several years couldn't tell you that every morning that I woke up alone I would have shouting matches with myself in the mirror. They couldn't tell you that I heard voices in my head, that I was repressing sociopathic urges, and that I had very little recollection of my day to day life. They would have described me as humorous, somewhat arrogant, intelligent, and a bit absent-minded. But I was still suffering from nearly five years of sleep deprivation and progressively worse psychological disorders. I'm living proof that disorders don't manifest easily if you are good enough at repressing them.

Does she need other motivation to follow Adam? No. She doesn't need any motivation, given that she is a collection of 1s and 0s whose motivation comes from lines of code. She didn't 'need' to have a Metroid latch on to her like she was its mother. She doesn't need to keep fighting. There didn't need to be another Metroid game after the first. Need isn't something that comes into the picture here.

The other games fit around it fine, as long as we ditch pre-conceived notions without any basis to them.

 

[RejjeN]

While I'm not quite agreeing with Adam being abusive, I do agree that Samus is not weak as a character for suffering from PTSD. And in regards to the comic: Didn't something VERY similar to what occured with Ridley in Other M happen when she first encounter Ridley (after getting her suit and stuff) in that? I'm pretty sure that was in the "official E-Manga". I originally thought it seemed overdone in Other M, but after reading up on PTSD it seems pretty logical considering her past.

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

While I'm not quite agreeing with Adam being abusive, I do agree that Samus is not weak as a character for suffering from PTSD. And in regards to the comic: Didn't something VERY similar to what occured with Ridley in Other M happen when she first encounter Ridley (after getting her suit and stuff) in that? I'm pretty sure that was in the "official E-Manga". I originally thought it seemed overdone in Other M, but after reading up on PTSD it seems pretty logical considering her past.

Like I said, as a victim of abuse myself I can't acknowledge said accusations as I find them to be tasteless and cheap, mostly done by people who have never experienced first-hand what it's like. Like I did emotionally and physically.

As for the PTSD episode, that's actually pretty much how PTSD works. Sometimes a person is crippled by it, sometimes episodes happen erratically. It's still something you can't really treat.

 

[funguy2121]

OP is based pretty much entirely on speculation. What the video stated at the end, though, is true: we were given enough info on Samus' character through her actions that she was not a blank slate. OP appears to be very intent on defending what I found to be overall a fairly enjoyable game, but I think it's flaws are undeniable. Poor organization and micro-managing hurt this game. Hell, if it hadn't been spearheaded by one of Nintendo's big shots I wouldn't be surprised if they dismissed it from the canon in a few years.

The Ridley argument also makes no sense. You argued that Samus only fought "robot versions" of Ridley since the first Metroid. Let me then point you to Super Metroid, Metroid Prime and Metroid Prime: Corruption, all three of which feature flesh-and-blood, familiar as ever, purple-colored Ridley.

As for "no other outcome," that makes absolutely no sense. OP seemed to have forgotten that the character walked away from the military lifestyle for exactly the same reason that there is no way she would ignore her suit powers when her life was in danger, so her army background wouldn't command her to act in such a suicidal way.

Now, someone please explain just what the Hell Phantoon was doing showing up for no good reason at the end of the game.

(1)Ridley was Meta-Ridley for all of those appearances. He was part robot, reconstructed from the pieces she left of him. I've checked my facts on this a dozen times.

(2)Yes, it's mostly speculation, just as the EC video is mostly speculation. The Metroid series is built on speculation, since they haven't told us anything up until this game. Kind of recurring trend.

(3)I'd like to see some evidence as to saying that she walked away from the military because they forced her to ignore her suit powers, if that's alright. I don't remember that, I just remember her leaving and collaborating with the military on several occasions with no objections to her suit powers until Adam showed up.

(1) What facts? Did you get this from manga or some other fan-fiction source? Unless Sakamoto-san has said that all the other Ridleys were cybernetically enhanced based on "the pieces she left of him" but somehow were yet not Ridley, up until the Other M one, there is no reason to believe this other than it helps to defend a game you like and the design choices involved. The Ridley at the end of Prime 1 has a mechanical look to it; the rest do not. The Prime games themselves state more than once that Ridley has "recovered" from your last attack.

(2) The only parts of the video involving speculation were about what went wrong at Nintendo and did not pertain to the story. Also, you seemed to miss out on the statements that I bolded and to have forgotten the claim you just made. They haven't told us anything up until this game? Well, not except that the pirates like to take a leftover Ridley-leg and build a robot around it every so often.

(3) Re-read the text you quoted. That's not the statement I made (I bolded it for you, above). Samus walked away from the military after a fellow soldier was left to die, and expected to sacrifice himself for everyone else - and this all from Other M's cinematics. That doesn't gel with the notion that she'd be subservient and sacrifice herself for her former commander. You should face facts - Other M was poorly organized, and in poor taste. Also, in what numerous other occasions did Samus work with the military? Are you referring to the two segments in Prime 3 as "several occasions?"

 

[Trolldor]

I tried to read it but there was just too much nonsense.

Let me explain to you why Samus' characterisation was so blatantly shit in 'Other M' - because up to that point she did what was necessary when it was necessary to survive. She never made it hard for herself because daddy didn't give her permission.

 

[-Dragmire-]

Yes, I realize she's killed him a dozen times by now, and I think that's the point: She's killed him in the original game, and he had to come back as a robot for most of his tenure through the other games.

You know, to this point I've always considered this piece of info to mean that Samus ends up killing Ridley, Ridley's family and robotic twin. This is mainly due to a clashing understanding of Ridley dying in each game coupled with the games connected timeline.

After all, no one implied there's only one giant lava space dragon in the universe... maybe it's just the family business.

I believe if the game was voiced in a language I didn't understand and had subtitles, it wouldn't have sounded so bed. For some reason, bad dialog doesn't sound as bad when reading it as opposed to hearing it.