A response to some arguments in anita sarkeesians interview.

[rbstewart7263]

http://www.destructoid.com/a-response-to-some-arguments-in-anita-sarkeesian-s-interview-230570.phtml

I thought this was lo great and wanted to post it.
long story short: destructoid interviews sarkeesian. One of the writers then writes a response.


An intelligent discussion finally amongst all the sillyness here lately. These things matter to me so im relieved to say the least.



captcha broken heart.

dont i know it. lol

 

[repeating integers]

Yeah, 'twas a good read, thanks for sharing.

Not gonna be watching her videos. We definitely need something like them, but from someone who actually knows what they're talking about.

 

[Smooth Operator]

See guys this is why you fire the assholes on your site so we can have proper articles.

Anyway he raises thoughts that I had over this from the start, her approach to this always seemed far more attention grubbing sensationalism then actually addressing the issues in a sensible logical manner.
Just because someone goes rooting for your cause doesn't mean they are doing it justice, and following blindly never went well.

 

[Kahunaburger]

This guy appears to be a fan of non sequitirs. "Yeah, this one character has high heels for no real reason... but she's a good character outside of that! That totally invalidates the impracticality of her outfit." Or "this one character in Bastion supposedly has no depth! But she double lampshade subverts the damsel in distress trope, and she doesn't wear a bikini!"

Maybe the Assassin's Creed counter-argument is okay, though. I liked their version of Caterina Sforza, and while Lucy is pretty non-existent as a character, so is every non-historical character in that game. Maybe it gets worse in the installments after ACII.

 

[Fr]anc[is]

I skimmed through both articles, and that one just seemed like an excuse to do some more link baiting.

 

[Frozen Donkey Wheel2]

This guy appears to be a fan of non sequitirs. "Yeah, this one character has high heels for no real reason... but she's a good character outside of that! That totally invalidates the impracticality of her outfit." Or "this one character in Bastion supposedly has no depth! But she double lampshade subverts the damsel in distress trope, and she doesn't wear a bikini!"

Uh, what? No. He explained why it's OK for the "Gravity Rush" character to wear high-high heels, thanks to the game's fiction. (Super powers and whatnot) And the fact that she just likes wearing high-heels. You know it's not sexist for a woman to dress sexily if she just likes to dress that way, right? Wouldn't it be MORE sexist if all female characters had to cover up to be considered legitimate?

And about Bastion, he also said that the game explains very little about ANY of the characters, regardless of gender. And the double-lampshade subverting bit is what MAKES her a stronger character, or at least stronger then Sarkessian claimed. How is that a non-sequitir?

And again, I can't stress this enough: If you have a truly strong female character, then it doesn't fucking MATTER what she's wearing.

 

[rbstewart7263]

This guy appears to be a fan of non sequitirs. "Yeah, this one character has high heels for no real reason... but she's a good character outside of that! That totally invalidates the impracticality of her outfit." Or "this one character in Bastion supposedly has no depth! But she double lampshade subverts the damsel in distress trope, and she doesn't wear a bikini!"

Maybe the Assassin's Creed counter-argument is okay, though. I liked their version of Caterina Sforza, and while Lucy is pretty non-existent as a character, so is every non-historical character in that game. Maybe it gets worse in the installments after ACII.

Appears to be does not make a thing true. He may appear so to you but maybe you wish his arguement invalidated vs sarkeesians opinion? perhaps im on the opposite side of that spectrum.(I like sarkessian but i also disagree.)

 

[Evilpigeon]

The original kickstarter video left me with little faith that she's going to be able to produce anything worth watching, this seems to back me up. I dunno, how are her other videos? Worth watching?

 

[Kahunaburger]

Appears to be does not make a thing true. He may appear so to you but maybe you wish his arguement invalidated vs sarkeesians opinion? perhaps im on the opposite side of that spectrum.(I like sarkessian but i also disagree.)

No, it's mostly that his counter-argument doesn't really counter-argue. He takes what is a critique of a specific thing that a game does, and responds by talking about other parts of the game. It's like saying "yeah, this game has a crappy camera, but the camera isn't really bad because the controls are tight."

This guy appears to be a fan of non sequitirs. "Yeah, this one character has high heels for no real reason... but she's a good character outside of that! That totally invalidates the impracticality of her outfit." Or "this one character in Bastion supposedly has no depth! But she double lampshade subverts the damsel in distress trope, and she doesn't wear a bikini!"

Uh, what? No. He explained why it's OK for the "Gravity Rush" character to wear high-high heels, thanks to the game's fiction. (Super powers and whatnot) And the fact that she just likes wearing high-heels. You know it's not sexist for a woman to dress sexily if she just likes to dress that way, right? Wouldn't it be MORE sexist if all female characters had to cover up to be considered legitimate?

She's not a real person. She's a character in a video game. She "chooses" to wear high heels into battle (and high heels work as combat gear in her universe) because the devs wanted their character to be wearing high heels and came up with an after-the-fact justification.

And about Bastion, he also said that the game explains very little about ANY of the characters, regardless of gender.

Not what I saw in the Bastion demo. Didn't play beyond that (because clickclickclickclickclick doesn't appeal to me) but the intro segment alone went quite a bit into how the main character feels about/relates to people/things/events.

And the double-lampshade subverting bit is what MAKES her a stronger character, or at least stronger then Sarkessian claimed. How is that a non-sequitir?

Because her point was that the character seemed to lack a personality. Having not playing Bastion, I can't speak to this, but "this character totally does something in the plot that is not what some other female characters do" is not an argument that the character has a personality.

 

[Evilpigeon]

Not what I saw in the Bastion demo. Didn't play beyond that (because clickclickclickclickclick doesn't appeal to me) but the intro segment alone went quite a bit into how the main character feels about/relates to people/things/events.

Because her point was that the character seemed to lack a personality. Having not playing Bastion, I can't speak to this, but "this character totally does something in the plot that is not what some other female characters do" is not an argument that the character has a personality.

Given that you have soley played the demo, please accept that the characterisation of Zia is adequate and that you really do find out more about her than you do the Kid. Sarkeesian is flat out wrong in that Zia is as in-depth as any of the other characters. I mean really you're arguing without any real knowledge of the game -.-

she aslo has an excellent song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jz8c17upEwM

 

[ToastiestZombie]

This guy appears to be a fan of non sequitirs. "Yeah, this one character has high heels for no real reason... but she's a good character outside of that! That totally invalidates the impracticality of her outfit." Or "this one character in Bastion supposedly has no depth! But she double lampshade subverts the damsel in distress trope, and she doesn't wear a bikini!"

Uh, what? No. He explained why it's OK for the "Gravity Rush" character to wear high-high heels, thanks to the game's fiction. (Super powers and whatnot) And the fact that she just likes wearing high-heels. You know it's not sexist for a woman to dress sexily if she just likes to dress that way, right? Wouldn't it be MORE sexist if all female characters had to cover up to be considered legitimate?

And about Bastion, he also said that the game explains very little about ANY of the characters, regardless of gender. And the double-lampshade subverting bit is what MAKES her a stronger character, or at least stronger then Sarkessian claimed. How is that a non-sequitir?

And again, I can't stress this enough: If you have a truly strong female character, then it doesn't fucking MATTER what she's wearing.

Yeah I agree, it's kind of more sexist to look at a female character that looks sexy, yet is amazingly developed and maybe even better than male characters in the game and write them off as sexist. Lara Croft is sexy, but she's also a badass who gets stuff done on her own. EVA from MGS3 was very sexy, yet it was her way of seducing Snake so she can get stuff done on her own. Yet I bet Anita Sarkeesian would say these two are sexist because they're sexy, which in my eyes is even more sexist. It's like saying "It's OK for a man to be sexy and a good character, but it's bad for a woman to be sexy and be a good character! Because that's sexist!"

I really hope these aren't actually topics in the main series, because it means that not only did people give money for something that won't help anything, but they gave their money to something that will be factually inaccurate.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Not what I saw in the Bastion demo. Didn't play beyond that (because clickclickclickclickclick doesn't appeal to me) but the intro segment alone went quite a bit into how the main character feels about/relates to people/things/events.

Because her point was that the character seemed to lack a personality. Having not playing Bastion, I can't speak to this, but "this character totally does something in the plot that is not what some other female characters do" is not an argument that the character has a personality.

Given that you have soley played the demo, please accept that the characterisation of Zia is adequate and that you really do find out more about her than you do the Kid. Sarkeesian is flat out wrong in that Zia is as in-depth as any of the other characters. I mean really you're arguing without any real knowledge of the game -.-

I'm not saying anything about Zia being a character or non-character, having not played the game. I'm saying that "but she double lampshade subverts damsel in distress" is not a good argument that she's an actual character, and neither is "but these other characters aren't fleshed-out either." If this guy wanted to make a good counter-argument, a better way for him to do it would be to actually talk about things she did in the game that give us information about her. It's not that a counter-argument to this can't be made, it's that this particular article does not offer us a relevant counter-argument.

 

[Frozen Donkey Wheel2]

This guy appears to be a fan of non sequitirs. "Yeah, this one character has high heels for no real reason... but she's a good character outside of that! That totally invalidates the impracticality of her outfit." Or "this one character in Bastion supposedly has no depth! But she double lampshade subverts the damsel in distress trope, and she doesn't wear a bikini!"

Uh, what? No. He explained why it's OK for the "Gravity Rush" character to wear high-high heels, thanks to the game's fiction. (Super powers and whatnot) And the fact that she just likes wearing high-heels. You know it's not sexist for a woman to dress sexily if she just likes to dress that way, right? Wouldn't it be MORE sexist if all female characters had to cover up to be considered legitimate?

She's not a real person. She's a character in a video game. She "chooses" to wear high heels into battle (and high heels work as combat gear in her universe) because the devs wanted their character to be wearing high heels and came up with an after-the-fact justification.

I'm not gonna get into a big argument about either of these games, as I haven't actually played either of them, I'm just going by what's in the article.

But about Gravity Rush: You're missing the point. If she's already a strong (as in well-written) character, then it doesn't matter what she's wearing. To be fair, I have no idea if the girl in Gravity Rush really IS a strong character, but the point is that a female character dressing sexily is not INHERENTLY sexist, as both you and this Sarkesian woman seem to believe.

 

[mronoc]

I'm absolutely in agreement in the case of Bastion. Even before she's named, she's not "the girl" she's "the singer." I haven't finished the game yet, but from what I've played so far (just got access to the stock pot), she's actually been given more of a backstory, and had more personality hinted at through narration than any of the other characters.

I kind of have to call BS on his arguments regarding Gravity Rush. I haven't played the game, so I can't say if I really think it's sexist or not, but in both arguments (magic forcefield and "she likes dressing up"), he's referring to fictional constructs as logical truths. Yeah, the character likes dressing up, but that's because some writer decided she should have that trait, and they use the forcefield device as means by justifying that aspect further. Again, I'm certainly not calling the game sexist, just that that's his response is flawed.

 

[Thoric485]

Yeah, I think it's safe to expect several dozen deconstructions like that after each of her videos, and a few really in-depth ones by fans she fazes.

All completely free of course.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Not what I saw in the Bastion demo. Didn't play beyond that (because clickclickclickclickclick doesn't appeal to me) but the intro segment alone went quite a bit into how the main character feels about/relates to people/things/events.

Because her point was that the character seemed to lack a personality. Having not playing Bastion, I can't speak to this, but "this character totally does something in the plot that is not what some other female characters do" is not an argument that the character has a personality.

Given that you have soley played the demo, please accept that the characterisation of Zia is adequate and that you really do find out more about her than you do the Kid. Sarkeesian is flat out wrong in that Zia is as in-depth as any of the other characters. I mean really you're arguing without any real knowledge of the game -.-

I'm not saying anything about Zia being a character or non-character, having not played the game. I'm saying that "but she double lampshade subverts damsel in distress" is not a good argument that she's an actual character, and neither is "but these other characters aren't fleshed-out either." If this guy wanted to make a good counter-argument, a better way for him to do it would be to actually talk about things she did in the game that give us information about her. It's not that a counter-argument to this can't be made, it's that this particular article does not offer us a relevant counter-argument.

But the fact is that Zia is one of the most fleshed out characters in the game. The Kid's character is basically "Determined Kid who's good with weapons, didn't have a good past". Ruck's character is basically "The Narrator, old man". Zia's actually one that shows the most independence in the game. When the Ura attack the Bastion, everyone thinks she got kidnapped because well she's a woman. But when you find her later in the game, it turns out she willfully walked away from the powerful men to actually see what the truth was about her race (the Ura). She's also shown to be extremely talented with her music, and she has the best song in the game in my opinion.

But really, the fact that she got basic bloody facts wrong makes her seem like she's just looking at female characters and filtering out anything that makes them a good character and just focusing on the common womanly parts. Also, Zia actually is never called "The Female", she's called "The Singer" before you find out her name. Like The Kid's just called The Kid, and Ruck before you get to know him is just called "The Old Man".

 

[Kahunaburger]

Yeah I agree, it's kind of more sexist to look at a female character that looks sexy, yet is amazingly developed and maybe even better than male characters in the game and write them off as sexist. Lara Croft is sexy, but she's also a badass who gets stuff done on her own. EVA from MGS3 was very sexy, yet it was her way of seducing Snake so she can get stuff done on her own. Yet I bet Anita Sarkeesian would say these two are sexist because they're sexy, which in my eyes is even more sexist. It's like saying "It's OK for a man to be sexy and a good character, but it's bad for a woman to be sexy and be a good character! Because that's sexist!"

The assumption here is that we're assessing characters as a whole, vs. how specific plot and characterization elements contribute to the larger picture of a character. For most characters, you've got a variety of elements, some of which are problematic and others which are not. We can talk about the problematic elements without pretending the non-problematic elements don't exist, and vice-versa.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Yeah I agree, it's kind of more sexist to look at a female character that looks sexy, yet is amazingly developed and maybe even better than male characters in the game and write them off as sexist. Lara Croft is sexy, but she's also a badass who gets stuff done on her own. EVA from MGS3 was very sexy, yet it was her way of seducing Snake so she can get stuff done on her own. Yet I bet Anita Sarkeesian would say these two are sexist because they're sexy, which in my eyes is even more sexist. It's like saying "It's OK for a man to be sexy and a good character, but it's bad for a woman to be sexy and be a good character! Because that's sexist!"

The assumption here is that we're assessing characters as a whole, vs. how specific plot and characterization elements contribute to the larger picture of a character. For most characters, you've got a variety of elements, some of which are problematic and others which are not. We can talk about the problematic elements without pretending the non-problematic elements don't exist, and vice-versa.

Yeah, that's all well and nice. But Anita Sarkeesian is just simply skimming over the games she chooses and cherry picking out anything that can be considered sexist. If you were to go by the way she's going by it you can say that Alyx Vance is sexist because she has to be rescued by Gordon Freeman a couple of times, and Chell from Portal is sexist because she's blindly following orders made by Aperture Science which was run by men! The fact that she got a really basic fact about Zia wrong (The fact that she's never called the female, before you know her names she's the singer) makes her look like some person who thinks they know what they're doing, but actually don't.

 

[Kahunaburger]

But the fact is that Zia is one of the most fleshed out characters in the game. The Kid's character is basically "Determined Kid who's good with weapons, didn't have a good past". Ruck's character is basically "The Narrator, old man". Zia's actually one that shows the most independence in the game. When the Ura attack the Bastion, everyone thinks she got kidnapped because well she's a woman. But when you find her later in the game, it turns out she willfully walked away from the powerful men to actually see what the truth was about her race (the Ura). She's also shown to be extremely talented with her music, and she has the best song in the game in my opinion.

Do any of these things illuminate aspects of her personality, or are they just plot events and/or things she does?

(But this is a side issue - the core question I was asking was not whether Zia was a good character or not, but whether this article made a good defense of her as a good character.)

But about Gravity Rush: You're missing the point. If she's already a strong (as in well-written) character, then it doesn't matter what she's wearing. To be fair, I have no idea if the girl in Gravity Rush really IS a strong character, but the point is that a female character dressing sexily is not INHERENTLY sexist, as both you and this Sarkesian woman seem to believe.

I dunno. Ghost in the Shell is one of the handful of anime shows I think are actually good, and I will be both the first to talk about how the Major is an excellent character and how her wearing what is basically a battle leotard (or, in the movie, thermoptic body paint) makes no sense. It's okay to look at a thing and say "this element is problematic, but this element is awesome."