A response to some arguments in anita sarkeesians interview.

[Kahunaburger]

There is a difference between the mechanical and the artistic. You can't just up and say "this character trait is bad!" without looking at the rest of the character. The character trait might be there on purpose, as part of a well rounded character, or could be that it's there for intentional subversive effect, maybe it's to look deeper into the issues surrounding the trait.

Yep. But the fact that it is possible that a visual design element is justified doesn't mean it is necessarily true that the visual design element is justified. Example: Major Kusanagi's thermoptic body paint (or whatever it is). No real reason for it, beyond an excuse to put tits on screen.

If you want to have a serious discussion about how women are portrayed and characterized in games, you best be prepared to talk about the whole character.

It depends. If by "talk about the whole character" you mean "treat writing like a scoreboard," of course not. If by "talk about the whole character" you mean "when analyzing a particular character element, discuss other relevant character elements," of course.

 

[RafaelNegrus]

To me, sexism is like racism, it goes away if you stop talking about it. Some people just try way too hard to skew things to match their particular lense. I don't actually believe there's such a thing as a modern feminist because the issues they fought for are all in the past.

Sorry that is just drivel.
Sexism doesn't magically go away if you ignore it. It persists if you ignore it because you don't challege. We didn't `ignore` racism away, so I'm not sure why you felt the need to put that there.
People count on saying `oh just ignore it!` so that they can keep getting away it. I've never `fed the trolls` on Xbox live, and thats pretty darn sexist.

Also, there are some countries where women can't drive legally. Issues in the past?

The thing is that American feminists aren't too concerned about other countries. Which is fine, take care of your own back yard, but they deal with mostly American issues.

Also on the point of sexism in other cultures, is it sexist if its not considered sexist? I don't actually know the answer to that question, but it just came to mind.

And I know Nimzabaat didn't talk about this, but I do think that issues like this become rather entrenched after a large amount of discussion. I think that will be the lasting legacy of the feminist movement, is that things will be thought of in terms of men vs. women much more. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but I think that's how it is.

 

[Darkmantle]

There is a difference between the mechanical and the artistic. You can't just up and say "this character trait is bad!" without looking at the rest of the character. The character trait might be there on purpose, as part of a well rounded character, or could be that it's there for intentional subversive effect, maybe it's to look deeper into the issues surrounding the trait.

Yep. But the fact that it is possible that a visual design element is justified doesn't mean it is necessarily true that the visual design element is justified. Example: Major Kusanagi's thermoptic body paint (or whatever it is). No real reason for it, beyond an excuse to put tits on screen.

If you want to have a serious discussion about how women are portrayed and characterized in games, you best be prepared to talk about the whole character.

It depends. If by "talk about the whole character" you mean "treat writing like a scoreboard," of course not. If by "talk about the whole character" you mean "when analyzing a particular character element, discuss other relevant character elements," of course.

And even your own example only makes sense with the character in context. We know that the character (presumably) wouldn't be inclined to wear such a thing, but she does anyway, that is a visual design and character disconnect, and a real issue.

But Zia? and Assassin's creed games? She has take those characters totally out of context for their style and setting respectively, and it completely weakens, if not outright nullifies, her argument. If you are going to say that high heels makes this character misogynist, you have to say WHY in context. just pointing at them is meaningless.

 

[Vrex360]

snippy

mind pointing to me towards some of the videos you think are well done? The ones I've seen so far were rubbish. Since you feel she's hit and miss I might have just seen the misses.

Well, it was all just her personal opinion but both of her videos on the Hunger games I found to be very insightful(they convinced me to actually read the book for one thing). I also really liked her more recent video on the Bechdel Test, the one about True Grit and Mattie Ross was quite good and as I've said before I really liked the whole 'tropes versus women' series. She also did a very good video on unpleasant stereotypes against men in alchohol advertisments and I liked her arguments about 'uber Ironic sexism'. Finally quite liked, for the most part anyway, her Lego advertisements.

Like I said it's a hit and miss for me, her earlier ones were kind of sensationalist possibly because they were so short so she had to hammer in a point really fast, later on she could put more detail into them and comes across as a lot calmer. Low points for me are the ones about Iphone games (one comment goes too far and of course it's a little off topic) and the one about Christmas songs I thought was reaching a bit (though Baby it's cold outside is still just kinda fucked up if you ask me). I also think she could have talked a bit more about Suckerpunch, I agree that the movie is kind of dripping in sexism but I felt it needed more elaboration.

But hey, to each their own. I've been an avid follower for a while and while it is true I don't always agree with Sarkeesian I'm also always eager to listen to what she has to say. I wonder if she'll make a rebuttal to this. Probably not but all the same I stand by my original point, attaching 'free will' to a character that can't have free will is silly.

P.S going to bed now and I'm on holiday so is it okay if any more conversation gets put away for a while?

 

[Nimzabaat]

To me, sexism is like racism, it goes away if you stop talking about it. Some people just try way too hard to skew things to match their particular lense. I don't actually believe there's such a thing as a modern feminist because the issues they fought for are all in the past.

Sorry that is just drivel.
Sexism doesn't magically go away if you ignore it. It persists if you ignore it because you don't challege. We didn't `ignore` racism away, so I'm not sure why you felt the need to put that there.
People count on saying `oh just ignore it!` so that they can keep getting away it. I've never `fed the trolls` on Xbox live, and thats pretty darn sexist.

Also, there are some countries where women can't drive legally. Issues in the past?

It is true that some countries are behind. It's also very true that that is none of our concern. At my workplace we have people. We don't have men and women until someone goes to the bathroom. It's not an issue. Why? Because I don't have to point out to other people that my boss is a woman who is respected in her field across North America. Well I have to point it our here, because some people want to keep sexism current, instead of a historical fact where it belongs.

It's not "ignoring something away". It's ignoring the difference between individuals, be it race, sex, disability, or ability. Once people get it through their heads that we're all human, humanity wins.

EDIT: So when Morgan Freeman says it, it's the wisest most intelligent thing ever. When I say it... drivel? Okifine.

 

[Phasmal]

The thing is that American feminists aren't too concerned about other countries. Which is fine, take care of your own back yard, but they deal with mostly American issues.

Are you saying America doesn't have problems with sexism?
I certainly wouldn't wanna be an American woman, not with all the dudes so obsessed with their uteruses (uteri? whatever).

The game culture has a massive problem with sexism, to the point I honestly can't tell what's supposed to be satire any more because there are so many dudes broadcast this crap all over the place.
I'd love to ignore the whole thing, I didn't sign up for this shit. But sadly when you're a ladygamer it comes with the package, you can't escape it (except for ragequitting the whole damn thing).

It's not "ignoring something away". It's ignoring the difference between individuals, be it race, sex, disability, or ability. Once people get it through their heads that we're all human, humanity wins.

It's the shit-talking dudes in our community you need to be telling this to. I'm certainly not going around saying I'm special, but it's got to the point that mentioning my gender in a game (indirectly) is a freaking terrible move. Things were better when I was pretending to be a dude.

 

[RafaelNegrus]

There is a difference between the mechanical and the artistic. You can't just up and say "this character trait is bad!" without looking at the rest of the character. The character trait might be there on purpose, as part of a well rounded character, or could be that it's there for intentional subversive effect, maybe it's to look deeper into the issues surrounding the trait.

Yep. But the fact that it is possible that a visual design element is justified doesn't mean it is necessarily true that the visual design element is justified. Example: Major Kusanagi's thermoptic body paint (or whatever it is). No real reason for it, beyond an excuse to put tits on screen.

If you want to have a serious discussion about how women are portrayed and characterized in games, you best be prepared to talk about the whole character.

It depends. If by "talk about the whole character" you mean "treat writing like a scoreboard," of course not. If by "talk about the whole character" you mean "when analyzing a particular character element, discuss other relevant character elements," of course.

I'm not sure what you mean by "relevant character elements." For example, for the Galaxy Rush girl, what is relevant character traits to her high heels?

I think a holistic look is necessary, and that there is an issue with too many vapid, flat, stereotypical, forgettable characters. But I think at the same time we're going to have difficulty discussing those, because we've already forgotten them.

 

[Evilpigeon]

snip

Thanks, I guess I'll give some of the others a look, my big problem with what I saw was that she didn't bother to justify her assertions in the slightest, let alone think about counterpoints.

 

[Kahunaburger]

There is a difference between the mechanical and the artistic. You can't just up and say "this character trait is bad!" without looking at the rest of the character. The character trait might be there on purpose, as part of a well rounded character, or could be that it's there for intentional subversive effect, maybe it's to look deeper into the issues surrounding the trait.

Yep. But the fact that it is possible that a visual design element is justified doesn't mean it is necessarily true that the visual design element is justified. Example: Major Kusanagi's thermoptic body paint (or whatever it is). No real reason for it, beyond an excuse to put tits on screen.

If you want to have a serious discussion about how women are portrayed and characterized in games, you best be prepared to talk about the whole character.

It depends. If by "talk about the whole character" you mean "treat writing like a scoreboard," of course not. If by "talk about the whole character" you mean "when analyzing a particular character element, discuss other relevant character elements," of course.

And even your own example only makes sense with the character in context. We know that the character (presumably) wouldn't be inclined to wear such a thing, but she does anyway, that is a visual design and character disconnect, and a real issue.

But Zia? and Assassin's creed games? She has take those characters totally out of context for their style and setting respectively, and it completely weakens, if not outright nullifies, her argument. If you are going to say that high heels makes this character misogynist, you have to say WHY in context. just pointing at them is meaningless.

I'm not sure you're responding to what she's actually saying. "This element of this character is inherently problematic," "this element of this character is problematic in the context of the work in which it appears," and "this character is problematic because of one or more problematic elements" are three completely different things.

 

[RafaelNegrus]

The thing is that American feminists aren't too concerned about other countries. Which is fine, take care of your own back yard, but they deal with mostly American issues.

Are you saying America doesn't have problems with sexism?
I certainly wouldn't wanna be an American woman, not with all the dudes so obsessed with their uteruses (uteri? whatever).

The game culture has a massive problem with sexism, to the point I honestly can't tell what's supposed to be satire any more because there are so many dudes broadcast this crap all over the place.
I'd love to ignore the whole thing, I didn't sign up for this shit. But sadly when you're a ladygamer it comes with the package, you can't escape it (except for ragequitting the whole damn thing).

No, but to cite issues dealing with feminism in other countries is a little disingenuous when almost none of the people in the American feminist movement seem to be overly concerned. Yes, there are American issues. But I think you should use those as your first examples, not Middle Eastern ones.

Also, I move for them to be called uteri.

 

[Phasmal]

No, but to cite issues dealing with feminism in other countries is a little disingenuous when almost none of the people in the American feminist movement seem to be overly concerned. Yes, there are American issues. But I think you should use those as your first examples, not Middle Eastern ones.

Also, I move for them to be called uteri.

I'm not American, so I wouldn't automatically use American examples.
But the reason I said that in the first place is because they said`modern feminism`, not `modern american-based feminism` had accomplished what it meant to. Which is silly. And not true.

 

[Blade_125]

This was a good article, but it is too specific. It looks at a couple video games only. I don't think these were good games for Anita to focus on as the defenses made are good ones, but I could pick many, many more that there are no defense to. When arguing along these lines it is easy to make the statement that she is wrong because the issues she has with these 4 examples are overblown, yet when you looks at gaming as a whole, or even better media as a whole, the issue is much more visible.

So while the author of that article can argue on these 4 games and offer valid points I didn't see anything to address the greater issue.

Lets not miss the forest while looking at the trees.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Snip

So because of the dicks on Xbox Live you're saying there's a problem with sexism in America? Xbox Live is the scum of the online gaming world, if you were to go on say Starcraft 2 or Tribes: Ascend and say you were a girl nobody would care or they would see it as a good thing. Also, when you show me examples of something bad happening to an American woman just because they're a woman that isn't a petty crime then you have a point. But the thing is, women in America have got it pretty damn good. You can get any job you want, there aren't any laws prohibiting you from doing anything just because you're a woman and such. Yet you live in a country where a man gets 2 years in prison because he was accused of false rape by his girlfriend, and nobody questioned her because she was a woman. That's sexist to BOTH genders, yet people ignore it to focus on shit like Videogames which won't matter in the long run. Also, from what I've seen gays in America are having a worse time than woman by far, they can't bloody marry in most states for gods sake!

 

[RafaelNegrus]

No, but to cite issues dealing with feminism in other countries is a little disingenuous when almost none of the people in the American feminist movement seem to be overly concerned. Yes, there are American issues. But I think you should use those as your first examples, not Middle Eastern ones.

Also, I move for them to be called uteri.

I'm not American, so I wouldn't automatically use American examples.
But the reason I said that in the first place is because they said`modern feminism`, not `modern american-based feminism` had accomplished what it meant to. Which is silly. And not true.

And to be honest, I don't know much about European (or Australian or wherever else outside of America and the Middle East) feminism, but I do know that they are very different things across cultures, nearly so much so that they're hard to compare.

 

[Phasmal]

Snip

So because of the dicks on Xbox Live you're saying there's a problem with sexism in America? Xbox Live is the scum of the online gaming world, if you were to go on say Starcraft 2 or Tribes: Ascend and say you were a girl nobody would care or they would see it as a good thing. Also, when you show me examples of something bad happening to an American woman just because they're a woman that isn't a petty crime then you have a point. But the thing is, women in America have got it pretty damn good. You can get any job you want, there aren't any laws prohibiting you from doing anything just because you're a woman and such. Yet you live in a country where a man gets 2 years in prison because he was accused of false rape by his girlfriend, and nobody questioned her because she was a woman. That's sexist to BOTH genders, yet people ignore it to focus on shit like Videogames which won't matter in the long run. Also, from what I've seen gays in America are having a worse time than woman by far, they can't bloody marry in most states for gods sake!

I think you're mistaking what I said about America with what I said about Xboxes. The two were not connected. I asked if the person I was quoting thought there were no issues of sexism in America, they responded that there were not saying that.
Being for womens rights does not mean I'm not for any other groups rights so thats just silly.
Also please break up your posts.

I use `Xbox live` as a generalisation. The gaming community in general, in games and on forums, is pretty damn sexist. I've been around, it's pretty much the same wherever you go. There are places that are better and worse than others, but the attitude is there a lot.

 

[blackdwarf]

i'm really enjoying this event (not the hate against her, mind you). the arguments on both sides and the related stuff. form the stuff i have seen from her, i don't believe she has really a idea what she is talking about. this article shows that she takes it way to seriously and looks way too much in stuff. like she is negative for the sake of being negative. i still find it perplexing that she dared to ask for 6000 dollars for 5 videos some make for free or for a living after making a name for themselves. now she gets 160,000 dollars and what does she do? she will make 7 more videos! that is maybe 140% more work. sure, i'm someone who also comments on stuff like these, but i know when i have to accepts it is part of the art style or something else.

 

[ProtoChimp]

snippy

mind pointing to me towards some of the videos you think are well done? The ones I've seen so far were rubbish. Since you feel she's hit and miss I might have just seen the misses.

Well, it was all just her personal opinion but both of her videos on the Hunger games I found to be very insightful(they convinced me to actually read the book for one thing). I also really liked her more recent video on the Bechdel Test, the one about True Grit and Mattie Ross was quite good and as I've said before I really liked the whole 'tropes versus women' series. She also did a very good video on unpleasant stereotypes against men in alchohol advertisments and I liked her arguments about 'uber Ironic sexism'. Finally quite liked, for the most part anyway, her Lego advertisements.

Like I said it's a hit and miss for me, her earlier ones were kind of sensationalist possibly because they were so short so she had to hammer in a point really fast, later on she could put more detail into them and comes across as a lot calmer. Low points for me are the ones about Iphone games (one comment goes too far and of course it's a little off topic) and the one about Christmas songs I thought was reaching a bit (though Baby it's cold outside is still just kinda fucked up if you ask me). I also think she could have talked a bit more about Suckerpunch, I agree that the movie is kind of dripping in sexism but I felt it needed more elaboration.

But hey, to each their own. I've been an avid follower for a while and while it is true I don't always agree with Sarkeesian I'm also always eager to listen to what she has to say. I wonder if she'll make a rebuttal to this. Probably not but all the same I stand by my original point, attaching 'free will' to a character that can't have free will is silly.

P.S going to bed now and I'm on holiday so is it okay if any more conversation gets put away for a while?

Sorry whats fucked up about "baby its cold outside?"

Capcha: get over it... um... er.... I... dont... know how to react...

 

[rbstewart7263]

Saying the gravity rush girl should not wear what she does because of a hair splitting realism based(if this were real) arguement is weak. I may as well argue that Ronald McDonald's dress is impractical within the confines of working in fast food. He'd get hot with those clothes! The clown makeup would wear off! How wrong! The argument holds no water with a game like that. Show me a girl wearing high heels in call of duty in a fire fight an ill give your arguement its due.

 

[wintercoat]

snippy

mind pointing to me towards some of the videos you think are well done? The ones I've seen so far were rubbish. Since you feel she's hit and miss I might have just seen the misses.

Well, it was all just her personal opinion but both of her videos on the Hunger games I found to be very insightful(they convinced me to actually read the book for one thing). I also really liked her more recent video on the Bechdel Test, the one about True Grit and Mattie Ross was quite good and as I've said before I really liked the whole 'tropes versus women' series. She also did a very good video on unpleasant stereotypes against men in alchohol advertisments and I liked her arguments about 'uber Ironic sexism'. Finally quite liked, for the most part anyway, her Lego advertisements.

Like I said it's a hit and miss for me, her earlier ones were kind of sensationalist possibly because they were so short so she had to hammer in a point really fast, later on she could put more detail into them and comes across as a lot calmer. Low points for me are the ones about Iphone games (one comment goes too far and of course it's a little off topic) and the one about Christmas songs I thought was reaching a bit (though Baby it's cold outside is still just kinda fucked up if you ask me). I also think she could have talked a bit more about Suckerpunch, I agree that the movie is kind of dripping in sexism but I felt it needed more elaboration.

But hey, to each their own. I've been an avid follower for a while and while it is true I don't always agree with Sarkeesian I'm also always eager to listen to what she has to say. I wonder if she'll make a rebuttal to this. Probably not but all the same I stand by my original point, attaching 'free will' to a character that can't have free will is silly.

P.S going to bed now and I'm on holiday so is it okay if any more conversation gets put away for a while?

Sorry whats fucked up about "baby its cold outside?"

Capcha: get over it... um... er.... I... dont... know how to react...

Well, the song was written as a 'wolf' attempting to entice a 'mouse' into his den, for what reasons can only be guessed at.

There's also the line "Say, what's in this drink?" that the 'mouse' says, that some people attempt to prop up as a sign that it's about date-rape, though considering the time period the song was originally written in, the probability of that is rather low. The 'mouse' is most likely hinting at being given an alcoholic drink when previously the mouse was drinking non-alcoholic beverages.

Then there's the 'wolf' shooting down the 'mouse's' constant declarations to the effect of 'no', attempting to coerce the mouse into staying. Some people view it as the mouse only putting up a token resistance, while actually wanting to stay, while others view it as the mouse earnestly wanting to leave, but being stopped by the wolf.