A response to some arguments in anita sarkeesians interview.

[rbstewart7263]

My response to kahuna burger.

How does Freemans statement pertain? Fair question but I think you already know the answer. You stated that ignoring a perceived difference of power within the confines of discrimination was cowardly, I gave you an example of some who would see it differently including freeman who grew up in my home state of mississippi.

Ive had plenty of black friends(before someone calls me barbaric thats what everyone black or white prefers here they do not go crying "bla...black man...") here and there opinions on the matter differed depending on what they were taught. Ive had some friends so open minded and undeterred by societies sensitivities that we could spout racist jokes at each other and this happened on multiple occasions with four of my black friends.

It is often said that friends insult each other without actually meaning it and I agree I often felt the ability to do so buried that hatchet and made us both friends instead of " Hes my white friend, Hes my black friend" which is what I had always wanted something honest and unafraid.


This is not for everyone I dont expect this kind of mind set from everyone especially older black people.




Ive also had the opposite side of that coin. A guy I worked with and became friends with was VERY sensitive and also a bit paranoid at times to the point where even something minor as a mere scheduling change was racism and he would say ill things about our boss. Our boss died and he would come to find out that our boss spoke well of my friend, that he was a good and reliable man at covering night shift and he felt guilty that he had made such a base assumption. A good guy all told ive had many an intelligent debate with him.

My response to Liquid Grape.

Not to mention how Morgan Freeman is virtually oozing privilege anyway, being a wealthy and relatively light-skinned man of colour who works within the comfort zone of a predominantly white social sphere.

Ask a middle-to-lower class person of colour whether they think Freeman's delusional assessment is correct, and I can guarantee you'll hear a very different account of the problem.

Freeman is no authority on racism. Ignoring the problem does not make it go away.
And like racism, sexism will persist for as long as people insist on being dismissive of the endemic issues which perpetuate it.

Like I stated earlier Freeman lived in mississippi growing up around the late 50s early 60s. A violent racist as hell time for my state and Im not afraid to call mississippi out on that.

So the idea that Freeman is privileged then or now is frankly absurd what he got was through his own efforts and skills.

And If I did ask a "Person of colour"(such a distant way to put it) Well it would differ from one to the next the idea that america as a society is oozing with people sitting at corporate headquarters asking each other "So how can we keep the black man down" Is actually more prevalent in privileged white quarters than with black people in general.

No most black people see it as a gap of rich and poor all around you only need to see a trailer park once to see that those old lines; Those old battles do not pertain anymore. Here where I live we have alot of furniture factories and when you go in there there are black white and brown all around and not a one looks a bit privileged. We all looked like shit quite frankly.

Sidenote:
Im proud of this fact when I worked picking sweet potato's in Verona I was the only white guy there!lmao The farmer told we had a job for three months but it was only for three days; enough time for him to get more people from mexico here to work cheap.

 

[rbstewart7263]

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Snip

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Now heres someone I like ok.

Fair enough Ill argue indeed that we do need to keep talking about in general the issues we have with our games So that when a game doesnt sell people out there know theres a market to fill.

In the case of women in games theres a huge market to fill. But if we are too on the case of developers where gonna stifle there development. I say let Ea make sexist bingo 9 or whatever but also let them make beyond good and evil 2(On a side note fuck them for what there doing with that franchise dangling it over the fans heads like slop over hungry pigs) I feel we need both.

Ive heard arguements against even such games as legend of zelda. that it and those who play it promote sexist norms(man saves female). This is not simply not true instead of the argument to rid ourselves of such things(I know it wont happen but for posterity's sake) We cater to both. I know of plenty of women who share the same white knight complex and hero mindset that I do. Id argue that catering to both is positive while the extreme "take this away we want something else" mentality is negative.

So killing link bad.

His female counterpart(who should look like lindsey stirling and play violin..look it up) Totally awesome.

As to the fact of big issues done small issues next. That I will finish when I get back home but for the record trilligan its been fun your one of the better debaters ive found on the escapist.

 

[rbstewart7263]

More time now.

Yes but small issues should be treated as such. Making mountains out of molehills silences your own opinion. The ole boy who cried wolf becomes the girl who cried sexist. If her examples are not correct and concise the game industry will close there ears and nothing will get done. her brand of feminism is a tad extreme. Ive watched her videos shel even go after kill bill???


So Yeah it would seem we are disagreeing to agree? I think we should talk about it but I feel we need someone better on her side of the argument. If the game industry frankly gets tired of those who cant be pleased than those who can; those who have real and not imagined problems with the lack of variety wont be heard and I personally have a stake in this.

To elaborate when you become a representative of a cause like sarkeesian its not enough to critique media. Shes really good at telling the industry what it does wrong. Ive yet to hear her advice on what we can do right.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Ive had plenty of black friends

Welp, I think that shuts down the discussion. The fact that you know people of other races [small](and apparently think that's unusual enough to warrant a comment)[/small] makes you both qualified to speak to whether people still experience racism and to which millionaire you have determined has the right to speak for the entire black community (as if there's anyone who can do that.)

 

[rbstewart7263]

lmao kahuna your assuming now thats not at all what I meant by that! lmao

I cannot speak for everyone just the people I know who have a variety of opinons. the consensus of one person on here was that people of colour as they put it would not dare think in such a way.

I gave examples of not only thinking "that way" and examples of other ways of thinking.

 

[rbstewart7263]

At Tenmar:

They do which is why im so passionate about this I want more variety in videogames. I see her position and opinion.highly lauded as it is; stifling to variety and creativity both for male and female representation.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

My biggest reservation about these videos is that I am not sure that she fully grasps video games as a media and is therefore likely to miss the important elements of female portrayal in them by looking at them only through a feminist lens. The article the OP posted has some good examples of what I am worried about in pointing out that supporting female characters (like Sforza, like Lucy, etc.) aren't being fully understood in their context as supporting characters before being examined as female characters. The supporting characters - male or female - are generally never given as much attention as the protagonist group or the player-character. That is something that must be accounted for before discussing how they are being portrayed in a gender specific way. This comes up in the Bastion example - he's right saying the game is minimalist and therefore it is not even-handed to point out that Zia isn't given a fully fleshed description and position in the game and say that is because she is female - it's because she isn't the player-character first and foremost.

There is a fruitful discussion to be had about why there aren't as many female (and I mean female-only choice, not dual choice gender like Shepard or Hawke or the Warden or the Fallout protagonists) player-characters as male player-characters. There is a discussion to be had about the consistency with which female support characters assume roles of healers, tactical support, or other semi-passive forms of assistance to the protagonist at greater frequency than male support characters who tend to play more aggressive and active support roles. There are plenty of things that can be discussed about gender in video games that would be fruitful for the industry as well as the community to examine, understand, and possibly grow from.

What I have seen so far though has been somewhat indicating that those are not going to be the major centers of discussion for her videos and that instead there is going to be a tally of what female characters are doing in comparison to male characters without accounting for the hierarchy of characters in general in games and without considering how the narratives of different types of games unfolds. RPGs treat characters very differently than an RTS game or a plat former does - is this going to be accounted for? I am not seeing that as yet, and that is disappointing.

What it comes down to for me is that - if someone doesn't take the whole picture into account and doesn't take the time to understand the dynamic of the media and how it functions into account, then they can't assess and accurate picture of what the inadequacies of the assignment of genders to roles within that system is - and what will result is something that won't have much value to the community or the industry, but will instead merely stir up confusion and controversy in an unproductive way.

 

[Loonyyy]

Apart from a few salient points on Bastion and Assassin's Creed, the article seems to rely pretty heavily on ad-hoc reasoning and special pleading.

What both said about Gravity Rush is entirely silly-Sarkeesian's wrong because the armour comment is unfounded, but Carter tries to make an argument about dressing up which is entirely moronic. If I, as a straight male, who, like many of us, finds lesbians attractive, write a story about two lesbians, who happen to be incredibly hot, and incredibly promiscuous and explicit, I can't justify it as the character's decisions: They're fiction, I'm responsible for how I wrote them. And I wrote them as exploitative fantasy material. It's fine for this to exist, but surely there's a point where we acknowledge that the majority of characters can't be this.

On the subject of Rayman, arguing that the Nymphs created Rayman doesn't give them any character, or anything to do with agency or having a role. Especially when after they're typically rescued. It's an odd choice to use for criticism, to be sure, but nothing that Carter said addresses the point: The all-female, supposedly powerful Nymphs are simply there to be rescued, by and large, by Rayman. Arguing that they've got a backstory is unrelated to both the core gameplay and the claim at hand, and Carter goes on with more ad-hoc nonsense trying to justify their appearance. "I also feel like the Nymphs are very comfortable with the way they look,"
They're fictional, dumbass. It's not as negative as them being forced into a role and that exploitation being played for the gamers enjoyment (Like say, the rape part of DNF), but again, if I write a character, I'm responsible for the portrayl, and arguing for a fictional characters motive in it's portrayl is retarded.

So I guess he manages a 2/4? He points out the obvious about Assassins Creed, and also makes a fair point about Bastion (Yes, the Kid is the character we explore the thoughts of, and the greatest detail of the history. That makes all of the other characters lesser, not simply Zia. To claim otherwise would be to ignore the game for the point that Sarkeesian wants to make, as opposed to the representation. On the other hand, the Kid is male, in a male dominated protagonist world[Which is a criticism of the game industry in general, which can then be levelled at Bastion, rather than the other way round, which is what Sarkessian seems to be doing]. That's really the only way to come at that in my view).

He's a psuedo-intellectual, making equally shaky claims. Neither of these people really should be taken seriously. They both fail at their research extensively, and generally at justifying or defining their positions.

Of course, rational people probably realised that after he started taking concerns about the amount of money seriously.

 

[Loonyyy]

To me, sexism is like racism, it goes away if you stop talking about it.

And I'm sure ostriches everywhere agree with you that this is a good response to every problem.

Except Ostriches don't bury their heads like that as a defense mechanism. That would be retarded.

But apparently people on the internet do. Go figure.

I guess we don't have any real predators, so we have time for this shit.

That's a good way to put it. The folks who say stuff like "racism is a solved problem" and "can we stop talking about sexism?" tend to be pretty privileged, after all.

I challenge your arguement with a statement from morgan freeman.

Comments on race

Freeman has publicly criticized the celebration of Black History Month and does not participate in any related events, saying, "I don't want a black history month. Black history is American history."[40] He says the only way to end racism is to stop talking about it, and he notes that there is no "white history month."[41] Freeman once said on an interview with 60 Minutes' Mike Wallace, "I am going to stop calling you a white man and I'm going to ask you to stop calling me a black man."[40] Freeman supported the defeated proposal to change the Mississippi state flag, which contains the Confederate battle flag.[42][43

Perhaps youd like to eat your own words??

As has been pointed out, Freeman's view doesn't change anything. It's fallacious logic on every level.

More to the point: As I see it he's not saying racism is dead, or that we can be racist, or that we must ignore it. He's saying that making the demarcation between black and white in itself isn't helpful: "Black History Month" is in fact American History. White Americans and Black Americans share this history. It's not seperated, it's intertwined, and it's all important. To attempt to justify the idea of "Black History Month" just creates claims of racism from white people, and makes the problem out to be a "black" problem, rather than a human one.

Which is entirely a fair point: It's not the end of discussion, or argument, and it can't be used as such. As far as I understand his point, I agree with him. I don't see where he's saying we should ignore racism to make it go away, or how that would justify ignoring sexism to make it go away. He's arguing a specific point on a specific issue.

To be crass, I'd refer to 2 South Park episodes; "Chef Goes Nanners" and "With Apologies to Jesse Jackson" which illustrate the point better than I can (I'm not claiming they're evidence, or prove a point). We don't need to acknowledge the demarcation between races, or genders, but we do need to respect them, and part of that respect is acknowledging that deciding that a demarcation between them is justification for discrimination is not respectful.

EDIT: And I must say, not only are you not a particularly good debater, or judge of the material you've presented (Chris manages a barely 2/4 success in deconstructing Anita's claims, and her claims aren't exactly brilliant to begin with). To judge others who agree with you as good simply for the purpose of some congratulationary promotion of your own ideas is just asinine. Especially with your post count. (Hint: Deliberately complimenting an exclusive segment of the replies, and ignoring the others implies an judgement. It hardly seems you're in position to level it.)

 

[rbstewart7263]

My response to looney

Lmao me an the person I complimented are to a degree are differing in terms of our degree to which we feel regarding the handling of such delicate issues. I was complimenting someone disagreeing with me. We disagree to agree in that we both want positive change we disagree on how best to go about it so no I was complimenting my rival in the discussion in all good nature.

My skills as a debater are poor indeed ill agree with you on that though. People take criticism better when its constructive so if you have any advice I may be inclined to accept it.

He disagrees w me but he's the best at expressing his disagreement to put it simply.

 

[Jdb]

"Video games reinforce sexist and misogynist behavior" is the new "video games reinforce violent behavior." The sooner people realize this, the better.

However, I do want to see if 160 thousand dollars will improve her first train wreck of a video about video games.


Overall, the situation is so out of hand, it makes me wish people didn't shoot down that Kickstarter game about multiracial transgender goddesses fighting evil straight white men. At least I could laugh with the absurdity of that. But this is just embarrassing.

 

[Kahunaburger]

That's an... interesting... youtube video. It seems to mostly consist of a standard feminist frequency video with T.T annotations. This is supposed to sway us over to FF detractors?

 

[Jdb]

Nope. Just the upcoming Tropes vs. Women in Video Games. If this video is an indication of the future, then Tropes vs. Women in Video Games will be just as poorly researched and informed, with holes that are easily seen by people who've actually played the game.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Nope. Just the upcoming Tropes vs. Women in Video Games. If this video is an indication of the future, then Tropes vs. Women in Video Games will be just as poorly researched and informed, with holes that are easily seen by people who've actually played the game.

Well, if that's what the annotations are meant to do, they're not doing a very good job at it. All I gathered from the video was:

A) Bayonetta is sexist.

A.1) Bayonetta's advertising was sexist & creepy in context.
B) Some ppl apparently play Bayonetta for the lore, which is hilarious.
C) This guy doesn't actually have anything substantive to say. The video's about visuals and marketing, the annotations are about lore nitpicks.

 

[Jdb]

Clear contradictions aren't substantive? Ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha. We're done here.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Clear contradictions aren't substantive? Ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha. We're done here.

None of the annotations I saw constituted a substantive response. It was basically all lore QQing. If there's one that actually substantively addresses sexism in Bayonetta in a way that would not cause an average viewer to go "ahaha no," please feel free to present it.

 

[targren]

Clear contradictions aren't substantive? Ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha. We're done here.

None of the annotations I saw constituted a substantive response. It was basically all lore QQing. If there's one that actually substantively addresses sexism in Bayonetta in a way that would not cause an average viewer to go "ahaha no," please feel free to present it.

There's a difference between "Lore QQing" and complaining that "Return of the Jedi sucks because the Daleks swooped in at the end and wiped out the rebellion."