a social experiment on racism

[iseko]

True. But that goes both ways. Black people can be racist to white people because they were treated poorly by another white person before. Which is where the circle of hate comes from. I'm not above racist thoughts. I wasn't always like this but I have had... unfortunate run ins with foreigners before. Noone is 100% without racist thought. Not white/black/chinese/indian/whatever. But you have to able to rise above it. Which is hard but in the end the prejudice can completely dissapear (for an individual person). Then again: I'm prejudiced against certain types of white people. If I see a 20 year old in sweat pants and a basebal cap... yea...

I disagree that prejudice can be made to totally disappear, but it can (with work) be minimised.

Also, I believe (not sure though), that in your scenario above, the black person won't simply respond with racism against the white person, they'll persecute some other vulnerable group. For example, with homophobia or sexism. This might be a white person, of course, but it won't tend to be simply racism.

Though, I can't say for sure.

You can't lose your prejudice for a race (not 100%). You can become friends with someone (very good friends/best friends) towards you previously were prejudiced (e.g. black). This I know from experience and it is what I meant. For the scenario. Dunno, could go in all directions. I'm not a psychologist.

 

[V4Viewtiful]

No, racism does exist. As you said, it is a special point under discrimination. It just isn't about actual biological races, as those don't exist. Just like feminism isn't about female domination, yet isn't called "equalinism" (thanks, spell check for telling me that is wrong), the simple, 6-letter word "racism" is a product of a time when people thought "races" were an actual thing but today we know that racism is about so much more than that. That word has evolved, the meaning has evolved and today just saying "it means hating other races" doesn't do the word and the ideology behind it any justice anymore.

My point is for people to stop clinging to "races" when defining racism, to stop perpetuating the myth that there is such a thing. Today's actual racism goes far beyond that, is far from being so simple. As other posters have already said it's also about power structures, majorities and minorities, privileges, history, culture, ethnicity, ideologies etc. Dictionaries tend to just ignore that for brevity but there is a reason why the Wikipedia article on "Racism" is huuuge with a ton of citations instead of just saying "hating somebody else's race".

I'm having a hard time with this. So black people can't be racist because they have no power in western society? Well, then I can't be racist either because I have zero power over anyone. Not particularly rich (not poor either). I don't have people working under me. Yeuy for me!

I know that is a ludicrous example. But if a black person walks by me and calls me a dirty cracker, that is not racism? That is just... stupid. This entire discussion is the problem with the modern world in my eyes. Racism is simple: you hate a person from another race (races as defined by human society) because he is from that race? You're a racist. There are no special rules on how to be racist. You don't get a free pass on hating other people in my eyes.

The comment they're making is racist in two ways.

1. Assuming that black people don't/can't hold power (I can think of at least one obvious example but thousands of effective examples where this is false. Millions that I likely don't know of).
2. Assuming that a white person has control over the situation because of the color of their skin.

I'm sorry, but the comment is bigoted regardless of the intention of the poster. You should not only be having a difficult time accepting that statement but should be actively offended by it. In fact, black people should be offended by this claim that they can't have power either. As less than 15% of the US population, there is remarkably high representation of African Americans in society from the position of the president to all areas of government in any branch to manager positions all across the country. The system has encouraged this and white people have championed the cause of equality right along side black people. With such a huge disparity in numbers you cannot gain equality without the majority on your side, which happened and continues to happen to the point where any known instance of overt racism will blacklist the person in today's society.

don't confuse the issue, I didn't say we don't have power Marcus Garvey, MLK and Malcolm X prove we do, I'm saying the western world we live in is catered to whites regards if the common white dude benefits, I'm pointing out that the way we live is flawed and by our own ignorance or not doing enough we allow it to work. In many cases it's our own fault in others it's higher ups intentionally stifling progress.

 

[RoonMian]

Nonononono, you're confusing me. I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt that this was not an intentional strawman but just happened because you were holding two discussions at once

I never said blacks couldn't be racist or only whites could be. Quite the contrary. For example what happened in Ruanda and Burundi in the 90s was very much racism. It was about power struggles, minorities and majorities but all involved were black and it the end there were 1.000.000 people dead.

What I am saying is that either you lose the word "race" when defining racism or if you are hell bent on clinging to it use the qualifier "as defined by human society" though I still find it silly to jump through that hoop if the actual meaning of the actual biological expression "race" is 100% not applicable to human beings.

But for your example: While I would never say that the black person using a racist slur against wasn't acting racist the problem here and why other people see racism differently than you is that this kind of racism, white guy hearing a mean word on the street, is nowhere near the kind of racism a lot of black people face. Not the same origins, not the same consequences, not the same connotations. Which is why in the perspective of a lot of people it isn't the same thing. For you and me it still both falls under the term racism.

But I have no problem with the intellectual effort of defining the term broadly while still looking at it in a differentiated way. You on the other hand seem to see it in a very narrow way, hence how we got into this discussion.

Oh okay. Yea, probably got mixed up with that other discussion to much. Well yea I like to keep things simple. I can understand your reasons for broadening the definition. But that just creates more problems in my eyes. Racism is simple and bad period. Don't go nuancing or saying that racism is worse then that racism. Racism is racism and it is bad. Might not be to your liking but that is how I see it.

Racism is always bad, yes. But it is never simple. Saying it was is underestimating the problem, it is hubris. And especially if one is white, like I am, and underestimating racism comes naturally as racism has never affected me in any meaningful way, I've never been denied a job because of a Turkish name (which happens in my country), I've never been denied entry to a nightclub or whatever because of the colour of my skin (which happens in my country) and so many other examples I could name that don't apply to me, because I am privileged in that way, one cannot just downplay or oversimplify the issue, cannot say "bah, everyone is racist, what are ya gonna do?" and leave it at that, just because black people can say mean words, too. It is all racism but it is not all the same.

I have a language, I have a heart, I have to declare myself. Stand up against this. Speak out against this.

 

[iseko]

Racism is always bad, yes. But it is never simple. Saying it was is underestimating the problem, it is hubris. And especially if one is white, like I am, and underestimating racism comes naturally as racism has never affected me in any meaningful way, I've never been denied a job because of a Turkish name (which happens in my country), I've never been denied entry to a nightclub or whatever because of the colour of my skin (which happens in my country) and so many other examples I could name that don't apply to me, because I am privileged in that way, one cannot just downplay or oversimplify the issue, cannot say "bah, everyone is racist, what are ya gonna do?" and leave it at that, just because black people can say mean words, too. It is all racism but it is not all the same.

I have a language, I have a heart, I have to declare myself. Stand up against this. Speak out against this.

Yes. And I'm not arguing that. But racism is racism. HOWEVER. There is more racism towards black people, jews, etc... And I acknowledge this as a fact. This is what should be changed. If a person is declined a job because of his origin then this is pure racism and should be punished (severely). Making people aware that this still happens on a daily basis is very important. And I do mean VERY important. But you are not going to change this by changing the definition of racism. The definition is fine the way it is. Racism is racism and racism is bad. If you complicate or change the definition of racism then you are not changing anything useful. You are better defining the problem, true(in your case). Not changing shit though.

Changing the definition so black people can't be racist anymore: well that is just going to create more racism. A person should not be punished more severely because he is a white racist (I know that this is not what you are arguing for). Leave the definition as is and actually start punishing people for their bigot ways. And do this both ways.

 

[RoonMian]

Yes. And I'm not arguing that. But racism is racism. HOWEVER. There is more racism towards black people, jews, etc... And I acknowledge this as a fact. This is what should be changed. If a person is declined a job because of his origin then this is pure racism and should be punished (severely). Making people aware that this still happens on a daily basis is very important. And I do mean VERY important. But you are not going to change this by changing the definition of racism. The definition is fine the way it is. Racism is racism and racism is bad. If you complicate or change the definition of racism then you are not changing anything useful. You are better defining the problem, true(in your case). Not changing shit though.

Changing the definition so black people can't be racist anymore: well that is just going to create more racism. A person should not be punished more severely because he is a white racist (I know that this is not what you are arguing for). Leave the definition as is and actually start punishing people for their bigot ways. And do this both ways.

Well, I didn't do that. I mean changing the definition so that blacks can't be racist anymore.

Also I didn't change the definition of racism not to be about races. Fundamentally, the American Anthropological Association and other sociologists, anthropologists and other scientists, the peers all around the world who actually work with this stuff, study this stuff and define this stuff did that. In this thread I have explained the reasoning behind it. It just hasn't sunk into most people's heads yet.

And this change actually does change something. As I said, it stops perpetuating the myth that there are biological dividing lines between human beings.

 

[Steve Waltz]

The clown at 14:20 minutes in the video is pretty clueless, or is exaggerating for drama. Either way, he should keep his gob shut because he's embarrassing and discrediting himself.

The whites are rebelling because of racism guilt. I know that I would rebel in this situation. I've looked into the history books and I see racism as wrong, and that's exactly what the social experiment is about. These people in my opinion are heroes for walking about and not participating in a simulation of one of humanities biggest mistakes.

 

[Lightknight]

Basically the event is run by a woman who wants white people to understand racism. She segregates them into a blue-eyed group (all white) and a brown eyed group (mostly black/asian)

So she believes that all white people fail to understand racism? That's, somewhat funny to adhere to a racists stereotype to make a point about racism.

You're stretching a bit there. It's fair to say that many white people aren't very informed about racism, nobody said that all of them aren't.

It's a HUGE discussion in today's society. In what way are we uninformed about racism? Our generation is basically appalled at members of the previous generation we run across and society actively blacklists individuals who are shown to be racist.

Tell me, what don't we know about it? What are we missing? Who isn't getting taught that people should be judged by their actions and not the way they look? Who hasn't been taught about Jim Crow laws and the tragic practices of separate drinking fountains and all those terrible acts? It's standard lessons that have greatly removed prejudice in our generation. We find racism actively insulting and that's the sort of future that racism has even if the previous generations haven't quite gotten over it.

 

[Vegosiux]

Racism is always bad, yes. But it is never simple. Saying it was is underestimating the problem, it is hubris. And especially if one is white, like I am, and underestimating racism comes naturally as racism has never affected me in any meaningful way, I've never been denied a job because of a Turkish name (which happens in my country), I've never been denied entry to a nightclub or whatever because of the colour of my skin (which happens in my country) and so many other examples I could name that don't apply to me, because I am privileged in that way, one cannot just downplay or oversimplify the issue, cannot say "bah, everyone is racist, what are ya gonna do?" and leave it at that, just because black people can say mean words, too. It is all racism but it is not all the same.

See, that's the problem. Acknowledging that racism is widespread and not perpetrated by one particular subset of humanity is simply not the same as saying "Oh well" and then deciding to just ignore the whole bloody thing.

I can't really do much against "anti-black racism" around here, simply because there are hardly any black people around, and those that are don't seem to be treated any worse than others...I suppose nobody's feeling threatened by them, I don't know?

However, there's a lot of discrimination against immigrants from the other former Yugoslav republic, especially Bosnia. They're white, too, though, and the only difference is the culture and language (and sometimes religion). And I'm quite against people going batsthit over that, and I do make it quite clear that I simply won't put up with such behavior. I do care slightly less about black people half the world away because the discrimination around where I am is different, and closer to home.

So often I hear the phrase "Pick your battles". But then, in the same breath, get spat on for picking a different one.

I have a language, I have a heart, I have to declare myself. Stand up against this. Speak out against this.

I'm going to be cheeky and pull a little cynical move here, but if you consider the problem of racism something to be solved (like most of us do), why is it so important you assert it's you in the center of that solution?

I'm not trying to actually challenge you, or make you have to explain yourself, in the grand picture it's not really important. I just...often have this feeling that so many people "stand up for something" not for the benefit of what they're allegedly standing out for, but for their own benefit.

However, that's only on the internet. It's easier to tell if you've known someone in real life for a while...

Bwargh, sorry, just had to vent for a moment there.

 

[V4Viewtiful]

While we're on it, can anyone recall being on the on the receiving end of racism? In anyform.
Thank gawd I haven't I know enough from my mum to recognise covert/subtle racism but I've never been the victim of overt racism. seriously whether you've been called the n word by some random old white dude or chased down the road by some black youths

 

[Hawkeye21]

Heh, I love how various brands of Social Justice Warriors like to position themselves above racism. I bet they still shit their pants pretty bad, when approached by ghetto dressed blacks on the street at night. With good reason too.

Info based on FBI National Crime Victimization Survey and a lot of informative links:

Spoiler

http://www.examiner.com/article/federal-statistics-of-black-on-white-violence-with-links-and-mathematical-extrapolation-formulas

Blacks are seven times more likely than people of other races to commit murder, and eight times more likely to commit robbery.

Blacks are three times more likely to use a hand gun, and twice more likely to use a knife.

Hispanics commit three times more violent crimes than whites, but the statistics are nebulous because sometimes they are classified as white, so it could be far higher.

The best indicator of violent crime levels in an area is the percent of the population that is black and Hispanic.

Blacks are 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against whites then vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit a robbery.

Forty-five percent of black crime is against whites, 43 against other blacks, and 10 percent against Hispanic.

Blacks are seven times more likely to go to prison, Hispanics three times, and the reason is clear, because from 1980 to 2003 the US incarceration rate has tripled, and so proves that Justice is not only hard won, but well served.

Interracial Rape Statistics:

Spoiler

http://www.library.flawlesslogic.com/rape.htm
Studies from the late 1950s showed that the vast majority of rapes were same-race offenses. Research in Philadelphia carried out in 1958 and 1960 indicated that of all rapes, only 3.2 percent were black-on-white assaults and 3.6 percent were white-on-black. Since that time, the proportion of black-on-white rapes has soared. In a 1974 study in Denver, 40 percent of all rapes were of whites by blacks, and not one case of white-on-black rape was found. In general, through the 1970s, black-on-white rape was at least ten times more common that white-on-black rape. [319]

Because interracial rape is now overwhelmingly black on white, it has become difficult to do research on it or to find relevant statistics. The FBI keeps very detailed national records on crime, but the way it presents rape data obscures the racial element rather than clarifies it. Dr. William Wilbanks, a criminologist at Florida International University, had to sift carefully through the data to find that in 1988 there were 9,406 cases of black-on-white rape and fewer than ten cases of white-on-black rape. [320] Another researcher concludes that in 1989, blacks were three or four times more likely to commit rape than whites, and that black men raped white women thirty times as often as white men raped black women. [321]

Interracial crime figures are even worse than they sound. Since there are more than six times as many whites as blacks in America, it means that any given black person is vastly more likely to commit a crime against a white than vice versa.

I don't think racism among white people is caused by old prejudice anymore, it's more like a defense mechanism... I would probably be considered racist as fuck if I lived in USA. Though, during my work in Brazil I've had predominately non-white friends, so go figure.

 

[V4Viewtiful]

Heh, I love how various brands of Social Justice Warriors like to position themselves above racism. I bet they still shit their pants pretty bad, when approached by ghetto dressed blacks on the street at night. With good reason too.

Info based on FBI National Crime Victimization Survey and a lot of informative links:

Spoiler

http://www.examiner.com/article/federal-statistics-of-black-on-white-violence-with-links-and-mathematical-extrapolation-formulas

Blacks are seven times more likely than people of other races to commit murder, and eight times more likely to commit robbery.

Blacks are three times more likely to use a hand gun, and twice more likely to use a knife.

Hispanics commit three times more violent crimes than whites, but the statistics are nebulous because sometimes they are classified as white, so it could be far higher.

The best indicator of violent crime levels in an area is the percent of the population that is black and Hispanic.

Blacks are 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against whites then vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit a robbery.

Forty-five percent of black crime is against whites, 43 against other blacks, and 10 percent against Hispanic.

Blacks are seven times more likely to go to prison, Hispanics three times, and the reason is clear, because from 1980 to 2003 the US incarceration rate has tripled, and so proves that Justice is not only hard won, but well served.

Interracial Rape Statistics:

Spoiler

http://www.library.flawlesslogic.com/rape.htm
Studies from the late 1950s showed that the vast majority of rapes were same-race offenses. Research in Philadelphia carried out in 1958 and 1960 indicated that of all rapes, only 3.2 percent were black-on-white assaults and 3.6 percent were white-on-black. Since that time, the proportion of black-on-white rapes has soared. In a 1974 study in Denver, 40 percent of all rapes were of whites by blacks, and not one case of white-on-black rape was found. In general, through the 1970s, black-on-white rape was at least ten times more common that white-on-black rape. [319]

Because interracial rape is now overwhelmingly black on white, it has become difficult to do research on it or to find relevant statistics. The FBI keeps very detailed national records on crime, but the way it presents rape data obscures the racial element rather than clarifies it. Dr. William Wilbanks, a criminologist at Florida International University, had to sift carefully through the data to find that in 1988 there were 9,406 cases of black-on-white rape and fewer than ten cases of white-on-black rape. [320] Another researcher concludes that in 1989, blacks were three or four times more likely to commit rape than whites, and that black men raped white women thirty times as often as white men raped black women. [321]

Interracial crime figures are even worse than they sound. Since there are more than six times as many whites as blacks in America, it means that any given black person is vastly more likely to commit a crime against a white than vice versa.

I know these are just states but did the factor in social/economic status, I've read similar stuff like this before and often it's the large proportion of these offenses are n poor areas and a large proportion of one particular race is poor makes the stats more clearer, i'm not disproving the stats just saying, they are numbers that don't give a broad picture (infact, does this include the false rape charges and convictions?)

I don't think racism among white people is caused by old prejudice anymore, it's more like a defense mechanism... I would probably be considered racist as fuck if I lived in USA. Though, during my work in Brazil I've had predominately non-white friends, so go figure.

In every day life no I agree, even I clutch my fist when too many black people walk by me... But i'm paranoid and do that with white groups of men too, lol. XD

 

[RoonMian]

Racism is always bad, yes. But it is never simple. Saying it was is underestimating the problem, it is hubris. And especially if one is white, like I am, and underestimating racism comes naturally as racism has never affected me in any meaningful way, I've never been denied a job because of a Turkish name (which happens in my country), I've never been denied entry to a nightclub or whatever because of the colour of my skin (which happens in my country) and so many other examples I could name that don't apply to me, because I am privileged in that way, one cannot just downplay or oversimplify the issue, cannot say "bah, everyone is racist, what are ya gonna do?" and leave it at that, just because black people can say mean words, too. It is all racism but it is not all the same.

See, that's the problem. Acknowledging that racism is widespread and not perpetrated by one particular subset of humanity is simply not the same as saying "Oh well" and then deciding to just ignore the whole bloody thing.

I can't really do much against "anti-black racism" around here, simply because there are hardly any black people around, and those that are don't seem to be treated any worse than others...I suppose nobody's feeling threatened by them, I don't know?

However, there's a lot of discrimination against immigrants from the other former Yugoslav republic, especially Bosnia. They're white, too, though, and the only difference is the culture and language (and sometimes religion). And I'm quite against people going batsthit over that, and I do make it quite clear that I simply won't put up with such behavior. I do care slightly less about black people half the world away because the discrimination around where I am is different, and closer to home.

So often I hear the phrase "Pick your battles". But then, in the same breath, get spat on for picking a different one.

I have a language, I have a heart, I have to declare myself. Stand up against this. Speak out against this.

I'm going to be cheeky and pull a little cynical move here, but if you consider the problem of racism something to be solved (like most of us do), why is it so important you assert it's you in the center of that solution?

I'm not trying to actually challenge you, or make you have to explain yourself, in the grand picture it's not really important. I just...often have this feeling that so many people "stand up for something" not for the benefit of what they're allegedly standing out for, but for their own benefit.

However, that's only on the internet. It's easier to tell if you've known someone in real life for a while...

Bwargh, sorry, just had to vent for a moment there.

Are you fucking kidding me? Would you please stop putting things in my mouth I never said or wrote?

I never said one should just ignore one aspect of racism. Stop aspersing me saying I did.

I never said or implied I was at the center of the issue. Stop aspersing me saying I did.

You actually are not only challenging me, you are insulting me with your defamations.

 

[Steve Waltz]

After watching the whole video I have to say that it's comforting to know that some teachers in the UK are just as arrogant, stubborn and self-righteous as the ones in the USA.

Growing up, I had a teacher JUST like that. You would correct her on something that she would lie and say "I didn't say that, I said this!" That teacher was also totally arrogant, "Oh, I knew this already, so I don't have to pay attention." I mean, the black man on the brown-eyes team was explaining his experiences and his views on society with his child and how racism still IS a thing, but just subtle enough to where they have difficulty seeing it. He was doing his best to educate her as a normal and rational person and the white teacher just butted heads with him instead of accepting his views, "Oh yea?! Well my husband has to wear a suit, so it's the same thing!"

Saying that, I don't have a lot of nice things to say about the black mother either. She talked about racism being subtle and I agree, but she was being subtle in her own way. "This is a training exercise! We're teaching them!" And she goes on discriminating against other people. I would expect people that were discriminated against all their lives would know how wrong it is and not to do it. However, she was all too eager to discriminate against those people under the veil of it being educational. I feel that discrimination is bad no matter what, and I'm glad the white woman in the brown eyes group stood up for that view.


I'm familiar with Jane Elliott's test, but I had never seen it on adults before and I was really expecting more maturity from people familiar with the mistakes of slavery, oppression, and discrimination. The blue-eyed people just made a bunch of excuses and made it harder on themselves, while the video made it look like the brown-eyed people happily accepted the role of oppressors in an attempt to teach the blue-eyed people a lesson. Absolutely disgusting -- On both sides.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

The problem is not idiots and comically exaggerated/particularly egregious mistreatment. I've never seen anyone treated the way that video suggests for their race and frankly, as all television is, I think it's staged to an extent. The problem is racism that wears a pleasant face, ie. people who act like anyone else in society, and it isn't hard to conceal, but who vote for keeping asylum seekers out or make questionable employment decisions. Keep in mind that I'm still talking about things with clear physical impacts but that stem from racist attitudes, NOT something like the race of a character in a videogame created without intending to send a message about race having some kind of subconscious impact on the opinions of the population. Maybe that's a discussion worth having, but I'm a pretty firm believer in that promoting acceptance and understanding is going to naturally lead to as good media portrayal, employment representation and general treatment as can be expected and I am firmly against jumping to conclusions or enforcing false equality to get there for appearances' sake.

 

[Vegosiux]

-snip-

Now, if you have a point in response to what I said, please go ahead.

If you want to elaborate on what you said to clear up misunderstandings, please go ahead.

If you wish to ask me to elaborate and clear up where I am coming from, by all means, go ahead.

But if you're just going to hiss at me, I'm not going to pay a lot of attention.

 

[Anti Nudist Cupcake]

Racism is not a just a point of view, a few mean words or even violence.
It's a system, put in place by the dominant ethnic group/creed/race of the home country in order to halt the progress and development through social, educational, economically and by lawful means.

In conclusion, anyone claiming "reverse racism", they are dumb When someone says Black people can't be racist they are correct. Use bigot.

In South Africa, a system IS in place by the dominant ethnic group/creed/race of the home country in order to halt the progress and development through social, educational, economically and by lawful means.
There is a legal system, put in place by the dominant black majority, who dominates the government, to halt white men from progressing in careers and education.

Black people can totally be racist.

 

[V4Viewtiful]

Racism is not a just a point of view, a few mean words or even violence.
It's a system, put in place by the dominant ethnic group/creed/race of the home country in order to halt the progress and development through social, educational, economically and by lawful means.

In conclusion, anyone claiming "reverse racism", they are dumb When someone says Black people can't be racist they are correct. Use bigot.

In South Africa, a system IS in place by the dominant ethnic group/creed/race of the home country in order to halt the progress and development through social, educational, economically and by lawful means.
There is a legal system, put in place by the dominant black majority, who dominates the government, to halt white men from progressing in careers and education.

Black people can totally be racist.

I already said early racism favor the dominating race or the race with the most power, in this instance you are correct as it applies to the African world, as opposed to the western one(speaking of South Africa, that is rather ironic).

 

[SacremPyrobolum]

In all things, strive not to be a ****. If one is not a ****, one will find that only cunts will harass them.

 

[verdant monkai]

The black woman in the suit had a right chip on her shoulder.

 

[V4Viewtiful]

The black woman in the suit had a right chip on her shoulder.

A lot of Black women do, many reasons contribute to it. I don't want to get into that because that involves racism, feminism AND cosmetics and a bunch of other stuff