About the Amendment II.

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Liminal Dusk

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See, I agree with Whitemage, but even if you twist the words, it doesn't seem to make much difference. The text provided argues on behalf of the people. And why'd you link me to the wikipedia definition, James? The definition provided there uses terms such as "generally" and is clearly not authoritative in any sense of the word. The "clearly" in your "this clearly states that only militia..." is a pretty big reach. How is it clear in the least?

Whitemage is right. If the redcoats across the street at the time qualified as the "militia" (which your logic says they did), then I doubt then that civilians defending themselves against tyranny would be condemned in the constitution.
 

dangerousdave_42

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my thoughts is why if a militia was the only expected outlet for guns to be used why is it that the founding fathers had no problem whatsoever with people during their era owning guns who were not in a militia
 

dangerousdave_42

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my thoughts is why if a militia was the only expected outlet for guns to be used why is it that the founding fathers had no problem whatsoever with people during their era owning guns who were not in a militia
 

Good morning blues

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I would personally read the second amendment the same way that the OP is, but unfortunately the US Supreme Court did not [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller].
 

Sewblon

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That is not the full second amendment. The full second amendment states "A well regulated Militia,being necessary to the security of a free State, The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." The second amendment does protect the rights of all citizens of the United States to own guns.

Gun control does not prevent people from killing each other, look at Newyork City.
 

SkinnySlim

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1. U.S. gun ownership is regulated, and if people want to use a gun illegally, they are going to get a gun anyway, look up the Iron River coming up from mexico.
2. The amendment is not only for a militia, it is so the people can protect themselves from their own government. It's not about home protection, it's about homeland protection.
3. Idiots allow people to accidentally kill people with guns everyday, but idiots also kill people with cars everyday. So, let's just go ahead and ban them too!
4. Most folks debating this issue have zero exposure to gun ownership issues, it's mostly folks in their own little gun "free" bubble talking down to responsible owners like we are some sort of wild west renegade posse. Usually, when I don't know much about an issue, I keep my mouth shut (hint).
 

sheic99

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Mariena said:
Shucks. What would happen if America was to ban all firearms, meaning you'd have to have a license to own firearms?
What the fuck are you talking about? You have to get a license for a gun in America, plus a seven week background check on handguns. A ban would prevent guns from being sold period.
 

Samirat

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"The right of the people to keep and bear arms"

The amendment doesn't even say you have that right. It's a given, apparently. It just says that it can't be infringed. I mean, it's not even a complete sentence, but the fact that it says "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" does seem to indicate that there is such a right. You can be against people keeping and bearing arms, but I think you'll find that under the infringement category of that amendment. Feel free to change the Constitution, if you think you can.
 

Mariena

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sheic99 said:
Mariena said:
Shucks. What would happen if America was to ban all firearms, meaning you'd have to have a license to own firearms?
What the fuck are you talking about? You have to get a license for a gun in America, plus a seven week background check on handguns. A ban would prevent guns from being sold period.
Oh dear oh dear OH DEAR! What the fuck am I talking about? That's how you have to get your point across?

I'm very sorry that I got something wrong, dear sir. You could at least not be an ass about it. Thanks.

'sides, isn't it dependent on the state you live in?

Still, I wonder how all these accidents happen if the guns are so ridiculously regulated. Yes, I know that the media likes all these accidents and will probably highlight each of them. It's apparently so heavily regulated that soccer moms and dads can get their hands on a handgun. Wow.
 

dangerousdave_42

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sheic99 said:
What the fuck are you talking about? You have to get a license for a gun in America, plus a seven week background check on handguns. A ban would prevent guns from being sold period.
well truth be told that is very dependent on the state I live in Wyoming which probably sits as one of the least restrictive gun control states all you need to get a rifle is to be eighteen with no past of mental illness and no felony's and pass the background check that takes about twenty minuets and for handguns just substitute eighteen for twenty one. That being said even though every one and their mom owns a gun in Wyoming people are not fleeing in terror and we don't have violent gun massacres every week heck my mom does not even bother to lock the door.
 

thiosk

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How about you live your life in your mothers basement the way you want to live it, and I'll live my life in my own home clinging to muh guns and muh religion fer sekurity.

live and let live, me having a gun isn't going to infringe on your right to live, and you taking my gun away isn't going to stop some gangbanger from knocking down your door and pistol whipping you.

On the other hand, if the gangbanger comes in my house, he won't be around to pistol whip anyone else ever again.
 

sneakypenguin

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sheic99 said:
Mariena said:
Shucks. What would happen if America was to ban all firearms, meaning you'd have to have a license to own firearms?
What the fuck are you talking about? You have to get a license for a gun in America, plus a seven week background check on handguns. A ban would prevent guns from being sold period.
Hmmm I walked into a gun shop and walked out with this http://www.teamglock.com/Glock-Buyers-Guide/Glock-32.htm in 30 min. Not to mention gun shows private individuals where you don't need a backround check. Or you can buy them off the street(stolen)



This debate on this is sort of redundant as the supreme court ruled it an individual right a few months ago......


thiosk said:
Quoted for "ping"
Hey a fellow "bitter clinger"! as Our great master Obama labels us.
 

dangerousdave_42

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now personally I think background checks at gun shows are reasonable and one of the few things I have a strong disagreement with the NRA. Recently I traded in a revolver at a gun show for a .22 semi automatic and it was somewhat disheartening when the guy did not even bother to see my id much less do a background check.
 

sneakypenguin

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dangerousdave_42 said:
now personally I think background checks at gun shows are reasonable and one of the few things I have a strong disagreement with the NRA. Recently I traded in a revolver at a gun show for a .22 semi automatic and it was somewhat disheartening when the guy did not even bother to see my id much less do a background check.
Hmm an issue with backround checks is that how can I as an individual sell a gun(there are ways just more difficult) would I have to have a middleman transfer the gun and do a check or what.
 

SimuLord

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Aug 20, 2008
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Mariena said:
Shucks. What would happen if America was to ban all firearms, meaning you'd have to have a license to own firearms?

Some say that there will be 'mass robberies' and all that, because civilians will no longer have a gun to protect themselves against armed robbers. Other the other hand, I'm of the opinion that this is a load of bullwhacky because criminals will get their guns anyway.

In The Netherlands, for instance, it's illegal to carry firearms. It's illegal to own firearms, unless you have a license. And even that's checked regularly and you'd have to pass certain regulations and bla bla bla legal stuff.

We don't have guns, and we don't seem to have mass murders by psycho kids that took their dad's shotgun. But we also don't seem to have a stupid amount of armed robberies. We don't seem to have a stupid amount of criminals breaking into people houses with their guns, because the civilians living in those houses don't have a gun.

There are obviously still criminals with firearms. They'll always get their weapons through other means. So, if you ask me.. Get rid of that second Amendment.
Everywhere American cities and states have passed private concealed-carry permit laws, the violent crime rate has gone down because criminals now have to weigh the probability that their victim may be armed and within his rights to shoot and consider if the crime is worth that risk of death that comes from not knowing who's packing.

On the flip side of that coin, the laws in Britain are such that if someone invades your home you might as well pour them a cup of tea and ask them would they please kindly not steal from you because if you shoot them you're the one guilty of murder in the first.

It may be some inherent cultural superiority in the Netherlands (or Scandinavian countries, which have the same strictures against gun violence and the same low rates of personal and property crime) or it may just be that continental Europe has cameras everywhere in the cities so criminals know anything they do may be caught on tape. In America, where that level of surveillance is (for now) considered to run afoul of the Fourth Amendment (and possibly the Fifth), we need a...shall we say, more direct way of dealing with the problem.

American gun ownership and rights of self-defense is rooted in this country's individualistic culture and outlook, something continental Europe rather famously doesn't abide by---as P.J. O'Rourke said of Sweden in Eat the Rich, "Sweden has created this wonderful system for achieving economic equality, but it only works on Swedes."
 

SimuLord

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Cahlee said:
Guns = death. The end.
Besides being brutally fucking obvious, what point were you trying to make there? I rather like having the option to inflict death on someone under certain circumstances like, say, someone trying to break into my house and threaten my family, my life, and my property. There are certain cases where a 12 gauge shotgun needs to be used to make a point.

Does this mean that I (or any reasonable non-fucked-up person) am going to walk into my friendly neighborhood Catholic church on Sunday and shoot altar boys simply because I am allowed by law to protect myself and those close to me? No, and the big key here is that an armed populace is a safe populace precisely because it levels the playing field between decent people and violent crazy people (to say nothing of the government---lord knows for awhile there a revolution was a pretty damned plausible option and depending on how the next few years go it still might be one.)