After getting and watching Force Awakens again...

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

But why ANAKIN'S lightsaber!? Why not Luke's!? You know, the lightsaber that DIDN'T fall down into cloud city's namesake clouds!? And while the Force does grant visions, visons coming from lightsabers is so far out of left field that the player out there is confused! They've NEVER done that before!

Also, we don't know if Poe has the force yet. Bet ya he will. The only thing protectin him from the Sue accusations was how long he was in the movie, and I doubt that'll hold by the time others come out.

Not to mention, while wise old mentors ARE a dime a dozen in the Hero's journy, how many of them are oddly colored tiny aliens? The only major difference between Yoda and the orange is that Yoda was green and spoke oddly.

Presumably because Luke still had his lightsaber. Also it fell into the bowels of Cloud City, nowhere does it get seen being sucked out a vent/waste disposal chute/etc. Plus its a historical weapon with massive significance, which helps the whole idea of homage to the original stories.

I'm also doubting that Poe will be force strong, considering if he were Ren wouldn't have gotten into his mind easily. He's the Wedge of this generation, all skill with no help from the Force and since he's a pilot and trained that way he's damn good. Also he still fails and ends up being shot down in the TIE Fighter which is also insulation from being the Gary Stu.

Also in the whole Star Wars universe, there are multiple types of aliens (shown to be incredibly diverse in color and shape in the Mos Eisley cantina scene) and having one of the minor characters be an alien of non-humanocentric coloration isn't far off the beaten path. Its not Yoda just because she's short and oddly colored. She's no hermit either, nor hiding from the rest of the galaxy in any way. If anyone is the Yoda, its Luke. So there are many other differences between Maz and Yoda, you're just ignoring them to make a point.

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

But why ANAKIN'S lightsaber!? Why not Luke's!? You know, the lightsaber that DIDN'T fall down into cloud city's namesake clouds!?

It didn't fall into the clouds, it fell into the lower levels of Cloud City. We have no reason to believe that it fell out of the city entirely. All that needs to happen is for some technician to have picked up the light saber years later. And why Anikin's, because it is thematically more important to Kylo Ren's arc, and Luke probably still has his.

And while the Force does grant visions, visons coming from lightsabers is so far out of left field that the player out there is confused! They've NEVER done that before!

Visions coming from objects or places is established in Empire. Luke is granted a vision about Darth Vader and himself by walking into a force relevant cave, why can't Rey get a vision about the force by picking up a sufficiently important and force related historical artifact?

You think trying to get the Princess Leia quietly and without fuss isn't a reason to try the mind trick?

Oh, it's a reason alright. A very good one. But as I said, Luke's last instinct was to use the force. He was not even trying to be force sensitive, he was shown to not be very accepting of his powers (which as we have established is possibly the most important thing he could do for them to manifest.)

As for why I don't think the Mind Trick should've worked for Rey it's purely because she has no idea what the force can do, nor how to do it. Every other unconcious usage of it till this movie was better timing, better reflexes, and better jumping in times of duress. She knows you can probe minds, but that's about it. Yes there are legends, but I rather doubt legends are gonna go into great deatail on how he did it beyond "he used da force to do it."

Do you really think the legends about the invincible wizard warrior doesn't include tales of how he could manipulate and control minds with a suggestion? And since when did doing anything with the force require detailed technical know how? Luke can sense laser blasts and allow the force to flow through him, giving him both super reflexes and extra sensory perception after Obi Wan gives him a couple seconds explanation. And that was lesson 1 on using the force. He also makes a near impossible shot with nothing more than "let go! Use the force!" in way of explanation.

As for Luke and telekinesis, How much time passed between episodes 4 and 5? A few months to a year or two? You really think Luke is gonna be sitting on his ass doing nothing with the force in all that time? More likely than not he trained and worked it out on his own, or possibly with Obi-Wan's ghost guiding him still.

Possibly. But if we are going to infer that is the source of Luke's abilities, then why is the extremely heavily telegraphed suggestion that Rey has previous experience with the force not a good enough explanation for her abilities? After all, she likely had far, far more formal training than Luke ever did and was likely taught to integrate the force into her life from a very young age. She's probably been using the force constantly for her entire life on an unconscious level, and now that she has realized her powers she is using them consciously for the first time.

And how long did Rey have on that ship with Han Solo? How many specific questions do you think they asked him about Luke and his abilities? We have no reason to suppose the journey was completed instantly.

Also, figuring out how to empower yourself with the force by watching Ren fight? The most noticible thing he openly showed there was force push. Everything else was straight up combat. Even that striking his wond thing could be written off as trying to keep himself from passing out.

The force grants extra sensory perception, including a sensitivity to the force used by others. Established in episode IV. It is no great leap to suggest that a force sensitive person observing a force user is going to get more out of it than a normal person would.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Christ, Starkiller from the Force Unleashed doesn't get this many accusations of being a Sue. And he beat Vader and the Emperor.

Actually, this raises a thought.

While plenty of people (Including me) were put off by Starkiller's bullshit abilities, many other's weren't, presumably because he was actually the player, and as we usually do with characters we control, we expect to be over powered/completely awesome. Sometimes, this also occurs in movies, as we insert ourselves into the characters we see on the screen.

Could part of the reason people seem to get so violently upset about Rey 'The Sue' being successful because we, the (Male) viewer, simply have a harder time putting ourselves into a females place?

It's almost certainly not the case for everyone, and I don't want to put that on anyone in this thread, but could that be part of the problem for some people? Not an overt sexist issue, simply an inability to empathize (For lack of a better word) with the opposite gender?

 

[Kolby Jack]

Christ, Starkiller from the Force Unleashed doesn't get this many accusations of being a Sue. And he beat Vader and the Emperor.

Actually, this raises a thought.

While plenty of people (Including me) were put off by Starkiller's bullshit abilities, many other's weren't, presumably because he was actually the player, and as we usually do with characters we control, we expect to be over powered/completely awesome. Sometimes, this also occurs in movies, as we insert ourselves into the characters we see on the screen.

Could part of the reason people seem to get so violently upset about Rey 'The Sue' being successful because we, the (Male) viewer, simply have a harder time putting ourselves into a females place?

It's almost certainly not the case for everyone, and I don't want to put that on anyone in this thread, but could that be part of the problem for some people? Not an overt sexist issue, simply an inability to empathize (For lack of a better word) with the opposite gender?

Could be. Although I have no problems with Rey, I do tend to stick to male characters in games that let you choose because playing a female doesn't allow me to get into it as much ("muh immershun!"). The only exception so far has been Mass Effect, because I just like Femshep's voice acting a lot more.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Christ, Starkiller from the Force Unleashed doesn't get this many accusations of being a Sue. And he beat Vader and the Emperor.

Actually, this raises a thought.

While plenty of people (Including me) were put off by Starkiller's bullshit abilities, many other's weren't, presumably because he was actually the player, and as we usually do with characters we control, we expect to be over powered/completely awesome. Sometimes, this also occurs in movies, as we insert ourselves into the characters we see on the screen.

Could part of the reason people seem to get so violently upset about Rey 'The Sue' being successful because we, the (Male) viewer, simply have a harder time putting ourselves into a females place?

It's almost certainly not the case for everyone, and I don't want to put that on anyone in this thread, but could that be part of the problem for some people? Not an overt sexist issue, simply an inability to empathize (For lack of a better word) with the opposite gender?

OR, and this is just me here, perhaps people tend to have different standards when it comes to Video Game Player characters, and the main characters in movies. I mean, outside of adventure games like the Monkey Island series, it's VERY rare to find people who WANT to play as the kind of character who is very much a stumbling rookie who has no idea what they're doing. They generally want to be a badass among badasses who could stomp mudholes in dragons.

Meanwhile, a character like that tends to make for VERY dull movies outside of stupid action movies where the point is almost entirely "BLOW IT ALL UP REAL GOOD!". Where's the tension when there's absolutely nothing that can possibly stand in their way?

Also, impossible to empathize with the oppossite sex? Yeah, got a few words on that dude. Lara Croft (OG Lara. Not the one they have now.) Samus Aran (Before Other M anyway), Fiona Belle (Who is one of the few exceptions to my "No one wants to be a non-badass" rule and is excused primarily due to her genre of game, Jade from Beyond Good and Evil, every single female character from almost any fighting game, Just about every Resident Evil Game since the first one with the exception of 4, and so on and so forth. There are PLENTY of games where you're expected to play as, and thus empathize with, the opposite sex. Just because you don't go looking for them doesn't mean they aren't there.

Snip

Wait wait wait wait. Biggs was the Rebellion's best pilot? Since when? And Luke lasted longer against Vader than the Rebellion's best pilot? That's not Gary Stuish at all?

Well, thank you for providing yet more evidence that the people claiming Luke is a Stu have most likely never seen any Star Wars movie beyond Episode 7. I mean, it's not hard to theorize but proof is always nice.

No, it's NOT Gary Stuish. The only reason Biggs died was because he was BEHIND Luke because Luke was in the position for a bombing run, and he and Wedge were in a position to help keep fighters off his back which they did. He and Wedge were taken out of commission and it took Darth freaking Vader to do it. The only reason Luke didn't also die in that run was because Han Solo came in and caught Vader off guard. Not to mention Biggs saved Luke's butt before that when he couldn't shake a Tie Fighter.

(As an aside, Wedge then went on to take Bigg's place as the Rebelion's best pilot. Luke was always AMONG the best, but even with the Force he never measured up to Wedge. Of course that's the OLD EU so who knows. Perhaps Space Diapers guy decided Luke became the bestest pilot evar and Wedge was just some dude with an awesome lucky streak to survive The first Death Star, Hoth, AND the Death Star 2.)

I seem to recall Rey spending the entire chase nearly getting downed with TIE fighters right on her six. He stated he could hit a target that another pilot stated was impossible "Even for a computer" and Luke said he could do it because bullshit about Wamp Rats. I fail to see how that's not Stuish.

Number one, rewatch that scene. Yeah the Ties were on her, but she was able to manuver something like The Falcon through a number of tight cramped spaces while the smaller and more maneuverable Ties were having trouble keeping up (At least one of them ended up crashing into something.) leading to the moment she opted to shut off the engine mid flight so Finn could get in the last shot. Bit of a difference from claiming to be able to make a hard shot.

(Also, because I can already see this coming, YES I know Lando was able to pilot the Falcon through The Death Star 2 which was, if anything, even WORSE than the wrechage canyon but there's a few things of note here. One, Lando had a co-pilot with him which was mentioned as being somewhat needed in Episode 7, and two, Lando was the guy who owned the thing before Han! He'd already established having prior experience flying the thing, so he should know how it handles. If Rey was ever mentioned flying the Falcon, it never happened in the movie.)

Also, part of the point of Luke even bringing up that point was to basically tell the viewer that Luke has had experience flying and shooting from a ship so him participating in the Death Star run didn't strike the audience as a "wait, what?" moment. At the very least it provided more information than Episode 7 ever did for Rey's piloting skills beyond "Force did it. Force is instant win button!"

Less couldn't do and more never bothered to try. The Jedi Mind Trick is clearly less about the skill of the user and more about the mental state of the person as the receiving end, which is why Jedi Grand Masters like Qui-Gon can't even use it on someone like Watto and Luke can't use it on Jabba.

Yes, skill has NOTHING to do with it. That's why Revan and The Exile can't learn a version of the mind Trick that can influence even Toydarians OH WAIT.

Believing in yourself really hard? Welcome to Star Wars. Luke did the same shit in A New Hope when he used the force to guide torpedoes into the exhaust port because Obi-Wan told him to use the force.

He didn't guide them in, Lucas himself admitted that he screwed up with that bit.

What's with the strong independent woman in quotations? Wandering around without raising an alarm, happened quite often in the first movie. And they were dragging a Wookie around. Mainly because guards tend to be on low alert when guarding an impregnable fortress, even more so when Starkiller base specifically had shields up to keep people out. And how was she supposed to get out? Fly a TIE fighter that she doesn't know how to operate? Avoiding the fighters that would've certainly been coming after her, like Finn and Poe in the beginning? Just because you don't like her doesn't mean you get to make things up about her.

I use that in quotations because S.I.W. is generally code for Uninteresting Lady who solves all the problems. Seriously, look at almost any lady who has that description, and see how many differences in personality they have. It's basically a new form of tokenism. You also forget that Han and Luke were dragging Chewie around while Chewie was in cuffs, and the amazing duo were disguised as Stormtroopers who were escorting him. That didn't stop the place from going on high alert after the shooting started. (Though it's a moot point anyway considering the Empre was trying to get them to have Leia to the Rebel base so they could track them down.)

And Tie fighter she doesn't know how to operate? By all accounts in the movie she didn't know how to operate the Falcon. Didn't stop the force from basically having her fly it almost as well as Han and Lando while lacking a co-pilot.

So he warmed up to her? I can think of a certain blonde desert dwelling Skywalker who can claim the same. Considering that was before Han mellowed out.

He warmed up to a character who almost killed him over a Jacket. It also took nearly the entire movie for Han to START warming up to Luke, Finn was fawning on Rey from almost the word go.

Christ, Starkiller from the Force Unleashed doesn't get this many accusations of being a Sue. And he beat Vader and the Emperor.

Starkiller was a player character. No one wants to play as a bungling weakling. Starkiller was also apprentenced to Darth Vader. ANYONE who survives Sith training methods is a badass by default. The Emperor didn't lose. He threw that fight. See what happens when you take the dark side option, he basically cripples Starkiller and puts him in a Vaderesque suit.

As an aside, yes. People have different standards for playable characters in videogames, and lead characters in movies. Shock and awe.

And to everyone who says that beleif is all you need to be good with the force, allow me to retort.



Guess most of these guys should've believed harder huh?

 

[Ravinoff]

My theory is that the First Order and the other Imperial Remnant are collectively stronger then the Galactic Republic, so the logic is that they have half the galaxy free and can't hope to get the other half so if they give the remnants a single enemy, so letting them be decided by their own politics means at least there is peace in the galaxy and freedom in half of it. Which wouldn't be unprecedented given the Galactic Empire and Republic spend a decade at peace between their decades long first and second Sith wars.

The Imperial Remnant are definitely more powerful than the New Republic, even disregarding the de-canonized Expanded Universe. Think about it, Luke may have killed the leaders of the Empire in ROTJ (between the Executor and Death Star II, you're probably looking at a major portion of the admiralty and leadership, plus the Emperor and Vader), but there are still all the regional moffs and assorted other ranking officers who suddenly found themselves in control of whatever fleet assets they were in command of at the time. But with no overall leadership and no organization, you end up with a bunch of petty warlords who the New Republic essentially ignore while they get their shit together.

Something similar happens in the EU stuff, where the Imperial Remnant fuck off to their strongholds in the Deep Core worlds, and the agreement is basically "you leave us alone, we'll leave you alone" with the New Republic. Of course, in the end that pays off for the Republic, when - and I want to kick myself for being this huge of a nerd - the Imperial Remnant are key in turning the tide against the Yuuzhan Vong. Turns out Star Destroyers are a handy thing to keep around.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

But why ANAKIN'S lightsaber!? Why not Luke's!? You know, the lightsaber that DIDN'T fall down into cloud city's namesake clouds!? And while the Force does grant visions, visons coming from lightsabers is so far out of left field that the player out there is confused! They've NEVER done that before!

Anakin's lightsaber has a much stronger emotional connection, because it's the same one he used as a Jedi, the same one he used to killed Jedi children, and the same one that Obi-Wan passed down to his son in Episode 4.

By contrast, Luke's lightsaber is much newer, and all it's really done on-screen is kill some of Jabba's guards and cut off Vader's robo-hand.

If you're going to pick a random historical item that triggers plot-relevant trippy dream sequences, you go with the one that has more history. Plus, it's a nice counterpoint to how Kylo Ren keeps Vader's helmet and treats it as some kind of holy relic. Ren is desperate to be Vader, so the lightsaber's connection to Vader would be perfect for him...but Rey refuses it for the same reason, because becoming someone like Vader terrifies her.

Also, force visions are an established part of the canon. [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_vision] Anakin's visions in the prequels tell him that his mother is in danger (iirc) and that Padme is going to die. Palpatine's ability to mess with the Jedi's ability to see the future is why he was able to hide from them from so long, despite being crazy strong in the Force. And I don't know how authoritative you consider the video games, but in the Old Republic, they love giving you vague force visions as plot hooks. The latest content patch is even called "Visions in the Dark" or something.

[Actually, this raises a thought.

While plenty of people (Including me) were put off by Starkiller's bullshit abilities, many other's weren't, presumably because he was actually the player, and as we usually do with characters we control, we expect to be over powered/completely awesome. Sometimes, this also occurs in movies, as we insert ourselves into the characters we see on the screen.

Could part of the reason people seem to get so violently upset about Rey 'The Sue' being successful because we, the (Male) viewer, simply have a harder time putting ourselves into a females place?

It's almost certainly not the case for everyone, and I don't want to put that on anyone in this thread, but could that be part of the problem for some people? Not an overt sexist issue, simply an inability to empathize (For lack of a better word) with the opposite gender?

This is definitely an intriguing question, but I don't really think it's the case. Well, it might be, but I'm not in a position to see it because I didn't think Rey was too Mary Sue-ish to start with. (No more than Luke, anyway.) The "chosen one" being inexplicably good at a variety of things is basically part of the setting at this point.

I think...well, I mostly play guys in video game RPGs, mostly because I'm a guy, and any time I'm asked to invest in a character, I automatically parse them as masculine. But I haven't had problems empathising with playable female characters; I think I just do it in a different way. Rather than think "this is me" I think "this is a lady who is not me, but who I still empathise with as a result of the narrative."

I also think the process of relating to a character is different for films than video games. In a video game, the interactivity means you're directly involved in the character. That might make it harder for the player to view them as a surrogate if they're of the opposite sex or gender. In a film, you don't have any control over what the characters do in the plot; it's less "This is me" and more "This is some people doing some stuff."

So, yeah. Interesting question, but I don't think it's the case mainly because I don't think films ask you to put yourself in a film character's place the way video games do. I think a more probable cause for people thinking Rey is a Mary Sue or whatever is just fanboy irritation. I mean, it's technically true - she is good at a lot of stuff she has no business being good at - but it's a franchise original sin. Anakin and Luke were both inexplicably good pilots, with Luke somehow translating the sci-fi equivalent of piloting a crop duster into flying military spacecraft against a moon-sized space station and Anakin being both a swordsman on the level of "fight a Sith Lord while I'm still a padawan" and also building his own goddamn sentient robot when he was eight goddamn years old.

The whole thing just makes me more convinced that my theory that she's a Skywalker is true.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Don't you fucking start with me. I know who the best pilot in the Rebellion is. And Biggs Darklighter is not how you spell Wedge Antilles. But please, source me when it was EVER implied that Biggs held Wedge like status in the Rebellion. Because from what I found, the attack on the Death Star was the ONLY mission he ever flew in.

Surviving against the best pilot in the Empire far longer than any other pilot in the attack. Yeah, it's Gary Stuish. There a peroid when he was on his own, and it was taking Vader much longer than usual to frag him. He wasn't saying "The force is strong with this one" just to fill an awkward silence. In that case, Han is also a Gary Stu because he somehow got the drop on Darth Vader. See how fucking pointless going into Stu/Sue arguments is? Anyone who has ever done something impressive can apply. Oh and Wedge was the one who saved Luke, not Biggs. And you're accusing others of not having seen the movies. I find that fucking hilarious.

Not a hard shot, a physically impossible shot, hence the "Even for a computer" aspect to the conversation. And I seem to recall Luke being able to not get fragged by that TIE pretty well until help arrived. Despite this being his first dogfight ever. And TIE fighers are extremely fast and extremely fragile. They're not supposed to operate in enclosed spaces. The Falcon is slower and tougher. It's funny you mention Return of the Jedi, because a TIE crashes in exactly the same way in that movie. And I don't get why it's ok for Lando to be able to do it because he's got some weird alien thing doing...thing, and it's a ship he owned a freaking long time ago. I imagine piloting a space ship isn't like owning a bicycle, it's not something you can just hop back into after a long time, and that's without considering the mods Han most likely made to it.

If one line of dialogue is enough to establish skills, you're setting the bar pretty freaking low. It's called "Show don't tell." Rey said that she flew ships before, how come that doesn't apply too? Luke never said where he learned how to dogfight or operate an X-wing, I don't see why its ok for him and not for Rey.

Yeah, and Starkiller could bring down a star destroyer, video game characters are bullshit. Your point?

Lucas also said that he screwed up making Han shoot first. IE, who gives a fuck what he thinks?

I don't see it. Yeah a Wookie that no one else felt needed to be interrogated or properly processed. I'm not military expert, but I'm pretty sure that two random privates can't just take a prisoner deep into a highly secure base without confirming it with their superior. Another thing, Luke and Han know nothing about properly military protocol. They should've blown their cover long before they got to the holding block. They didn't though, because protagonist. Almost as well as Han and Lando? I don't recall the times they crashed the Falcon three seconds after taking off. And the Falcon was in the yard her caretaker owned. More justification that Luke being able to fly an X-wing no problem, and no one had a problem with him doing that.

Yeah, and she and Poe warmed up to a character that stood by and watched while a massacre took place and used to work for the enemy. Where are you going with this?

That's a crappy defense. He's a player character? So video game characters can never be Stus? Bullshit. No one wants to play as a weakling? I guess Horror fans don't exist anymore. And there's a difference between not a weakling and the shit Starkiller gets up to. Kills Jedi Masters, pulls a star destroyer out of orbit, beats Vader, what a crock of shit. I take back what I said earlier about the term being pointless for someone like him, he's a fucking Gary Stu, and no amount of "he's a player character" defense will change that. He still kills way too many powerful people, even if the Emperor throws the fight. And in that dark side expansion, he adds Obi-Wan and Luke to the list of people whose asses that he's kicked. Gary. Stu.

I'm guessing because the standard for story telling in gaming is considered to be that low? Pardon me for expecting games to be on par with other media. Games can do more than make people feel powerful.

Well I didn't say that, so why'd you bring it up? It's what happened in the first movie to save the day. Training helps, but its clear that believing in the force is enough to save the day when you're untrained. And you accuse others of not having seen the first movie.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

snip

Yeah, it's late, so I'm not gonna go through all that for a second time, so let me just reiterate. Luke didn't outlast Biggs because he was better than him. He outlasted him because Biggs was doing his freaking job in trying to keep the Ties off of Luke. Skill had nothing to do with it, nor did talent, nor did the Force. Heck, the fact that Wedge survived came down to Sheer luck as well. Biggs just wasn't as lucky.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

Because it's a poorly written remake of the original trilogy? As some have said here, in places it's almost shot for shot. Poor writing and bad acting were fine in the original trilogy, because it brought groundbreaking special effects to the table, and it was sci-fi fantasy in a time when you got VERY FUCKING LITTLE of that.

Times have changed, so now they're just pumping nostalgia for money.

It's not a shot-for-shot remake. It hits all the same notes as episode 4, but calling it a shot-for-shot remake is just...not true.

A shot-for-shot remake is where the scenes are set up and filmed almost identically, like Spike Lee's version of Oldboy, or Gus van Sant remaking Psycho. That isn't the case with TFFA. The story is the same. The scenes are different.

 

[Pseudonym]

This is a universe where a military force builts equipment the seize of a mediumsized moon or small planet, and armours it such that it can be blown up by a single fightercraft or by a guy tripping in the command room. Twice. This military force also employs countless soldiers who can't hit the broad side of a barn and who, when searching a bar, apparently fail to guard the entrance. From how I understand the star wars lore, nobody has any understanding on how militairy operations (or anything else) should be run, everyone stumbles their way through everything, and you need the force to have the slightest bit of common sense. ("Lord Vader, we cannot find the plans we seek and an unmanned craft has escaped. We require you to put two and two together here and tell us to seek the unmanned craft.") You need to be pretty much the best jedi ever to realize the unbelievably obvious that Luke Skywalker is a useless buffoon and that recruiting Leia was the superior choice from the start. I find it baffling that only Yoda sees this. So that the new republic would be unable to field any kind of worthwhile army even though they defeated a hostile force that still exists mere decades ago, doesn't sound so crazy. I can see a state that perceives itself to be safe dismantling large parts of their army and regretting that later on so this sounds like a relatively explainable plothole. If we can't find any explanation I'm going with 'everyone besides arguably Yoda and Vader is dumb anyway'.

Star wars has neat ideas like laserswordfights, spaceship battles, the force, etc and it made all those things look good (visually, I mean) but the actual story has always been a load of poorly strung together gibberish with plotholes everywhere.

 

[Erttheking]

snip

Yeah, it's late, so I'm not gonna go through all that for a second time, so let me just reiterate. Luke didn't outlast Biggs because he was better than him. He outlasted him because Biggs was doing his freaking job in trying to keep the Ties off of Luke. Skill had nothing to do with it, nor did talent, nor did the Force. Heck, the fact that Wedge survived came down to Sheer luck as well. Biggs just wasn't as lucky.

When I said that Luke lasted longer than Biggs, I don't mean that Biggs got fragged first. I mean that when Vader set his sights on Luke, it took him longer to take down Luke than it did to take down Biggs. Like I said, he wasn't saying "The Force is strong with this one" just to fill an awkward silence.

 

[Dazzle Novak]

snip

Regarding The Force Unleashed game, there's a difference between a canon movie entry in the most wildly-popular movie franchise of all time and some mildly-successful video game released during a time filled to the brim with EU where prequels weren't a distant memory. Never mind the fact plenty of fans did gripe over Starkiller being way overpowered (not counting those who don't give a shit about or know him at all). The Mary Suedom was at least a little offset by retconning Darth Vader as the ultimate Sith badass and buffing every Jedi's stats.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

snip

Yeah, it's late, so I'm not gonna go through all that for a second time, so let me just reiterate. Luke didn't outlast Biggs because he was better than him. He outlasted him because Biggs was doing his freaking job in trying to keep the Ties off of Luke. Skill had nothing to do with it, nor did talent, nor did the Force. Heck, the fact that Wedge survived came down to Sheer luck as well. Biggs just wasn't as lucky.

When I said that Luke lasted longer than Biggs, I don't mean that Biggs got fragged first. I mean that when Vader set his sights on Luke, it took him longer to take down Luke than it did to take down Biggs. Like I said, he wasn't saying "The Force is strong with this one" just to fill an awkward silence.

Still doesn't change the fact that you are grasping at the quarks of straw for your argument here. Even if the force was making Luke hard to hit, it wasn't helping him out that much. Artoo still got nailed, and until Han Solo came in he was about to die anyway.

Meanwhile, Rey flies the second most awkwardly designed ship in the setting like a pro after an awkward takeoff through an Obstacle course that managed to take down at least one smaller and more maneuverable fighter.

You'd honestly have been better off trying to use Anakin's flying skills in Phantom Menace for your argument, except even THAT'S rather weak. He spent a significant part of that with his ship on auto pilot, and even after that he mostly didn't do anything of note until he crashed into the command center, and even THEN his blowing that thing up came about by randomly pushing buttons. (Seriously, look at what he's doing after he crashes in there. He's flipping switches and pushing buttons randomly. He has no idea what does what, he's panicking and trying to get the ship to do SOMETHING cause he's in trouble.)

See, that's the main difference between how the Force helped the main characters in Episodes 1 and 4 when compared to Episode 7. It was SUBTLE! It came off less as an all powerful force helping out and more like dumb luck. (Hence Obi-Wan's "In my experience there's no such thing as luck" line.) Rey's though ISN'T subtle. At all. Even after Finn asked her how she flew like that her answer was something around "I have no idea." The Force is basically giving Rey special treatment compared to Luke and Anakin. (Which is doubly egreigous when compared to Anakin considering he's freaking MADE of Force!)

snip

Regarding The Force Unleashed game, there's a difference between a canon movie entry in the most wildly-popular movie franchise of all time and some mildly-successful video game released during a time filled to the brim with EU where prequels weren't a distant memory. Never mind the fact plenty of fans did gripe over Starkiller being way overpowered (not counting those who don't give a shit about or know him at all). The Mary Suedom was at least a little offset by retconning Darth Vader as the ultimate Sith badass and buffing every Jedi's stats.

Not to mention the Darkside ending has Palpatine taking off the kid gloves and beating Starkiller like he owes him drug money.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Grasping at straws? That's your argument in a nut shell. Especially considering you've neglected to respond to the majority of my last large post and only ever focused on the first point I made there. Yes R2 got nailed but I can't help but notice that that was a shot that let Luke keep going, something that Vader hadn't done with the half a dozen other kills he head racked up that very flight. And the kinda funny thing is that you're arguing that Luke isn't a Stu because Han Solo managed to get the drop on the best pilot in the Empire. So if Luke isn't a Stu, Han sure as hell is. And I love both of those characters, I'm just pointing out how little sense it makes to be ok with them and not with Rey.

I already talked about this. TIE fighters are extremely fast, and in tight spaces that can be a drawback. It doesn't help that they're extremely fragile. A scrape that the Falcon could just shrug off would be fatal to the TIE fighter.

I try not to think about the sheer concentrated bullshit that was that scene. That kid would be dead in five seconds with the way that he was acting. But he's got the true secret power keeping him alive. Plot armor. I'm sorry, the fact that he did all of that "by accident" doesn't remove how eye rolling that scene was, and it was still very Gary Stuish.

....Star Wars. Subtle. Yeah no. Star Wars in many things. Fun, exciting, memorable. But subtle? Yeah no. Maybe you could've made the argument that how the force helped Luke in the Death Star trench run was subtle, but that argument falls apart when Obi-Wan flat out told him to use the force. It's not subtle that the force is helping him when Obi-Wan has to spell it out for him. And no, the force is giving her equal treatment to Luke and lesser treatment to Anakin "I flew a Naboo starfighter and killed a capital ship at the age of eight, single handily saving the Gungans" Skywalker.

And I already addressed that part of the Force Unleashed, if you want to go back and reply to all of those points I made earlier, you'll see it there.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Snip

Grasping at straws? That's your argument in a nut shell. Especially considering you've neglected to respond to the majority of my last large post and only ever focused on the first point I made there. Yes R2 got nailed but I can't help but notice that that was a shot that let Luke keep going, something that Vader hadn't done with the half a dozen other kills he head racked up that very flight. And the kinda funny thing is that you're arguing that Luke isn't a Stu because Han Solo managed to get the drop on the best pilot in the Empire. So if Luke isn't a Stu, Han sure as hell is. And I love both of those characters, I'm just pointing out how little sense it makes to be ok with them and not with Rey.

I already talked about this. TIE fighters are extremely fast, and in tight spaces that can be a drawback. It doesn't help that they're extremely fragile. A scrape that the Falcon could just shrug off would be fatal to the TIE fighter.

I try not to think about the sheer concentrated bullshit that was that scene. That kid would be dead in five seconds with the way that he was acting. But he's got the true secret power keeping him alive. Plot armor. I'm sorry, the fact that he did all of that "by accident" doesn't remove how eye rolling that scene was, and it was still very Gary Stuish.

....Star Wars. Subtle. Yeah no. Star Wars in many things. Fun, exciting, memorable. But subtle? Yeah no. Maybe you could've made the argument that how the force helped Luke in the Death Star trench run was subtle, but that argument falls apart when Obi-Wan flat out told him to use the force. It's not subtle that the force is helping him when Obi-Wan has to spell it out for him. And no, the force is giving her equal treatment to Luke and lesser treatment to Anakin "I flew a Naboo starfighter and killed a capital ship at the age of eight, single handily saving the Gungans" Skywalker.

And I already addressed that part of the Force Unleashed, if you want to go back and reply to all of those points I made earlier, you'll see it there.

Obi-Wan was telling him to use the force for the shot. Not to dodge Vader. Again, Episode 4. Have you actually seen it, or did the person who first told you Luke was a Sue describe it to you? For crying out loud, he only starts talking when Luke brings up the targeting computer. Either way, Ben's still coaching him through it while Rey just does it, so it's STILL not the evidence you want it to be.

As an aside, if something looks like it could be described as sheer dumb luck, that kind of dampens the Sue accusations a fair bit. See, the universe bending over backwards for the character is only part of that. A Sue also tends to show off skills that by all rights they shouldn't have. Anakin hitting the right buttons is pushing it, but still feasable. With how he was hitting everything, SOMETHING was bound to happen. Rey on the other hand flew a big honking and awkwardly designed ship that she was never mentioned having flown before and only modified and maintained (Seriously, go to a Nascar event and ask the pit crew how well you think they'd drive the cars.) that almost requires a co-pilot alone in the pilot's seat through tight corridors and hard banks leading up to shutting off her engines in mid flight so Finn could take a shot.

Anakin got lucky, Rey was pretty much a player character in a game who's controls got taken over by a more silled player for a bit.

And when compared to Rey? Yeah. Luke and Anakin are practically Ninja like in how they used the Force.


(As an aside, if you REALLY want to know what makes a character a Sue due to the Universe bending over backwards for them, check out Sword of Truth: Naked Empire. Added bonus in that said character is MALE too!)

As an aside, no. Han may be more Stuish than Luke, but until that bit with the Hyperspace landing in Episode 7 he manages to saty out of it for the most part by having, oh what DO they call it again? Oh yeah! CHARACTER FLAWS AND FAILINGS! In episode 4 he's a greedy merc who has to be bribed into saving Leia, and no one really likes him that much and only keep him around because he's a great pilot and the Falcon's a fast ship. Episode 5 has him captured and frozen after his faith in Lando proves to be mostly misplaced, Episode 6 has HIM in a near damsel position, and is nearly killed on Endor before Leia pulls of a move that Han is stunned to near silence over.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Except that wasn't subtle either. Vader hammered it into our heads that "The Force was strong with this one". This movie was never subtle. I mean for fuck's sake. The Force is divided into light and dark. How unsubtle is that as to which one is the good one? The Force is space magic crossed with Jesus. Subtle it ain't.

No, it is not feasible. At all. That's like saying I could get into a Blackhawk helicopter and it would be feasible to take off. The results would be similar. A smoldering pile of wreckage When he crashed into the hanger of the droid ship, he should've been dead. Pushing random buttons in a flying vehicle is a good way to get yourself killed For some reason you think a ten year old blowing up an entire army is more acceptable that Rey out flying two fighters, because he did the first by accident. Really? Well Rey did it by accident. Is that an acceptable explanation?

Lucky is not the word I would use. Lucky is when you find a twenty dollar bill on the sidewalk. What Anakin did was skull fuck reality. Anakin built a robot at the age of ten, beat a veteran in a pod race with a sabotaged pod, and then saved an entire day and an army. And Rey is the one you call a sue.

Yeah not really. Espically considering Anakin was named as the fucking chosen one with a power leve- midichlorian count of over 9000. How is that subtle again? Right, it isn't.

I CAN TYPE IN ALL CAPS TOO! IT DOESN'T MAKE YOUR POINT STRONGER! Yeah I mean Rey has no character flaws. I mean it's not like she ran away because she panicked and got captured-oh wait. I mean it's not like she didn't easily explain something to Finn instead of insisting she just hand him a thing that nearly got them killed-oh wait. And I've said it before and I'll say it again. Rey running off set off a chain of advents that got Han Solo killed. So you saying that she doesn't have flaws? Incorrect. Plus there's that whole obsessively waiting on Jakku thing. Or does wasting the majority of your life squatting on a desert planet of your own free will not count as a flaw?

OH! And you STILL haven't replied to my earlier points in this post.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.936976-After-getting-and-watching-Force-Awakens-again?page=6#23609531

Are you going to ever get around to that?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Meanwhile, Rey flies the second most awkwardly designed ship in the setting like a pro after an awkward takeoff through an Obstacle course that managed to take down at least one smaller and more maneuverable fighter.

Nitpicking, I know, but zero TIE FO's crashed via interacting with the environment due to Rey's piloting. Both were destroyed via laserfire from Finn. Using an antiquated quad cannon that probably hadn't been properly serviced since before he was born, if ever.

I like how you keep amping up Rey's desperate and lucky piloting though. I'd like to see you describe Empire's asteroid belt scene, where a clunky freighter manages to out fly some four smaller and more maneuverable fighters until said TIE fighters manage to introduce themselves to space debris. Especially considering the pilot, Han Solo, has no more ability in the Force than I do.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

**SNIP**

One can definitely argue that the Force gave Luke enough of an edge to evade Vader and get Vader to narrow his focus on the "strange Force-strong pilot" for the timing of Han's return to surprise an otherwise highly trained and skilled Force-user. Otherwise, its arguable had Vader not had such trouble lining up his shot and had to concentrate, well Luke would be space dust.
So there's a neat tie-up for your side (which makes a lot of sense).

I like how you keep amping up Rey's desperate and lucky piloting though. I'd like to see you describe Empire's asteroid belt scene, where a clunky freighter manages to out fly some four smaller and more maneuverable fighters until said TIE fighters manage to introduce themselves to space debris. Especially considering the pilot, Han Solo, has no more ability in the Force than I do.

It could also be argued that the Falcon's constant improvements by Han and Chewie greatly increased the capabilities of the old ship, and the "hunk of junk"/"garbage" look to it is partially camouflage that makes most anyone encountering it underestimate its abilities. It can also be argued the modifications make piloting said ship fairly easy. I'd like to think that Han and Chewie did a lot to the Falcon, even before they lost it, that would make it as efficient and less complicated to fly, especially because the more complicated it was the more likely it would fail at some point (which it's already prone to doing).