Yeah, but Han only went there in the first place because Finn said that he could bring the shields down. Finn was the one who brought the idea up in the first place, because he wanted to save Rey. Han went there under the (False) assumption that Finn knew the base, a lie Finn told him to save Rey and a lie he would not have told if she wasn't in danger.BloatedGuppy said:
After getting and watching Force Awakens again...
- Thread starter Paragon Fury
- Start date
Recommended Videos
So Finn's pathological insincerity got Han killed. Boy you're really throwing poor Finn under the bus here =Derttheking said:
Yeah basically Han adopted two kids and they got him killed.BloatedGuppy said:
Nice going you two.
Adopted two kids and together with his biological kid, they got him killed.erttheking said:
The lesson here is never have kids.
That's a nice alternative interpretation of Episode 7 right there.erttheking said:
Star Wars Episode 7 - The Force Awakens
Three children, jealous of their father's success and legendary star ship, conspire to murder him for the inheritance. The plan runs afoul when one sibling turns against the others to get all the spoils for himself.
Luke also had people speaking up for him in favor of his piloting abilities, specifically Biggs who WAS the Rebellion's best pilot at the time, and the Rebellion had a desperate need for manpower. It was basically the scene in Indipendence Day where the crop duster pilot got recruited to fight the aliens.erttheking said:
Not to mention, AGAIN FOR THE UMPTEENTH FREAKING TIME, Luke was still nearly shot down on numerous occasions. Once by a TIE Fighter, and again by Vader. So Luke could dogfight, but he wasn't particularly good at it in his first going. The main thing he needed to do was hit a 2 meter wide, stationary target which he stated he could do.
Still doesn't change the fact that a person who was at most barely out of their toddler years AND was mind wiped was pulling off a move that Luke couldn't do till Episode 6.
Seriously, even KOTOR had higher standards than that, and Revan was NO youngling trainee.
Your point?
Still doesn't change the fact that teaching a bunch of kids how to manipulate the weak minded like that would be an INCREDIBLY stupid thing to do. I gave you telekinesis but manipulating another being's mind is another matter entirely. (Hammering in the ethics ALONE would take awhile. Most Jedi actually didn't like using this unless absolutley necessary. And yes, I remember the Deathsticks scene, hence why I said MOST)
Younglings and trainees were provided training sabers that could only stun at most, or things like wooden training swords. A youngling has to MAKE their own lightsaber as part of their ascension to higher ranks. So no, they never had swords that could hack off limbs.
Honestly, I wouldn't call kicking Ren's ass at his best an impressive feat. Still doesn't change the fact that she got a second wind by believing in herself REALLY hard. Who knew all you needed to be a great Jedi would be having Shia's "Just DO IT" speech going on repeat?
(Actually, does anyone with good editing skills wanna put that speech into the scene where Rey got her second wind? It'd probably be hilarious.)
If Finn hadn't decided to go, Han would've most likely ended up going with just Chewie anyway. The Starkiller had defenses that needed to go down before it could be destroyed. The Resistance knew that, it was the primary reason he went to the planet to begin with. Han was dead one way or another.
Bullcrap she needed help. A "strong, independent" woman like her? She'd gotten out by mindtricking a Stormtrooper and was wandering all over the damn place without an alarm being raised. She would've gotten out eventually.
Dude, Finn was practically proposing to her at one point, and all the ire in that relationship came from her side of things. Yes, Han may have been apprehensive at first, but it wasn't long before he was giving her blaster lessons and offering her a job on the Falcon.
I'll say this much about TFA, its a great movie. Its not perfect, and there's a lot of things that should have been covered better by the narrative that aren't pieces of the story to be told at a later date in the films. But I think a lot of the errors made in narrative were on the side of caution because of the heavy-handed exposition Lucas bogged the prequels down with.
Overall it was a good movie and I think if we look back at the trilogy once its said and done most of the arguments against Rey will seem silly when compared to the overall evidence.
Overall it was a good movie and I think if we look back at the trilogy once its said and done most of the arguments against Rey will seem silly when compared to the overall evidence.
At the rate it's going, I liked the prequels better. Say what you will about Lucas' writing, but at least he actually built up his universe. New aliens, new droids, new weapons, new worlds, and a look at what the galaxy was like before the Empire. Sure the writing wasn't stellar, but at least he was freaking TRYING to keep this stuff fresh.Imperioratorex Caprae said:
Episode 7 was pretty much Episode 4 with a new paint job, and worse characters. (Exceptions being the little ball droid and Finn.) It plays it all too safe, and suffers for it. Not to mention, while Lucas' exposition WAS heavy handed, at least I didn't sit in the freaking theater going "Wait, what's going on? Why are these guys doing this? Who is that?"
I'll take heavy exposition, over bare bones exposition, especially when the situation calls for it.
Edit: Actually, your comment on exposition is doubly funny. With all the questions still hanging around everything, Episode 8 is almost guarnteed to be exposition heavy as all hell by NECESSITY!
And you really think the arguments against Rey are gonna be silly, when she already makes Luke and Anakin from their first outings look like chumps while her only real opposition could be renamed Darth Linkin Park?
In the immortal words of the Mad God, "OPTIMISM! I love it! Even at the end you make me laugh! I'm lying. That wasn't funny at all."
Luke never needed the other movies to flesh him out as a character, and even Anakin was pretty well established in Episode 1. If Rey needs multiple movies for us to figure out what her deal is, the writers have screwed up more than George himself ever did. (Though in this case, we can safely lay the blame of this one firmly at that dipshit Abrams feet due to his fetish for that damn mystery box.)
Didn't do. Luke never attempts the trick until episode 6, he never had a reason to. You have absolutely no reason from the films to supposed it is a particularly difficult trick.Metalix Knightmare said:
The trick is explicitly stated to be most effective and easiest to pull of against the exceptionally weak willed, such as a person that has been brainwashed since birth.
Yoda. Yoda knew that, and explicitly states so to Luke when he fails to lift the X-Wing. Like it or not, that is canon.
Neither did I, or anyone else I know. While the film definitely suffered a mild exposition gap, there were hardly leaps of extraordinary intuition required.Metalix Knightmare said:
So then why didn't Luke try it when he was in the Death Star and was trying to fake a prisinor transfer? He had more traing that Rey at that point, AND he knew the mind trick was a thing.ThatOtherGirl said:
So the point behind me even bringing up that scene has been completley missed. Joy.
Yoda knew that, Luke couldn't believe it until he saw it with his own eyes, and Rey had been using the force for all of a couple hours and didn't even know it was even a thing till the day before.
It's canon, but Rey has no reason to think it could help like that. Not to mention the only time that second wind was seen in use was when Luke almmost gave into his anger in Ep6.
Well way to go then. I left the theater wondering why those 5 planets that got blown up were supposed to be of any importance, and why the hell the ENTIRE Republic Fleet was stationed around them as well as how they could fit enough ships to police a significant chunk of the galaxy without completely blotting out the skies.BloatedGuppy said:
I really find that argument to be reductivist at best. There are parallels to Ep.IV, and callbacks, but its not a carbon copy. The hero's journey monomyth follows pretty much the same plot, we all know this already and know that the Star Wars story is based on it. There's a lot in TFA that looks similar to ANH but its also different and those differences are subtle, and kind of subverting the previous movie in a way. The First Order looks like the Empire, until you dig down and realize they're kids compared to the Empire of EpIV. Name one character in who's in the First Order that looks like they're over 40, aside from Snoke who's an alien and has no comparable character. Contrasted with the entire Death Star military council and Grand Moff Tarkin, all of whom are more than likely past 45 or older. We've got similar protagonists, yes but thats basically the monomyth at play. The Starkiller base is there, and yes its a bigger version than the Death Star. My argument is that it fits within the idea that the First Order are a bunch of kids playing wannabe Empire and end up overcompensating. They have the look but they're not quite the Empire.Metalix Knightmare said:
And there's Jakku, yeah the desert world. Its kinda iconic and part of the myth of Star Wars, it would almost feel out of place if one didn't end up on a desert planet at some point during the story. Lucas revisited Tattooine in the prequels, the new movies just decided not to use Tattooine as the basis for Rey.
Rey also is nowhere near a parallel to Luke. She spends most of the movie actively trying to not get involved in this stuff, only doing so because she ends up having little choice in that regard. Up until her capture, all she wanted was to get away from all this and back to her crappy life on Jakku, not because she wants to be there but rather because she wants to be somewhere that her parents (assumption) can find her. She ends up giving in and realizing she is part of the greater universe and there's no going back. Contrasted to Luke, well Luke was a farmboy who couldn't wait to get off his planet and become part of the larger universe.
If one can't see the differences in the movie, despite the parallels, then one isn't taking in the whole picture. I would go on but I've got other things to do. I'm not saying you have to like the movie, but please do make a better argument than a reductive take on how all hero's journey's follow the same path.
Hence why I used the words "appear to be" as in, I don't think everyone saying it is sexist, but it doesn't do anything to make me think they AREN'T, either. The "Mary Sue" label used in this context appears sexist when taking the slew of hyper-competent male characters found in film that are just considered "badass." There's honest-to-goodness criticisms to be had with Rey's character that I don't have issue with (unless they aren't factually correct), but the term "Mary Sue" is hugely subjective and intrinsically dismissive of a female protagonist in a series that so far has featured only male protagonists. It's a stupid term that shouldn't be used outside of bad fan-fiction just for how contentious it is.elvor0 said:
If people said something like "there was clear 'positive discrimination' by having the first female protagonist of Star Wars be good at everything," I might not totally agree with that either, but I'd at least see where people were coming from. But saying "she's a mary sue" says nothing beyond "she's a girl who succeeded and I don't like that."
It's not about the frigging Hero's journey, it's about how most of the movie is almost a reboot of episode 4!Imperioratorex Caprae said:
Here, let's see if you can tell me which is which. I'm gonna list off some scenes, and you tell me if they're from Episode's 4 or 7.
There's an evil empire that is doing bad stuff, fighting against a rebellion. (Though this one is so common in films it's hard to hold it against the movie.)
The Empire's primary enforcer is an intimidating dude dressed in black and wearing a mask that alters their voice.
A down on their luck peasant on a desert planet discovers a droid with plans the rebellion desperately needs.
The hero and their friends escape from the empire attacking the desert planet on the Millennium Falcon.
The empire has a world destroying super-weapon and first use it on planets that aren't a threat to it.
The hero receives a lightsaber used by Anakin Skywalker.
The heroes go to a cantina to work out their next move.
The heroes have to run around the superweapon to find one of their own.
The hero's mentor dies due at the hands of the masked man in black. (Though this sort of thing is so common that, again, it's not really fair to knock EP7 for it. Plus, after EP1 it's kinda tradition to kill off the mentor figures in the first part of a trilogy.)
The heroes blow up the superweapon thanks to an X-Wing bombing run.
Pretty much ALL of the big scenes in this movie were almost word for word remakes of Episode 4's along with some bits from 5 and 6 (The talking orange for Yoda, Rey possibly giving into the dark side to fight Ren.), only a bit worse. The bombing run is almost relegated to a side thing which takes away most of it's impact, the hero that was captured almost escapes on their own, the masked man in black is a complete choad, and WHAT THE FUCK IS THE ORANGE YODA DOING WITH ANAKIN'S LIGHTSABER AND WHY IS IT SUDDENLY CAUSING HALLUCINATIONS!?
Most of those hyper competant male characters are also in entirely different genres of films (Generally stupid action movies where the main focus is blow stuff up real good.), and didn't have beloved past characters to be compared to.Kolby Jack said:
Seriously dude, if you're comparing Star Wars to Hardcore Henry you're doing BOTH films a MASSIVE disservice.
Because it didn't occur to him to use it? Luke never even tries to use the force expect on Obi-wan's explicit prompting in the first movie. Specifically because he believes it wont work.Metalix Knightmare said:
You asked how it was relevant. That is how it is relevant.
And can you explain then exactly what your point is in explicit terms? Because all I can tell is that you don't think she should be able to do the mind trick for dubious reasons despite mitigating factors.
Except that isn't true at all. In the movie it is established that there are legends told about Luke Skywalker and Han Solo and all that. She already knew about this unbelievable thing called the force and the things that Luke did with it, and she had a living legend tell her that all those stories she has heard are true. She also witnessed Kylo Ren using the force first hand, and she saw that he was nothing special. Under the mask he is just a confused immature boy. If someone like that can do amazing things with the force, why not her? Especially since she has already knows she has some strong connection to the force.
Rey wasn't. She has based her entire life on the idea that someday someone wonderful is going to drop out of the sky and take her away to a beautiful land far away where all her troubles will be no more. She clearly isn't the type to doubt, it is fully within her character to throw a huge amount of trust and belief behind something like the force, especially when she has seen it do very powerful things.
And Luke had zero reason to believe he could use force telekinesis in empire, but it didn't stop him using it to get the lightsaber in episode V. Again, sudden development of previously unknown force abilities in moments of need is canon.
Plus, she did have reason to believe it could help her like that. First, she had seen Ren fighting! She knows the force can grant incredible combat abilities. But even if she hadn't, as was previously established she grew up hearing about the legends of Luke Skywalker. Do you really think those legends didn't include incredible combat ability?
First Order has not been said to be an Empire. Actually the idea of the First Order is that they're so small a group that the New Republic ignores them leading to the formation of the Resistance. But yes they're evil. Fighting against the Rebellion? Who's rebelling against them? They're not in power. They actually are the Rebellion of this movie, going against the New Republic. Parallel but not same.Metalix Knightmare said:
Vader had to wear his mask and suit because it kept him alive. Ren is wearing the Mask and black getup because he desperately is trying to be grandpa. See my whole bit about the First Order being kids cosplaying as the Empire but not quite getting why they're failing at it.
Parallel but not equal. Luke had family, Rey has nothing and is actively trying not to get involved. Also not the Rebellion, First Order are the rebels in this movie.
Falcon is quintessential to Star Wars, and I'd hardly consider Finn/Rey friends. In fact Finn is actively lying to Rey from the get-go and terrified of being caught, which he ends up dragging her in his wake (even though she's the one who saves his ass). Also no mentor on the planet, no "Empire" killing Rey's "parents." The droid thing is just the macguffin, and if we're going to complain about those, we might was well ditch the whole idea of how to build a story.
Arguably the First Order has a reason (however fucked up it is) to destroy the Hosnian system planets. They house a government the First Order feels is decadent and driving the galaxy down with inaction and indecision. Alderaan just simply was suspected of Rebel involvement and Tarkin was an asshole. However skewed the viewpoint of the First Order is, they fully believe the New Republic was a threat to them.
Quintessential to the hero's journey, the legendary weapon held by a legendary warrior.
Arguably the biggest trope in fantasy, the inn/bar/cantina where adventures start, only this trope is subverted by being a middle ground.
Not quite the same, no one used the Force to blow it up this time... =P
Maz Kanata wasn't really a Yoda analog, she didn't really do much except facilitate Rey's retreat from her destiny. And most of your points here are, despite the petulant wording, anathema to your points. The movie is parallel but its not word for word remakes of EPIV. It is however callbacks to the original trilogy in many respects. I can understand not liking that idea, but its more of an homage to the original trilogy with enough subversions of those iconic scenes to be parallel but not exact copies.
Also it wasn't hallucinations, its the damn Force.
I... I never mentioned Hardcore Henry. I haven't even seen it. I hear it's cool, though.Metalix Knightmare said:
Also yeah, stupid action movies, as opposed to Star Wars which is a stupid sci-fi movie.
Wait wait wait wait. Biggs was the Rebellion's best pilot? Since when? And Luke lasted longer against Vader than the Rebellion's best pilot? That's not Gary Stuish at all?Metalix Knightmare said:
I seem to recall Rey spending the entire chase nearly getting downed with TIE fighters right on her six. He stated he could hit a target that another pilot stated was impossible "Even for a computer" and Luke said he could do it because bullshit about Wamp Rats. I fail to see how that's not Stuish.
Less couldn't do and more never bothered to try. The Jedi Mind Trick is clearly less about the skill of the user and more about the mental state of the person as the receiving end, which is why Jedi Grand Masters like Qui-Gon can't even use it on someone like Watto and Luke can't use it on Jabba.
The soldiers of the first order are very vulnerable to brainwashing is my point and have very little in the way of free will. It makes them prime candidates for mind tricks.
Believing in yourself really hard? Welcome to Star Wars. Luke did the same shit in A New Hope when he used the force to guide torpedoes into the exhaust port because Obi-Wan told him to use the force.
Except Finn was the one who introduced the idea in the first place. Han was only willing to go when he thought that Finn had a plan on what to do, and he was really pissed when he found out that that wasn't the case. If Finn hadn't brought it up, Han would've had no way of knowing where to go on a planet sized station. He could've easily have ended up on the wrong side of the base.
What's with the strong independent woman in quotations? Wandering around without raising an alarm, happened quite often in the first movie. And they were dragging a Wookie around. Mainly because guards tend to be on low alert when guarding an impregnable fortress, even more so when Starkiller base specifically had shields up to keep people out. And how was she supposed to get out? Fly a TIE fighter that she doesn't know how to operate? Avoiding the fighters that would've certainly been coming after her, like Finn and Poe in the beginning? Just because you don't like her doesn't mean you get to make things up about her.
So he warmed up to her? I can think of a certain blonde desert dwelling Skywalker who can claim the same. Considering that was before Han mellowed out.
Christ, Starkiller from the Force Unleashed doesn't get this many accusations of being a Sue. And he beat Vader and the Emperor.
But why ANAKIN'S lightsaber!? Why not Luke's!? You know, the lightsaber that DIDN'T fall down into cloud city's namesake clouds!? And while the Force does grant visions, visons coming from lightsabers is so far out of left field that the player out there is confused! They've NEVER done that before!
Also, we don't know if Poe has the force yet. Bet ya he will. The only thing protectin him from the Sue accusations was how long he was in the movie, and I doubt that'll hold by the time others come out.
Not to mention, while wise old mentors ARE a dime a dozen in the Hero's journy, how many of them are oddly colored tiny aliens? The only major difference between Yoda and the orange is that Yoda was green and spoke oddly.
And can you explain then exactly what your point is in explicit terms? Because all I can tell is that you don't think she should be able to do the mind trick for dubious reasons despite mitigating factors.
Rey wasn't. She has based her entire life on the idea that someday someone wonderful is going to drop out of the sky and take her away to a beautiful land far away where all her troubles will be no more. She clearly isn't the type to doubt, it is fully within her character to throw a huge amount of trust and belief behind something like the force, especially when she has seen it do very powerful things.
Plus, she did have reason to believe it could help her like that. First, she had seen Ren fighting! She knows the force can grant incredible combat abilities. But even if she hadn't, as was previously established she grew up hearing about the legends of Luke Skywalker. Do you really think those legends didn't include incredible combat ability?[/quote]
You think trying to get the Princess Leia quietly and without fuss isn't a reason to try the mind trick? As for why I don't think the Mind Trick should've worked for Rey it's purely because she has no idea what the force can do, nor how to do it. Every other unconcious usage of it till this movie was better timing, better reflexes, and better jumping in times of duress. She knows you can probe minds, but that's about it. Yes there are legends, but I rather doubt legends are gonna go into great deatail on how he did it beyond "he used da force to do it."
As for Luke and telekinesis, How much time passed between episodes 4 and 5? A few months to a year or two? You really think Luke is gonna be sitting on his ass doing nothing with the force in all that time? More likely than not he trained and worked it out on his own, or possibly with Obi-Wan's ghost guiding him still.
Also, figuring out how to empower yourself with the force by watching Ren fight? The most noticible thing he openly showed there was force push. Everything else was straight up combat. Even that striking his wond thing could be written off as trying to keep himself from passing out.
Also, we don't know if Poe has the force yet. Bet ya he will. The only thing protectin him from the Sue accusations was how long he was in the movie, and I doubt that'll hold by the time others come out.
Not to mention, while wise old mentors ARE a dime a dozen in the Hero's journy, how many of them are oddly colored tiny aliens? The only major difference between Yoda and the orange is that Yoda was green and spoke oddly.
Because it didn't occur to him to use it? Luke never even tries to use the force expect on Obi-wan's explicit prompting in the first movie. Specifically because he believes it wont work.ThatOtherGirl said:
You asked how it was relevant. That is how it is relevant.
And can you explain then exactly what your point is in explicit terms? Because all I can tell is that you don't think she should be able to do the mind trick for dubious reasons despite mitigating factors.
Except that isn't true at all. In the movie it is established that there are legends told about Luke Skywalker and Han Solo and all that. She already knew about this unbelievable thing called the force and the things that Luke did with it, and she had a living legend tell her that all those stories she has heard are true. She also witnessed Kylo Ren using the force first hand, and she saw that he was nothing special. Under the mask he is just a confused immature boy. If someone like that can do amazing things with the force, why not her? Especially since she has already knows she has some strong connection to the force.
Rey wasn't. She has based her entire life on the idea that someday someone wonderful is going to drop out of the sky and take her away to a beautiful land far away where all her troubles will be no more. She clearly isn't the type to doubt, it is fully within her character to throw a huge amount of trust and belief behind something like the force, especially when she has seen it do very powerful things.
And Luke had zero reason to believe he could use force telekinesis in empire, but it didn't stop him using it to get the lightsaber in episode V. Again, sudden development of previously unknown force abilities in moments of need is canon.
Plus, she did have reason to believe it could help her like that. First, she had seen Ren fighting! She knows the force can grant incredible combat abilities. But even if she hadn't, as was previously established she grew up hearing about the legends of Luke Skywalker. Do you really think those legends didn't include incredible combat ability?[/quote]
You think trying to get the Princess Leia quietly and without fuss isn't a reason to try the mind trick? As for why I don't think the Mind Trick should've worked for Rey it's purely because she has no idea what the force can do, nor how to do it. Every other unconcious usage of it till this movie was better timing, better reflexes, and better jumping in times of duress. She knows you can probe minds, but that's about it. Yes there are legends, but I rather doubt legends are gonna go into great deatail on how he did it beyond "he used da force to do it."
As for Luke and telekinesis, How much time passed between episodes 4 and 5? A few months to a year or two? You really think Luke is gonna be sitting on his ass doing nothing with the force in all that time? More likely than not he trained and worked it out on his own, or possibly with Obi-Wan's ghost guiding him still.
Also, figuring out how to empower yourself with the force by watching Ren fight? The most noticible thing he openly showed there was force push. Everything else was straight up combat. Even that striking his wond thing could be written off as trying to keep himself from passing out.
