Alan Moore on Superhero comics

[Flatfrog]

An interesting interview with the always entertainingly grumpy Alan Moore here

Lots of good stuff but I was intrigued by this quote in particular

I think it's a rather alarming sign if we've got audiences of adults going to see the Avengers movie and delighting in concepts and characters meant to entertain the 12-year-old boys of the 1950s.

It's not an entirely original point but I think it's rather well made. Is it a bad thing that today's mainstream adults are flocking to see material that was aimed at yesterday's children?

MovieBob is keen on saying that geek culture has 'won' by taking over the mainstream, but is it geek culture that has won, or is it childishness? And is it a bad thing if it is?

I'm not sure of my opinion (I love Avengers as much as the next person but I'm perfectly able to enjoy more 'grown-up' fare). It's certainly intriguing how acceptable it has become for adults to admit they love Harry Potter, Twilight or The Hunger Games, all franchises specifically written for teens.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

I think it's only really a problem if that kind of stuff is the only thing you enjoy as an adult.

Conversely, I find that people that only like high-brow, serious entertainment for serious adults often tend to be seriously dull people.

I'd say a certain level of childlike wonder is a good thing in an adult, if only to help you unwind. It's all in the balance.

 

[JoJo]

I feel intense pity for any adult who has given up childish pastimes simply because society tells them they're too old for it. Enjoy what you enjoy, and there's no reason why interest in complex adult works can't live peacefully alongside a love of simpler ones.

 

[Scarim Coral]

Honestly I find that quote to be invalid/ dismissive since why is wrong with that (in saying so who hold Alan Moore opinion to be high regard)? I mean I find that whole being an adult but want to be a kid to go back to simpler time to be somewhat true.

 

[Asita]

Personally, I think the sentiment expressed is Grade A idiocy. This is especially true when said by someone in the business of producing entertainment. You want a broader audience. If you appeal to something outside of your target demographic, then you're doing something very right. If you can't, then you're doing something very wrong. I think Walt Disney said it best: "You're dead if you aim only for kids. Adults are only kids grown up, anyway."

 

[Lizardon]

How does that saying go? You don't stop having fun because you've grown old, you grow old when you stop having fun. And I think Mr Moore stopped having fun a long time ago.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I feel intense pity for any adult who has given up childish pastimes simply because society tells them they're too old for it. Enjoy what you enjoy, and there's no reason why interest in complex adult works can't live peacefully alongside a love of simpler ones.

Hear, hear!

The only reason we have fantastic childhood movies and stories is exactly because they were made by adults who could still enjoy childish things.

What Moore said here is the type of smug insult you'd receive in high school for liking Disney.

 

[Ranorak]

And I think it's sad that an old bitter man who use to make said characters for the 12 year olds from the 1950's can't even enjoy a fun, entertaining movie once in a while, without coming of like a depressed old man at the end of his rope shouting things like "You damn kids!".

 

[DementedSheep]

I'm not surprise this is coming from Alan Moore. I like some of his work but he comes across as bitter a lot of the time. What wrong with liking something simple and fun now and again? Life is complicated and serious but your entertainment doesn't need to be. I'm 21 and I can still enjoy animated kids movies. Just because it aimed at primary at kids or not tackling high brow concepts doesn't mean it is low quality.

You can easily enjoy and experience both types of entertainment which often seem to be forgotten by people spouting this sort of shit.

 

[TheIceQueen]

Well, Disney movies aren't just popular with little kids and there's nothing wrong with that. So, there's nothing wrong with adults liking superhero movies.

My favorite movies, personally, are usually ones primarily aimed at children, but with enough heart, soul, and brains to grab adults like myself as well. Admittedly, I am a young adult, but still.

This is just very silly of you to say, Alan Moore.

 

[Plinglebob]

I've spoilered the full paragraph the quote in the OC was taken from as it seems a lot of people here are taking out of context.

When I mention that Geoff Johns has done a whole series of Green Lantern based on his story "Tygers", he gets tetchy. "Now, see," he says, "I haven't read any superhero comics since I finished with Watchmen. I hate superheroes. I think they're abominations. They don't mean what they used to mean. They were originally in the hands of writers who would actively expand the imagination of their nine- to 13-year-old audience. That was completely what they were meant to do and they were doing it excellently. These days, superhero comics think the audience is certainly not nine to 13, it's nothing to do with them. It's an audience largely of 30-, 40-, 50-, 60-year old men, usually men. Someone came up with the term graphic novel. These readers latched on to it; they were simply interested in a way that could validate their continued love of Green Lantern or Spider-Man without appearing in some way emotionally subnormal. This is a significant rump of the superhero-addicted, mainstream-addicted audience. I don't think the superhero stands for anything good. I think it's a rather alarming sign if we've got audiences of adults going to see the Avengers movie and delighting in concepts and characters meant to entertain the 12-year-old boys of the 1950s.

Reading the full article, the quote given by the OC isn't Alan saying adults reading superhero comics is wrong (ok, he is, but its more then that), but that its wrong the primary audience is no longer 12 years old. Before the 80s, children were the primary audience for comics with any adult readers being a periphery demographic. Now comics and related items are aimed at adults with children seeming to be a bonus audience and looking at the state of things recently its hard to argue. In comics we have adult orientated stories such as Marvels Civil War storyline and DC rebooting the universe again to satisfy the adult fans need for continuity. In films we have Midlife Crisis Man, (sorry, Iron Man), The Grim Knight and a Superman film that is both grey and boring. Compare Man of Steel, with its sights on adults, and the original Superman film (aimed at everyone) and its obvious they don't give a shit about kids anymore.

Edit: At least we know what Bob will be talking about Tuesday.
Edit 2: I've unspoilered the paragraph in question as looking at peoples posts they're either not reading the article or missing the point entirely.

 

[MrGonzales]

Did anyone else here actually read the article? He isn't mad at people for liking kids stuff, he's mad at them for taking concepts that are joyous for children and warping them so that they are more suitable for adults. What he says about superheroes is:

"They don't mean what they used to mean. They were originally in the hands of writers who would actively expand the imagination of their nine- to 13-year-old audience. That was completely what they were meant to do and they were doing it excellently. These days, superhero comics think the audience is certainly not nine to 13, it's nothing to do with them. It's an audience largely of 30-, 40-, 50-, 60-year old men, usually men."

I mean, he's not wrong. A while back Dan Didio explicitely said that DC was writing stories for 40 year olds, not children. Comics were made for children way back when and did not have any delusions of being anything but children's stories (except for the propaganda thing, but that's a different issue), but now just about every comic is trying so hard to be gritty adult fair, with almost all of them failing hilariously. I would like comics much more if they really were child-like fun. If Geoff Johns wants to make a mature comic book story, why does he have to use a man wearing green and black tights with an unconvincing mask to do it?

 

[TekMoney]

Did anyone else here actually read the article? He isn't mad at people for liking kids stuff, he's mad at them for taking concepts that are joyous for children and warping them so that they are more suitable for adults.

Which is a pretty weird complaint coming from the guy who wrote The Killing Joke.

 

[FalloutJack]

Oh, be quiet, Alan. If people want to enjoy themselves, LET THEM.

 

[Fox12]

I don't think Moore has anything against super heroes per se, I think he hates what superheroes have effectively become. He seems to hate how utterly shallow most super hero films are, and quite frankly, he's right. He also seems to hate the fact that most comics are just never ending marketing machines. There's no beginning, middle or end. It's just a never ending machine. At that point it's not an art, it's a product. This ruins the narrative process.

 

[Plinglebob]

Did anyone else here actually read the article? He isn't mad at people for liking kids stuff, he's mad at them for taking concepts that are joyous for children and warping them so that they are more suitable for adults.

Which is a pretty weird complaint coming from the guy who wrote The Killing Joke.

He also wrote Watchmen which helped start the shift, but there's a difference between doing a one-off re-imagining of a character/situation and thinking a whole entertainment type should change. In a similar way, I doubt the Bronies that create rule 34 level fan art would think the series would be better if made for adults with an R rating.

 

[tzimize]

An interesting interview with the always entertainingly grumpy Alan Moore here

Lots of good stuff but I was intrigued by this quote in particular

I think it's a rather alarming sign if we've got audiences of adults going to see the Avengers movie and delighting in concepts and characters meant to entertain the 12-year-old boys of the 1950s.

It's not an entirely original point but I think it's rather well made. Is it a bad thing that today's mainstream adults are flocking to see material that was aimed at yesterday's children?

MovieBob is keen on saying that geek culture has 'won' by taking over the mainstream, but is it geek culture that has won, or is it childishness? And is it a bad thing if it is?

I'm not sure of my opinion (I love Avengers as much as the next person but I'm perfectly able to enjoy more 'grown-up' fare). It's certainly intriguing how acceptable it has become for adults to admit they love Harry Potter, Twilight or The Hunger Games, all franchises specifically written for teens.

Well...if you look at the original golden/silver age comics...yeah, they're pretty lame by todays standards. But even if Avengers is based on that...that doesnt prevent it from building more complex characters NOW, or being more entertaining.

Not all movies have to be Donnie Darko or Jacobs Ladder.

Superheroes are most interesting when they are closest to regular humans. Flawed. And most superhero movies of today feature exactly that kind of hero. Personally I can enjoy a good character arc even if the character dresses up in a strange costume/armor half the time. And I pity those that cant.

 

[TheIceQueen]

Did anyone else here actually read the article? He isn't mad at people for liking kids stuff, he's mad at them for taking concepts that are joyous for children and warping them so that they are more suitable for adults. What he says about superheroes is:

"They don't mean what they used to mean. They were originally in the hands of writers who would actively expand the imagination of their nine- to 13-year-old audience. That was completely what they were meant to do and they were doing it excellently. These days, superhero comics think the audience is certainly not nine to 13, it's nothing to do with them. It's an audience largely of 30-, 40-, 50-, 60-year old men, usually men."

I mean, he's not wrong. A while back Dan Didio explicitely said that DC was writing stories for 40 year olds, not children. Comics were made for children way back when and did not have any delusions of being anything but children's stories (except for the propaganda thing, but that's a different issue), but now just about every comic is trying so hard to be gritty adult fair, with almost all of them failing hilariously. I would like comics much more if they really were child-like fun. If Geoff Johns wants to make a mature comic book story, why does he have to use a man wearing green and black tights with an unconvincing mask to do it?

What a silly complaint considering that he's the man who, along with Frank Miller's respective The Dark Knight Returns, practically jumpstarted The Dark Age of Comics with Watchmen and not long after that, The Killing Joke.

 

[Vivi22]

An interesting interview with the always entertainingly grumpy Alan Moore here

Lots of good stuff but I was intrigued by this quote in particular

I think it's a rather alarming sign if we've got audiences of adults going to see the Avengers movie and delighting in concepts and characters meant to entertain the 12-year-old boys of the 1950s.

It's not an entirely original point but I think it's rather well made. Is it a bad thing that today's mainstream adults are flocking to see material that was aimed at yesterday's children?

MovieBob is keen on saying that geek culture has 'won' by taking over the mainstream, but is it geek culture that has won, or is it childishness? And is it a bad thing if it is?

I'm not sure of my opinion (I love Avengers as much as the next person but I'm perfectly able to enjoy more 'grown-up' fare). It's certainly intriguing how acceptable it has become for adults to admit they love Harry Potter, Twilight or The Hunger Games, all franchises specifically written for teens.

Considering the majority of the comics he's talking about aren't really being written for 12 years olds anymore, and haven't for a long time (hell, he's responsible for a few), Alan Moore is talking out of his ass. And me respecting the man's work is not going to change that.

 

[omega 616]

As I unfortunately know being mature all the time is a bad thing, I went from playing as a kid to yelling at kids to get off my lawn.

There is nothing wrong with an adult watching Avengers, hell, nothing wrong with adults enjoying pixar films! To be in a constant state of high intellectual thinking is not only tiring, it makes you one boring fuck to be around!

Wait, is he just salty 'cos Watchmen never did as well as Avengers?