Okay you need to slap her into reality then make her stop forcing her kids to become suicidal. And it really depends some parents push their kids to insanity and others forget they have them at all it happens in every nation in the world.
ALL Parents and Children
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As terrible as it is, there has to be some point where people stick up for themselves. I realise that it's far less possible as a minor, but some part of me just screams don't take it anymore. It's probably the part of me that I keep shackled at all times for self preservation and only use to rage at injustice on the internet.
Your sister thinks you have no worth if you're not married and didn't finish college? Sorry, but that is so ignorant. I fucking hate people like that who, just because they are older, have kids and are married think that is the right way to live just because they chose that path.
I know people with degrees who don't have a job and still have to live with their mum. It should be up to your nephew what he wants to do, he's old enough to make his own decisions. He should probably drop one or two of the extra curriculum things he's doing, just to make it easier on him.
It's easy enough to say 'You're not a parent, you can't tell me what to do' but if it's making your nephew have a break down in front of you you can't stand back and not do anything. I'm not a parent, but I had to intervene when I saw a scumbag mother leave her little girl outside a shopping centre with a cig to smoke.
Sounds a bit like your sister needs to pull her head out her arse, but I can't say much because I don't know her personally. It does seem to me she's trying to live through her son, or trying to build him up to be the perfect human which of course doesn't exist. Point your kids in the right direction, but you can't dictate their life to them, it's their life at the end of the day.
I know people with degrees who don't have a job and still have to live with their mum. It should be up to your nephew what he wants to do, he's old enough to make his own decisions. He should probably drop one or two of the extra curriculum things he's doing, just to make it easier on him.
It's easy enough to say 'You're not a parent, you can't tell me what to do' but if it's making your nephew have a break down in front of you you can't stand back and not do anything. I'm not a parent, but I had to intervene when I saw a scumbag mother leave her little girl outside a shopping centre with a cig to smoke.
Sounds a bit like your sister needs to pull her head out her arse, but I can't say much because I don't know her personally. It does seem to me she's trying to live through her son, or trying to build him up to be the perfect human which of course doesn't exist. Point your kids in the right direction, but you can't dictate their life to them, it's their life at the end of the day.
That was really mature of your sister to text your mother about her parenting skills. Some kids need to be pushed and some kids need to have a safety net, and there isn't exactly a perfect parent out there because each kid is going to be different. . The fact is that your nephew came to you in need and you tried to help him. Now, whether or not his mother recognizes that he is falling apart is her choice. Most people would rather hack off a limb than say that, "I messed up as a parent." All I can say, is to be there for him if he does fall apart.
Its really dependant on the parent and I think you should push your kids to do well thats what I've always gotten you can do what you like and you don't hace to be the best but you need to put forth an effort and attempt to do well. Some parents get crazy thinking that making their kid study 8 hours a day and thinking it'll be good for them you can only push someone so far before they snap and either rebel or breakdown there are so many examples of what that amount of stress will do to you. Being sucesdful doesn't make you happy if you never wanted it the kid who grows up to head the fortune 500 company can be miserable because he was pushed into business instead of art which he loved while the starving artist who lived his own life couldn't be happier. You cannot controll your children forever instill in them the best of what you have the rest is up to them.
Parents mean well. It's a tough job market, and she wants her son to have security. My mother is Chinese, and I know it's a stereotype, but she raised me very strictly. My father was a university lecturer from the UK. I had to the take the so-called "Suicide Six" subjects in High-school (Physics, Biology, Chemistry, Maths B (intermediate maths) and Maths C (advanced maths) plus the compulsory English). No parties, no "hanging-out" with friends, and the constant pressure to do well. She wasn't an ogre - she allowed me to play video games and study how I wanted - the only demand was that I do well. I was in the debating team for my high-school, and while I didn't exactly enjoy it, it did give me practice in public speaking.
It worked. I have a Master's Degree (Molecular Biology). I've been admitted into Medical School at one of the finest universities in Australia. And at the end of the day, I think my most valuable possession (if it can be called that) is my education and knowledge. I am extremely grateful that my mother and father pushed me so hard, because I would be a poorer person for it. My education has illuminated so many aspects of my life - I would be an entirely different person if it was not for my university education.
Luckily, my goals aligned with my parents goals (they didn't brain-wash me, I came to appreciate science on its own). For my brother... well, unfortunately he was of a different mind-set and suffered a lot of stress under my mother's strict parenting style.
So I understand that not all kids want to go to university. But... look, life isn't entirely about what we want. I'm studying to become a doctor because I need job-security. I still intend to be a full-time researcher, but it's difficult to get grants and I need a fall-back position. I've locked myself in for 3 years of Med school + 3 years of PhD course work (it's a joint degree) and a couple more years for further medical training and specialization because I need security in my job and in my life. We don't get to always do what we want all the time.
Think studying is stressful? Try being out of work. Try raising a family on minimum wage. That's much more stressful. Hell, life in general after high school is more stressful than anything I had to face in High school. Learning to deal with stress is important because that's what we have to do. For me, my work load forced me to channel my stress into anger which I then channelled back into work. Because I had a reasonably stressful time at high-school, I've learned to deal with it, to push past the boredom, the anxiety and just DO IT. Whatever I have to do, I have learned the art of just steeling myself and getting on with whatever I have to do.
Forcing your kid to learn and learn well gives them more opportunity in life. The average lifespan in the US is around 80 years these days. There's plenty of time left after High-school to decide what you want to do. Most of us don't even have stable careers until we're 30 these days. A well-educated child is a child with OPTIONS. Your nephew might never go to university, might never want to go to college. When he turns 18, however, he'll HAVE THE OPTION. Whether or not he takes it is up to him and it should be up to him, but his mother is just preparing him so that he can lead the life he wants. We often don't know what we want exactly when we are young. I myself, until I was 16, was dead-set on becoming a physicist. Then, I changed my mind and decided to become a biologist/doctor. If I hadn't taken Biology in high-school, I might not have been able to become a biologist. My high-school subjects enabled me to have the choice to enrol in any university course I wished. I could have become literally ANYTHING. I could have become a computer scientist, a physicist, a chemist, a carpenter, an engineer, a psychologist, a vet or a chef - literally, there was no path that was not open to me after I left high-school. Your sister wants to give her son the same opportunity.
Life is stressful. That's a given. Unless you are lucky enough to be born into a family of millionaires or unless you've won the lottery, there's no avoiding stress. It's better that he learns how to deal with stress at a young age.
However that boyscout stuff is nonsense. By all means push your child in a direction, but you can't make your child a polymath or all-rounder. She shouldn't force her child to take activities that won't give him more opportunities, and being an Eagle Scout might be a nice achievement, but I've never heard of anyone being employed on the basis that they've done good in scouting.
P.S: I have nothing against the United States scouts. I have no doubt that scouting is a fun recreational activity that can teach some useful survival skills. But it's a pretty useless thing to put on your resume, unless you want to be a park ranger, and even then it's not that useful.
So he should drop at least a few of the activities he is doing, especially if he doesn't enjoy them. I know I said that life is full of unpleasant tasks that we have to do, but recreational sports and scouting and church youth groups aren't great providers of opportunity (unless he wants to be a sports coach at a religious university).
It worked. I have a Master's Degree (Molecular Biology). I've been admitted into Medical School at one of the finest universities in Australia. And at the end of the day, I think my most valuable possession (if it can be called that) is my education and knowledge. I am extremely grateful that my mother and father pushed me so hard, because I would be a poorer person for it. My education has illuminated so many aspects of my life - I would be an entirely different person if it was not for my university education.
Luckily, my goals aligned with my parents goals (they didn't brain-wash me, I came to appreciate science on its own). For my brother... well, unfortunately he was of a different mind-set and suffered a lot of stress under my mother's strict parenting style.
So I understand that not all kids want to go to university. But... look, life isn't entirely about what we want. I'm studying to become a doctor because I need job-security. I still intend to be a full-time researcher, but it's difficult to get grants and I need a fall-back position. I've locked myself in for 3 years of Med school + 3 years of PhD course work (it's a joint degree) and a couple more years for further medical training and specialization because I need security in my job and in my life. We don't get to always do what we want all the time.
Think studying is stressful? Try being out of work. Try raising a family on minimum wage. That's much more stressful. Hell, life in general after high school is more stressful than anything I had to face in High school. Learning to deal with stress is important because that's what we have to do. For me, my work load forced me to channel my stress into anger which I then channelled back into work. Because I had a reasonably stressful time at high-school, I've learned to deal with it, to push past the boredom, the anxiety and just DO IT. Whatever I have to do, I have learned the art of just steeling myself and getting on with whatever I have to do.
Forcing your kid to learn and learn well gives them more opportunity in life. The average lifespan in the US is around 80 years these days. There's plenty of time left after High-school to decide what you want to do. Most of us don't even have stable careers until we're 30 these days. A well-educated child is a child with OPTIONS. Your nephew might never go to university, might never want to go to college. When he turns 18, however, he'll HAVE THE OPTION. Whether or not he takes it is up to him and it should be up to him, but his mother is just preparing him so that he can lead the life he wants. We often don't know what we want exactly when we are young. I myself, until I was 16, was dead-set on becoming a physicist. Then, I changed my mind and decided to become a biologist/doctor. If I hadn't taken Biology in high-school, I might not have been able to become a biologist. My high-school subjects enabled me to have the choice to enrol in any university course I wished. I could have become literally ANYTHING. I could have become a computer scientist, a physicist, a chemist, a carpenter, an engineer, a psychologist, a vet or a chef - literally, there was no path that was not open to me after I left high-school. Your sister wants to give her son the same opportunity.
Life is stressful. That's a given. Unless you are lucky enough to be born into a family of millionaires or unless you've won the lottery, there's no avoiding stress. It's better that he learns how to deal with stress at a young age.
However that boyscout stuff is nonsense. By all means push your child in a direction, but you can't make your child a polymath or all-rounder. She shouldn't force her child to take activities that won't give him more opportunities, and being an Eagle Scout might be a nice achievement, but I've never heard of anyone being employed on the basis that they've done good in scouting.
P.S: I have nothing against the United States scouts. I have no doubt that scouting is a fun recreational activity that can teach some useful survival skills. But it's a pretty useless thing to put on your resume, unless you want to be a park ranger, and even then it's not that useful.
So he should drop at least a few of the activities he is doing, especially if he doesn't enjoy them. I know I said that life is full of unpleasant tasks that we have to do, but recreational sports and scouting and church youth groups aren't great providers of opportunity (unless he wants to be a sports coach at a religious university).
I wasn't pressured nearly as hard as your nephew when I was fifteen, but the pressure was definitely there. I felt myself getting pushed much farther than what I felt was possible for me to achieve, and when I tried complaining, I found that nobody who was in any position to help me, gave a shit. The only solution any of them had to offer was that I work harder, study more, have less fun, etc. In other words, the exact same crap that was giving me trouble in the first place.
Were they really so ignorant that they couldn't figure this out, or were they just accepting my pleas for help as an invitation to spew out more of their crap? To this day, I have no idea.
So I found a solution on my own: I stopped caring. I'd just sit at school, staring vacantly ahead and not making any efforts to understand or even register what the teacher was talking about. It was no less boring than actively participating in the program - but it was FAR less exhausting.
Whenever my mother or some teacher tried getting me to explain why I wasn't doing anything, I'd pretty much just ignore them. Not a very sociable approach, I know, but in the past they had repeatedly made it clear that they would never accept any explaination I could possibly provide. Trying to reason with them was quite simply a needless waste of effort.
Yeah. I acted like a zombie for X years (I didn't bother counting), and that is how I made it through my teens with my health and sanity intact.
Were they really so ignorant that they couldn't figure this out, or were they just accepting my pleas for help as an invitation to spew out more of their crap? To this day, I have no idea.
So I found a solution on my own: I stopped caring. I'd just sit at school, staring vacantly ahead and not making any efforts to understand or even register what the teacher was talking about. It was no less boring than actively participating in the program - but it was FAR less exhausting.
Whenever my mother or some teacher tried getting me to explain why I wasn't doing anything, I'd pretty much just ignore them. Not a very sociable approach, I know, but in the past they had repeatedly made it clear that they would never accept any explaination I could possibly provide. Trying to reason with them was quite simply a needless waste of effort.
Yeah. I acted like a zombie for X years (I didn't bother counting), and that is how I made it through my teens with my health and sanity intact.
the middle ground seems to be lenient parent good kid so its not the parent that matters its the kidJ03bot said:
hell I looked up universitys at 12 for the thing that I want to do because I want to do that not to suceed at it the problem is that parents see some jobs as better than others when realisticly the reason so many forieign people are suscessfull is because they are willing to take the shitty job then build up
All due respect but is that kid really having such a hard time? Think about the time he's genuinely doing these activities he's "forced into" and then think about how much time that really is in his life, what the benefits will be.
Alot of parents push their kids hard but what makes it really worth running away in tears? Believe me i know what it's like to be pushed hard, thats my the story of my life at the minute, i'm 15 and am pushed to a great extent as well but is it really worth crying over?
If parents are pushing kids so much then why arent test scores going through the roof? From what i've seen parents arent pushing kids enough.
Alot of parents push their kids hard but what makes it really worth running away in tears? Believe me i know what it's like to be pushed hard, thats my the story of my life at the minute, i'm 15 and am pushed to a great extent as well but is it really worth crying over?
If parents are pushing kids so much then why arent test scores going through the roof? From what i've seen parents arent pushing kids enough.
Well professionally speaking some parents, not just americans, do push kids too far. A child wont learn from 5 hours of rigorous study and could even make them apathetic to the information making it just another thing to memorize and not learn.
I'm not saying nudging your child to succeed is wrong, I'm just saying if you nudge and your child panics or breaks down that's usually a good time to step back and slow down. What I have seen with these kinds of parents is they feel dissatisfied with how their life turned out. Not all people are like that but the ones I have seen were.
Hell I'm not married, never even went to college, and currently live with my mother, by your sisters standards I'm a massive failure but I earn a good wage and am pretty happy.
So in all nudging a child to succeed is very good for the childs growth but shoving them into a pit of forced overachievement just kills them. I suggest being there for your nephew sometimes kids under a lot of stress do very destructive things and definitely get your sister and nephew to go see a counselor but dont beat her over the head about it, people only change or seek help when they want it.
I'm not saying nudging your child to succeed is wrong, I'm just saying if you nudge and your child panics or breaks down that's usually a good time to step back and slow down. What I have seen with these kinds of parents is they feel dissatisfied with how their life turned out. Not all people are like that but the ones I have seen were.
Hell I'm not married, never even went to college, and currently live with my mother, by your sisters standards I'm a massive failure but I earn a good wage and am pretty happy.
So in all nudging a child to succeed is very good for the childs growth but shoving them into a pit of forced overachievement just kills them. I suggest being there for your nephew sometimes kids under a lot of stress do very destructive things and definitely get your sister and nephew to go see a counselor but dont beat her over the head about it, people only change or seek help when they want it.
So you mention 2 nationalities besides American and say that's the whole world? You've got a really small world if you didn't even consider Europe, Australia of Africa. I know for a fact that here we aren't pushed that hard, yet our country hasn't failed. We have a disturbingly high rate of suicides, but quite low rates of homicides and other violent crimes.warprincenataku said:
I can't speak for many nationalities and certainly not Americans, but from what I catch from American friends and media it seems like a lot of parents are pushing their kids too much. They want them to be everything. They wont let them pick their activities and quit if they don't like it. They need to study hard and participate in social activities. Here it's more important that we participate in social activities so we grow up to be humans not robots. I believe the choice should be left in the hands of the kids themselves. Sure, make them do their homework, advice them to participate in social activities, but forcing them to be all you aren't is wrong.
I think that this is a real problem,
Parents forcing their chrildren to do all this mindless busywork doesn't produce good chrildren, skilled chrildren, or smart chrildren.
It is important to encourage kids, but only towards the activities that THEY feel are important, otherwise they'll never understand passion for what they do.
I spent my youth (and current life) playing computer games, reading, learning stuff about science.. These were the things I loved, and my parents encouraged me in these areas that I loved! Now I'm working In a physics lab, doing what I want to do & what I love!
I was only able to do this, because my parents encouraged & supported me doing whatever the hell I wanted!! (they still think my job is stupid, but support me all the same!!)
In order to have happy, sucessful human beings, they require space to choose what they want to do, thats the only way for them to learn and achieve.
The perception of the 'perfect child' (aka, A+ students, plays 20 instruments etc..) Is a horrific lie, and is stifiling true personality growth of the kid!
Parents forcing their chrildren to do all this mindless busywork doesn't produce good chrildren, skilled chrildren, or smart chrildren.
It is important to encourage kids, but only towards the activities that THEY feel are important, otherwise they'll never understand passion for what they do.
I spent my youth (and current life) playing computer games, reading, learning stuff about science.. These were the things I loved, and my parents encouraged me in these areas that I loved! Now I'm working In a physics lab, doing what I want to do & what I love!
I was only able to do this, because my parents encouraged & supported me doing whatever the hell I wanted!! (they still think my job is stupid, but support me all the same!!)
In order to have happy, sucessful human beings, they require space to choose what they want to do, thats the only way for them to learn and achieve.
The perception of the 'perfect child' (aka, A+ students, plays 20 instruments etc..) Is a horrific lie, and is stifiling true personality growth of the kid!
I am so very glad that my parents were not the kind to push me to absurd lengths in school. Sure in High school I could have done better, and if I was pushed more and forced to study and all that I would most likely have done better. Though I think that because my parents let me do what I want and only really intervened was when I was becoming to lazy, let me find out what I really wanted to do.
If I was forced by my parents to do only school work in high school sure I would most likely had good grades and been successful in school, but would have cost me being able to find out what I really like to do. On Monday I start collage for 3D animation and it is something I really enjoy doing. I not only believe but am almost certain that because of my parents willingness to let me do what I wanted allowed me to discover what I love to do.
In the end I think that parents need to help keep the kid on track but not force them into everything. Let the kid do what they want, let them explore so that they can become there own person. If in the end you have to sacrifice some advance math and English courses to allow them to discover what they love is it really so bad.
If I was forced by my parents to do only school work in high school sure I would most likely had good grades and been successful in school, but would have cost me being able to find out what I really like to do. On Monday I start collage for 3D animation and it is something I really enjoy doing. I not only believe but am almost certain that because of my parents willingness to let me do what I wanted allowed me to discover what I love to do.
In the end I think that parents need to help keep the kid on track but not force them into everything. Let the kid do what they want, let them explore so that they can become there own person. If in the end you have to sacrifice some advance math and English courses to allow them to discover what they love is it really so bad.
I'm currently seeing a psychologist to help me manage stress caused by overwork and high expectations. It doesn't help that I am (in the least stuck-up way possible) more intelligent than most people and have all the pressure on me to succeed.Yermenko said:
At the moment I'm doing this. And I've gone from being an A+ student to a C- student. Still passing somehow, despite doing literally no work.busterkeatonrules said:
Fuck you and everything you stand for. In this case, "crack" means either "commits suicide", "goes on a killing spree" or "becomes cynical, depressed and hates life". Not to mention that it's seriously hard to make and keep friends if you have hundreds of other things to worry about, so your social life is gimped as a result. Don't even get me started on relationships.warprincenataku said:
EDIT: Apologies, that sounds a bit harsh when rereading. The sentiment still stands though.
This is a bit of a culture shock for me. I was in one of the three best secondary schools and am now in the best university in the country. My parents supported, but never pushed me and as far as I can tell it was the same for everyone else in (at least) my class back in secondary school. Everyone did what they wanted in their spare time. No 3+ extra-curricular activities. I assume the reason for that is that Austrian universities have a very open admission system. You pretty much qualify as long as you've finished at least 12 years of school. (Unfortunately, our universities are far from the best, but that's mostly because of their serious lack of funding.) With a background like that I always found it hard to understand scenarios as described above.
On the other hand I a girl I was acquainted with gets pushed by her mother to become a physical therapist and get a degree on the side. She's cranky and stressed all the time. Her mother openly criticizes her lack of success and keeps stressing that her daughter chose to do all this herself. All this because she apparently does not want her to be the only one in the family without a degree .
I do have something to contribute to this discussion, though: Study Hacks [http://calnewport.com/blog/]
Cal Newport does not only give you tips on how to study more efficiently, he also points out how to get into a good college (or even more general, a getting a good job) without becoming a stressed out wreck. In his latest book [http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0767932587?ie=UTF8&tag=stuhac-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0767932587] he illustrates how a list of activities like in the first post does not impress admission committees at all. They are much more interested in people who focus on a single activity in which they excel or accomplish something impressive.
So, my advice: Get your nephew to read said blog and/or the books.
On the other hand I a girl I was acquainted with gets pushed by her mother to become a physical therapist and get a degree on the side. She's cranky and stressed all the time. Her mother openly criticizes her lack of success and keeps stressing that her daughter chose to do all this herself. All this because she apparently does not want her to be the only one in the family without a degree .
I do have something to contribute to this discussion, though: Study Hacks [http://calnewport.com/blog/]
Cal Newport does not only give you tips on how to study more efficiently, he also points out how to get into a good college (or even more general, a getting a good job) without becoming a stressed out wreck. In his latest book [http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0767932587?ie=UTF8&tag=stuhac-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0767932587] he illustrates how a list of activities like in the first post does not impress admission committees at all. They are much more interested in people who focus on a single activity in which they excel or accomplish something impressive.
So, my advice: Get your nephew to read said blog and/or the books.
My parent's never forced me to do anything, I can't even imagine what that must be like.
I played an instrument for 6 years, and I wanted to quit so they let me.
I practised karate for 2 years, and I wanted to switch so they let me.
The only real place where i was (and am) pressured was (is) in school. Even than it's more like encouragement when i succeed and punishing and encouraging me when I fail. My mother maybe slightly forced on me the belief that I should probably get a head start now, when I still can.
I played an instrument for 6 years, and I wanted to quit so they let me.
I practised karate for 2 years, and I wanted to switch so they let me.
The only real place where i was (and am) pressured was (is) in school. Even than it's more like encouragement when i succeed and punishing and encouraging me when I fail. My mother maybe slightly forced on me the belief that I should probably get a head start now, when I still can.