Always-on-DRM - why buy games with it?

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

Yes I am perfectly Ok with that. That is why I play MMO's.

That's your argument? An MMO? Are you fuckin' serious? If you don't see how ridiculous that is it's pointless to even try to argue against it.

Are you ok with the risk of your CD's getting scratched or breaking? I doubt its something you give much thought when you are playing the game. Same with me.

I already told you that there are ways of ensuring the safety of your games. Some of them can last longer than you.

As opposed to having you tell me when and what I can pay for?

And when did I say that?

Now tell me what right is this again? The right of games only being able to exist as a product rather than a service? You need to tell me what right is being fought for here. Right of ownership doesn't apply if they arn't selling.

I have to question your intelligence now. You just quoted what appears to be my problem with not being able to use something I payed for when I want to use it, and instead having to rely on others to tell me when I can use it. And you are unable to conclude what those rights are?

Let's change video games with cars. So this is the hypothetical situation. Let's say that cars have some kind of ignition system that is operated by a server somewhere and when the server goes down you can't drive the car. Now, would you be OK with that and would you consider it a violation of consumer rights?

The thing is, THEY ARE SELLING! The fact that you believed them when they said that they aren't is exactly what the problem with people like you is. That's the core issue. You believe in bullshit corporate propaganda.

Yeah ok..... that is just insulting not even an effort to try and reason.

Let's just ignore the rest of my post. There's no effort there. Right.

Well paint a full group with one brush will ya

I said often, not always. Learn how to read.

but hey there is a whole complicated field of goods and services here. I think I would be wasting my time trying to explain them to a guy who opens with thinking I am what is wrong with the world.

I said that corporate apologists are what's wrong with the world. If that's how you identify yourself as that's your problem.

Well technically if I bought it well... its complicated again. Let us just say I am ok with not owning a game if it doesn't get in the way of me playing it.

And that kind of thinking is yet another problem.

Eh no.... that is like saying "You paid for a gardener, but he left now so you paid for nothing". I am perfectly ok paying for services.

You're not paying for a service. You're paying for a game. The fact that you bought into the empty corporate rhetoric that you're just paying for a service further confirms my assertion that you're brainwashed.

Now I am going to have to ask you to be specific about the anti-consumer stuff you are on about. I mean being made to pay in the first place is anti-consumer. But hey as a guy who actually read what I sign I tend to find them within the bound of reason when talking terms of a service.

What the fuck have we been discussing so far? Are you really unable to draw simple conclusions? Why am I even asking you that? Obviously the answer is yes. Otherwise you wouldn't buy into that corporate shit so easily.

I can only assume that is you grading your post.

This as well is a pathetic effort.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

That is a horrible argument unless you think its okay that clothes fall apart a week after purchase. You can expect organic things to decay, not mechanical things.

Wut?

What future society do you live in, Future Man? Mechanical things decay all the time.

A couple of questions for these always-on DRM apologists.

Pissy, and I'm not really "apologizing" for anything, but I'll play. What happened to you, Jensen? I don't remember you being this frothy before. Maybe I'm thinking of a different Jensen. Regardless, onwards!

Are you OK with not being able to play the game that you bought with your hard earned money when you want if your connection is down or when the servers are down?

My connection isn't really an issue but servers? Yes, I'm OK with that. I'm never like "Yay, I wanted to play and the servers are now down", but I've gotten accustomed to it over years of playing MMOs. Servers come down from time to time. Life continues.

Are you honestly OK having to depend on others to tell you when you can use what you payed for?

Let me answer this question with a question: Have you ever rented anything? Paid a fee to access a place or service, and then had that access end? Or has everything you've ever purchased been something you've owned and gotten to keep forever and ever?

Like, maybe one day, when you're old and grey, you'll be surrounded with all your purchases, and you'll proudly intone "Ima be buried with all this shit!", and your family will look on, tears glimmering in their eyes, and they'll nod solemnly and say "It was because he fought so hard in the great DRM wars, that made this possible".

And do you honestly think it's not a consumer rights issue?

I...guess. It's not like I'm not informed. It's not like it was snuck in there without me being aware of it, and then I bought it and I was like...oh noes! I was tricked! Mah rights!

You see, that is an excellent example of corporate brainwashing. Congratulations. That kind of mindset is exactly what's wrong with this world. You deserve no respect.

Yes, the mindset of "I'd like to play this video game" is exactly what's wrong with the world. I think you should take this crusade on the road, Martin Luther King. I think everyone will want to hear about your dream, and how their personal issues with illness or hunger or poverty or war take a back seat to your DRM Crusade. Or you could use slightly less ridiculous language when trying to communicate your hilarious emo ideals. Up to you.

I just can't understand how someone can defend a system that is rigged directly against them. How hard is it for you to understand that these companies aren't using always-on DRM because they want to help the customers. They want to help themselves.

Everyone understands that, Jensen. However much you want to characterize people who disagree with your zeal as stupid or spineless, which is really classy of you btw, I don't think the fact that DRM is meant to be pro-company as opposed to pro-consumer is a really a mystery to anyone. Thank you, though, Columbo, for your searing expose on an obvious truth.

So I have a couple of questions for the anti-DRM fanatics. Not all of you, just the fanatics. You guys know who you are. The zealots. The ideologues. The ones with spittle coming out of their mouths when they speak, so incandescent is their rage.

1. Do you know what perspective is?
2. Do you know how ridiculous it sounds, when you compare video game companies to dictators, and DRM to the Holocaust?
3. Do you?
4. No, seriously, do you?

 

[Jamous]

Because your desire to play the game outweighs your dislike for always on DRM I should imagine. I understand that it really does give you a shitty gig, but a lot of people who have stable internet connections wouldn't be affected too badly, so the people implementing it can get away with it until the servers start to go down.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

Yes, the mindset of "I'd like to play this video game" is exactly what's wrong with the world. I think you should take this crusade on the road, Martin Luther King. I think everyone will want to hear about your dream, and how their personal issues with illness or hunger or poverty or war take a back seat to your DRM Crusade. Or you could use slightly less ridiculous language when trying to communicate your hilarious emo ideals. Up to you.

Missing the bigger picture, as always. It's the mindset of people who easily buy into empty rhetoric that only hurts them. Buying into always-on DRM is a small part of that mindset.

I thought it would be clear by now that always-on DRM isn't a singular issue. I thought people realized that practices like that are only a part of the problem which is the taking away consumer rights. It's not just always-on DRM that matters for fuck sake. But since we're gamers, we talk about that the most on this forum. It's the fact that people accept when corporations tell them that they don't own what they buy anymore and that they can take it away from you if they want and when they want regardless of the fact that you payed for it. How can people be OK with buying but not owning? When did this happen?

What happened to you, Jensen? I don't remember you being this frothy before.

There are a few issues that I'm maybe a little too passionate about. Can't help it.

 

[Ascarus]

simply put ... people steal games. "game companies" over react with draconian DRM. i want to play said game with draconian DRM. so i buy the game.

it's not rocket science.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Missing the bigger picture, as always.

Well no, I'm not missing the "big picture" so much as you are missing the point. I'll say it again. If you cannot figure out a way to communicate your anxiety about always online DRM without resorting to wild flights of fancy, RIDICULOUS and borderline offensive analogues, or personal attacks, then you will continue to find opposition from people who might otherwise be sympathetic.

I'm going to guess you are in your late teens or early twenties, and the fact you are living in a corpocracy has recently become apparent to you, and thus you are consumed with this feeling that everyone around you is a sheeple and it is up to you to bring the word of truth to the deluded masses. You know how sometimes people can be very condescending, and say things like "Lol teenagers" to hand-wave a particular behavior or mindset? This is one of those times. We've all been there man. This shit you think no one understands is extremely common knowledge.

It's the fact that people accept when corporations tell them that they don't own what they buy anymore and that they can take it away from you if they want and when they want regardless of the fact that you payed for it. How can people be OK with buying but not owning? When did this happen?

I can try and explain this to you, if you want. I can give you another perspective. I have no idea if you're willing to be receptive, and whether you're actually having a conversation in this thread, or if you just want to fling shit. I guess we'll find out.

1. I do not really fear them "taking it from me". Why? It's not happened. I've been gaming for 30 years, and it's not happened. A game I've been playing and enjoying has never been wrenched out of my hands because a company has arbitrarily decided it was Time to be Evil.
2. The fact I paid for something does not automatically infuse me with a sense of ownership. As I said before, I've done a lot of renting in my life. I pay LESS for a sale game off Steam...which I play for 10-40 hours...than I do to rent a video off video on demand...which I watch for 2. And I still have those games. The video disappears after 24 hours. Neither fills me with consumer rage. Neither makes me feel taken advantage of. I feel happy with my purchases.
3. The likelihood of a game's lifespan elapsing while I am still playing/enjoying that game lies somewhere firmly between slim and none. Odds are by the time a game is likely to be retired from existence, I will already be playing the sequel to its sequel. Do I on RARE occasions get a retro gaming urge? Sure! Often those games are available for pennies off GOG, or someone has created a fan-made reboot. That's assuming I've lost my original copy, which...I almost certainly have. =\
4. I do not share your dim view of the future. I see a lot of companies leaning in anti-DRM directions despite what EA and Ubisoft get up to in their Black Citadels, and I don't forsee a future where we are all puppets dancing on the end of our master's strings. Do I think we'll see some more DRM gong shows where the DRM is obtrusive and idiotic and everyone hates it? Sure I do. But I don't see the future blanketed in DRM where companies snatch games from existence willy nilly and cackle and rub their leathery hands together in glee because they fucked us good. That will never happen. Corporations are not EVIL. They are AMORAL. They are driven by profit motive, and there will always be a market demand for DRM free games, just as there will sometimes be a market demand for always online games.

There are a few issues that I'm maybe a little too passionate about. Can't help it.

Passion is Good. Zealotry is bad. I'm 100% supportive of anyone who has a bad internet connection or who likes to play their games on and off for 20 years and who, as a result, hates always online DRM. I support them RIGHT UP to the point where they want me to base my purchases off their issues. Then we have a disagreement. I will stand side by side with my gaming brethren and say "DRM IS POOP" all day long, but if I want to play a fucking game, I'm gonna play that game, DRM be damned. If and when I do play those games, I will make a SPECIAL POINT of communicating I bought it IN SPITE of the DRM, just for you guys, contingent on everyone getting a grip, toning down the abuse, and ceasing to compare the DRM issue to a human rights disaster.

 

[CrystalShadow]

DRM just goes to prove that games aren't valued by their creators as anything other than a way to make money.

The harsher the DRM, the more risk there is of the game dissapearing forever into the mists of time.

Imagine if Shakespeare's works had DRM.

I wonder how many usable copies of it would still exist now if that were the case?


DRM might help the finances of a company, but it is provably detrimental to the cultural value of anything which contains it...

 

[Xanadu84]

All good things have bad things in it. Having bad things may make good things less good, but if it's a very good thing, then even if it has a bad thing in it, it can still be good.

Captcha says, "Easy as cake". Well played captcha, well played.

 

[Laughing Man]

Well technically any free to play tends to have it in one sort or another. A good example would be League of Legends.

Well I am talking about games that meet a few specific points here;

a). Games that you pay for
b). Games that have no actual online component but still require a constant internet connection

Are their any games that meet these criteria in the wild any more? Ubi patched out the always on on most of their games that had it. D3 doesn't count and neither does Sim City as both have passable reasons for having the always on connection. So... I dunno are their any games?

Anyone else see the comic irony in a free to play game having an always online anti piracy measure in place? Sure doesn't make a whole lot of sense does it?

I am strongly against always on DRM, to the point where I didn't buy any Ubi games that used it, and still haven't bought them even now they have had it patched out. Ill complain about it in a very general kind of way, I would even drop buy a publisher forum and state that I will not buy your games because you are using this form of DRM (I did this with Ubisoft.)

I however won't attack someone who does go out and buy the game, I won't accuse them of being the foot soldier of the jack booted publisher overlord who wants to have all controlling say over how and when I play my games. The reason for this is quite simple. I've decided not to pay for the game so I don't expect my dis agreement to hold as much weight as the person who did buy it.

See the folk that argue against this form of DRM use the same flawed argument, the publisher uses it because they value money over the product (true) that they don't care about you or the issues you have because you already bought the game and they have your cash (false) that by not buying the game I am telling them that I don't support their attitude to DRM practice (false).

The game industry is so competitive and so costly now and with it moving towards multi part game releases, with addons, DLCs, extras, online passes and a multitude of services that stretch well beyond the release day purchase of the game and are all designed to get cash from the consumer over the long term. The idea that a publisher will grab your cash and stick you with crap DRM and then never listen to your complaints is laughable. The publisher wants to keep you coming back over the long term to spend more cash on the extras for the game you bought and then they want you to do the same thing next year when the sequel comes along. If the DRM prevents you from playing and they do nothing to address the issue then they loose you as a long term customer. The idea of a snatch and run on your cash is just stupid.

The idea that by buying the game you support the DRM and by not buying it you are telling them you don't support it is also laughable. As a paying consumer, you have shown the publisher that you have taken the first step on that long road of paying for all the add ons and extras. You are now a vested interest for that publisher and it is in their best concern to keep the road as smooth as possible, so when you turn up at their support / forum and say been trying to play game x for two days now DRM is stopping me you are more likely to get listened too than the guy turning up and saying I didn't buy game x because of the DRM, you didn't who cares go away and bother someone else I got paying customers to deal with here.

The anti DRM arguments only work in an industry where you can do a grab and run on ppls money, it only works in an industry where long term money grabbing DLC, addons and passes aren't a thing, it only works in an industry where they won't be trying to sell you a sequel in a years time and it only works in an industry where the loud voice of those against can actually have an affect on the final products overall sales. The problem is the game industry isn't one of those industries.

 

[EtherealBeaver]

If they arent going to support a game they sell why sell it at all then? It would be like selling an old car without the motor and refusing to answer questions about the motor because "its old".

You make it seem like that doesn't happen for cars. There's still people buying cars that are essentially unfixable if and when they break. If people know about it up front, then there really isn't an issue. It only becomes a problem when it's hushed up.

You make it sound like its acceptable business practice. It is not acceptable business practice and it only goes to show how horrible the morale of some games publishers have become.

 

[TreuloseTomate]

There is NO reason why I should be forced to be connected to the internet in order to play the singleplayer mode of ANY videogame.

 

[klaynexas3]

God dammit, I feel like I need to bring this up again and basically shout it.

*clears throat*YOUR WALLET IS NOT THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN CHANGE THE INDUSTRY. GAMES ARE AN ART FORM, AND THUS YOU CAN MAKE THEM TOO. MAKE YOUR STAND, BUT DON'T DEMONIZE THE OTHERS AS OPPRESSORS OF FREEDOM. IF YOU WANT A CHANGE, DO ALL YOU CAN DO, NOT JUST NOT BUY SOMETHING. YOU'RE NOT A HERO FOR NOT SPENDING MONEY. GET IN THE INDUSTRY AND MAKE A DIFFERENCE AND STOP ACTING LIKE AAA COMPANIES CONTROL IT ALL. IT DOESN'T. MAKE A DIFFERENCE, AND STOP BEING A DICK TO THOSE THAT ARE SIMPLY WANTING TO PLAY GAMES.

Seriously, come down off your high horse and realize that you really aren't saving the gaming world because you didn't buy something. I'll treat you like a hero the moment you make a company greater than Valve. Until then, you're just another consumer making a decision. The big companies don't control everything, this is more so true in the PC gaming market, but will soon be true also with the Ouya, Gamestick, and all these different "Steambox" type gadgets.

I can understand the dislike for always-on DRM, and I understand your boycotts, and I myself have yet to buy a game with always-on DRM, but I am damn sick of you people acting so...upity...just because you made this decision and treating anyone that doesn't totally agree with you with the utmost contempt.

 

[Atomic German]

God dammit, I feel like I need to bring this up again and basically shout it.

*clears throat*YOUR WALLET IS NOT THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN CHANGE THE INDUSTRY. GAMES ARE AN ART FORM, AND THUS YOU CAN MAKE THEM TOO. MAKE YOUR STAND, BUT DON'T DEMONIZE THE OTHERS AS OPPRESSORS OF FREEDOM. IF YOU WANT A CHANGE, DO ALL YOU CAN DO, NOT JUST NOT BUY SOMETHING. YOU'RE NOT A HERO FOR NOT SPENDING MONEY. GET IN THE INDUSTRY AND MAKE A DIFFERENCE AND STOP ACTING LIKE AAA COMPANIES CONTROL IT ALL. IT DOESN'T. MAKE A DIFFERENCE, AND STOP BEING A DICK TO THOSE THAT ARE SIMPLY WANTING TO PLAY GAMES.

Seriously, come down off your high horse and realize that you really aren't saving the gaming world because you didn't buy something. I'll treat you like a hero the moment you make a company greater than Valve. Until then, you're just another consumer making a decision. The big companies don't control everything, this is more so true in the PC gaming market, but will soon be true also with the Ouya, Gamestick, and all these different "Steambox" type gadgets.

I can understand the dislike for always-on DRM, and I understand your boycotts, and I myself have yet to buy a game with always-on DRM, but I am damn sick of you people acting so...upity...just because you made this decision and treating anyone that doesn't totally agree with you with the utmost contempt.

This is what I resonate with. Yeah, I bought Dead Space 3. Not because I accept DRM. But because i like Vicseral Games, i love the dead space series, and i want to enjoy the game, and I did. I had a balls out fun time doing it, and not once did the always on actually ream into my adventure and crap all over it. My internet goes out, there goes more than half the games I like to play anyway, cause all of them in one capacity or another I play online with friends.

We need to come to a common realization:

DRM is here, right now and it's not going anywhere yet. Not because AAA companies are evil, but because their attempting to combat piracy and theft of their IP, whether it belongs rightfully to them or not. And its true they're very short sighted with DRM and the measures taken to enforce it don't work very well at all. However DRM isn't a ransom letter to the global community of gamers at large, that's not being righteous when you protest it, thats you being riotous because you feel its a measure taken directly against you when it wasn't the whole intent. It was a response to protecting IPs from theft. And on accident, it has been implemented ina way thats obtrusive and prohibitive to actually enjoying a game.

Boycotting will not solve that at all. not in the least bit. In fact, boycotting only going to cause a lot more suffering than prosperity for us, not them. And historically, gaming boycotts rarely have succeeded in doing anything.

DRM sucks. I get it. But it seems as lovers of our technology we've also forgotten how it evolves. Sooner or later, DRM is going to keep failing miserably, and businesses will see it's actual impact on their earnings. the industry is still growing and sooner or later a better form of security will come along. You're gonna have to have a couple Daikatnas to get a Deus Ex.

But this doesnt mean cease being a customer. Remember what Jim said? Complain, be a little pushy with things, get what you want, EA, Activision and Co. may be some pretty lame companies right now, but theyre still companies. And companies listen to money more than anything, and second to that are unhappy customers. This doesn't mean go nuts and have yourself a little revolution. But what it does mean is gets these companies to make the goods on your terms.

Savvy?

 

[thebobmaster_v1legacy]

*Totally convincing robot voice*

Because. I. Am. A. Good. Citizen. Who. Always. Buys. Games. And. Would. Never. Pirate. Anything. Because. That. Would. Be. Bad. And. Wrong. And. Badwrong. Or. Badong.

If the use of "Badong" was a Kung Pow: Enter The Fist reference, I congratulate you.

On-topic, I will admit my stake in this argument is rather limited, as the only games I play on my PC are either online games, Steam-bought, or emulated. That said, to all those saying "Down with always-on DRM", where were you when Steam came out? Sure, it has an offline mode, but A) it doesn't always work, and B) it still carries the same risk of "Your account/Steam servers have shut down, you have now lost your games".

 

[AntiChri5]

Sam is denying himself something he wants because it will cease to function in ten years. Which is utterly senseless.

That is a horrible argument unless you think its okay that clothes fall apart a week after purchase. You can expect organic things to decay, not mechanical things. And if the mechanical thing breaks, you can expect that it will be fixable, either by yourself or in a workshop. You cant do that with always-on-drm

Well, clearly we live in entirely separate realities.

Mechanical's things always break down. You seem to think it is nearly impossible, but it is in fact inevitable. The only way to prevent it is by carefully storing and never ever using the item.

And mechanical things aren't always fixable. Sometimes, the parts are no longer made. Sometimes, the damage is so extensive that replacement is far more practical then repair.

Thats life. Nothing nothing lasts forever. Not the computers you and i are communicating with, not the chairs we are sitting on, not even us.

So, when buying something, the question isn't "will this last forever" it is "will this last long enough to be worth the price tag". If it is, fine buy it. If it isn't, fine don't.

Hell, by the time these games become unplayable due to the DRM (if the devs don't simply patch it out) you will more then likely have had to buy a new computer/a crapload of parts to keep updated.

 

[Nazulu]

crap

1) Oh for fuck sake. I never said I played GW2 so how the hell can I be OK with it. If what your saying is true that it's also made to be single player as well then yes, it's shallow and stupid. Once again (cause I always have to repeat myself to you) this doesn't suddenly make it OK because someone else did it. And of course I said it's LESS of a sin because it's always been online from the beginning.

2) Oh bloody hell. You took one measly example I used for defending animals and is now trying to use it as an excuse, again. And once again I have to repeat myself. You're supporting DRM. You can twist the words as much as you want but it's not going to change.

3) Oh look, I have to repeat myself again.

Your not going to get respect when you keep saying you don't care! The people who are against DRM aren't going to disappear because we hurt your feelings! And your shitty comparisons to something completely different does not support you in any way at all.

I don't take you seriously at all when you say you don't care because you keep defending yourself with this rubbish. You are helping DRM and you can be the cause for it's growth, this isn't going to change. Don't like it? Then go suck on a lemon because repeating it won't mean shit. You keep telling me what I should believe which is the hilarious part (I have no doubt you don't realise it. You can't tell me not to be against your DRM support). You voted with your wallet and now you're stuck with the guilt pal.

This is the last time I'm repeating myself.