Am I Sexist?

[General Twinkletoes]

Is this the wrong address?thought this was a gaming website,not some "oh-my-life-is-so-terrible-am-i-sexist-what-is-this-planet-women-huh-wat-listen-to-my-sob-story-best-soap-oprea-ever" website (facebook and twitter)

Yes, you have come to the wrong address. This is the off topic section, not gaming section. He can put whatever he wants in here as long as it's not against the rules.

 

[Seydaman]

Basically, when I'm playing an ARPG game or anything where I'll need to look at my character for a long time, I'll play a female. If I need to RP, I'll play a male.

The reason is pretty simple. While I would find roleplaying a woman a bit tricky, if I have a choice I'd rather stare at a virtual woman for hours than a virtual man. I just find a shapely female form a lot more appealing.

Sexism is defined as an attitude or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.

You play women when you want to stare at an ass, but you play men when you want to do something more serious than stare at an ass. Their roles seem to be divided by whether you would like to fuck them or whether you take them seriously.

That's pretty textbook sexism. Sorry.

Ah, quite interesting.

Personally, I usually play men in games where I choose. I connect better with my gender.

 

[Phisi]

I don't think it is sexism as they don't exist. It's not like you're hiring a female secretary to stare at their arse from your office. It's a game character.

 

[maddawg IAJI]

Is this the wrong address?thought this was a gaming website,not some "oh-my-life-is-so-terrible-am-i-sexist-what-is-this-planet-women-huh-wat-listen-to-my-sob-story-best-soap-oprea-ever" website (facebook and twitter)

Nope, you're just in the off-topic section. You know, the spot on the forums that doesn't have to constrain to a specific topic like religion or politics and doesn't have to be about video games. In other words, people can talk about whatever they want over here. Want to talk to people about video games? Well here, let me direct you to the gaming forum.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/index/9-Gaming-Discussion

 

[excalipoor]

The recent outrage would have you believe that "sexism" belongs to the same category of words as "child molester" and "Hitler", but if a straight man finding women more aestethically pleasing than men while still rather roleplaying men is sexist, then I think the whole thing is massively overblown. Otherwise that's just making light of the whole issue.

 

[Overusedname]

"The female body is a work of art. The male body is utilitarian. It's for gettin' around. It's like a Jeep."

- Elaine Benes​

I don't think you're sexist. You just want an aesthetic appeal to your character(s). There's nothing wrong with that.

Interesting thing about that quote. It might be from a women, but it still implies that woman are something to be looked at, were as men are the go-getters.

Don't quote war me on how oversensitive I am. It's literally my job to read into subtext.

I would say woman are more luxury cars, they go places and look nice, men are just kind of ugly and break down a lot.

Probably a smoother way of saying it, yes.

And it kinda makes sense, as women are longer lived more resistant to diseases. Men can run longer and lift more...and that's about it.

 

[Relish in Chaos]

It?s not sexist ? at least, not the negative definition of the word. If we?re going to deconstruct the technical definition of ?sexist? to its roots, then yes, it probably is. But that?s essentially saying male heterosexuality/the male sex drive in and of itself is sexist. If so, then every straight male is sexist, and any man that accuses another man of being sexist is a hypocrite. It?s as if these people are out to just demonize any hint of a man objectifying a woman. And no, objectification in and of itself isn?t bad, I don?t care what people want to say. That goes especially if it?s in a fucking video game of all things, where the majority of the female characters don?t have personalities (that is, if they even have any) outside of the confines of the game/game world, are just as fucking ridiculous as the hulking bags of meat that are the male characters, and, you know, don?t exist.

Now, I know about ?false equivalence?; that it?s wrong to compare male and female video game characters because they?re still both built with men in mind: e.g. Ryu being a ?male power fantasy?, Ivy being a ?male sexual fantasy?. And I?m not demeaning what is a valid opinion. But there?s nothing wrong with sexualized females/female characters, especially if they want to sexualize themselves in real-life. Just that there needs to be a balance of ?nothing more than eye candy? characters and ?eye-candy characters that are interesting? characters.

I thought we were meant to live in a society where people shouldn?t be ashamed of their sexuality and sexual behaviour, where people shouldn?t ?slut-shame?, and people shouldn?t start calling a man a pig because he glanced at a woman?s cleavage (I mean, as long as you?re not glaring like some intrusive freak, then it?s fine if you take a little peak at a girl?s legs, and she can hardly have a go at you if she?s wearing a miniskirt that she should know may be arousing to many men). The majority of men don?t objectify women or are potential rapists in real-life. This is a bit like the ?Is porn sexist? Yes, so what?? thread that I started a couple of days ago. Wanting to objectify a woman for, like, five minutes while you masturbate isn?t harmful to anyone, unless you?re so retarded or insane that you can?t distinguish between fantasy and reality. I mean, if we?re really going to do this, does having a preference for girls with pixie cuts mean that you pride masculinity over femininity, since you find females that much more attractive when they have a traditionally ?boyish? haircut, finding them instantly more relatable even outside of the sexual attraction (or something like that). Or both men and women still expecting men to make the first move in terms of dating and, consistently, marriage proposals (even though it?s mostly women that desire to get married, at least more than men)? Or, taking sex out of the equation, how about the fact that most people are just more comfortable with female workers in childcare than male? It?s grasping at straws, really. Where do you draw the line?

As for ?homophobic tendencies? (not even going to bother talking much more about that, since they just seem to be overthinking it to the point of actively looking for sexist undertones), I will admit that sometimes, I unintentionally cringe or otherwise find it awkward to see two men kissing, and in some occasions, even two women that may not be particularly attractive kissing. That doesn?t make me homophobic, though. Just that, let?s face it, it?s not ?the norm?; you know, you don?t see it every day, and since society has pretty much taught us to see most forms of male romantic contact as ?weird?, there?s just that unconscious reaction that a lot of us can?t help. I mean, I guess you could make an argument that I, or all of us (except, maybe, the majority of gay people themselves), are subconsciously homophobic, but I wouldn?t buy that, since I support gay rights and sexually progressive behaviours in general, and generally don?t have a problem with gay people.

*sigh* ?Sexist? is such a shock label nowadays that it has about as much meaning as ?racist?, or ?Nazi?. Let?s just accept that women will always be desired, many humans will always be dicks about it, and there?s not much we can do about it. We can give it 50 years and have a female President like what almost happened with Hilary Clinton, but I guarantee you rape of women more than men won?t have magically gone away, just like, for all our efforts, a black president like Barack Obama doesn?t mean institutionalized racism hasn?t been wiped clean off the face of the planet.

"The female body is a work of art. The male body is utilitarian. It's for gettin' around. It's like a Jeep."

- Elaine Benes​

I don't think you're sexist. You just want an aesthetic appeal to your character(s). There's nothing wrong with that.

Interesting thing about that quote. It might be from a women, but it still implies that woman are something to be looked at, were as men are the go-getters.

Don't quote war me on how oversensitive I am. It's literally my job to read into subtext.

I think it was meant as a joke, but as sexist as this may make me sound, I think there's some truth in it. The male body does seem to be more practical than the female body. Most of the clothes for men aren't designed to be sexually arousing, and the majority of men I know are content with just wearing a T-shirt and jeans on a daily basis.

While the female body is much more flexible in many senses of the word, and women have clothes tailored specifically for their body type, such as figure-hugging dresses or miniskirts that accentuate the slenderness and smoothness of their legs in a way that many men (especially if they're not a transvestite, as in actively trying to look like a woman) simply can't pull off. But obviously, they can wear "male" clothes too, but those can be tailored for them too in the form of jeggings or skinny jeans (yes, skinny jeans work better on men than women, ACCEPT IT, DUDES).

But of course, that's not all women are meant for, and that's not all men are meant for either. We're not in the fucking 19th century, where women were nothing more than glorified fuck-toys and men were treated as disposable work-machines. Men can be sexy, otherwise the female heterosexuality/the female sex drive and this very population wouldn't even exist, and women can be workers too.

 

[Quadocky]

Well the character model was most likely designed unintentionally or intentionally for your demographic anyway so I don't know.

I would say yes it is sexist, but not a sort of malignant sexism, rather an implied accidental sexism that is harmless but in the big picture may or may not contribute to the objectification of women. Just as long as you are not contributing to unhealthy stereotypes while playing as a female character it should not be a problem.

I actually see people who play as the opposite gender to be weirdos actually (given the shallow ideal being very common in some games which bothers me to no end). But, this isn't to say that I do not play characters based on aesthetic appearance. In fact, I think I almost always will in some way. However I avoid outright objectification and sexualization. I find there to be something wrong when 75% of female characters appear to be busty lesbians in revealing outfits. Of course I am exaggerating somewhat but if you played Champions Online this seem to be a very common theme. I personally find it creepy.

My favorite aesthetic mostly depends on the archetype of the character. If I am a wizard I make a character who wears robes and has a beard. If I am a warrior I make a character who has the capacity to wear bulky heavy armor and giant weapons. BUT I will most likely be a male first and foremost because... I am male, I like to place myself into the game.

Also for some reason I find it to be dishonest to play as a female character when I am in fact male.

 

[JimB]

With that logic, you could argue no male author is allowed to write a female character because no male has an idea of what that feels like.

Yes. Yes, you could. I know because I've seen it done. It was stupid and insulting then, and it will be stupid and insulting now if someone decides to go that route again, but you definitely could use "penis is the foundation upon which all personality is built" as an argument to say that no man can understand or write any woman at any point in the development of the human species.

 

[Subscriptism]

Anyone who says there is any underlying thing going on there is a wannabe psychologist or an idiot, you are not sexist, you are fine.

 

[Starbird]

Is this the wrong address?thought this was a gaming website,not some "oh-my-life-is-so-terrible-am-i-sexist-what-is-this-planet-women-huh-wat-listen-to-my-sob-story-best-soap-oprea-ever" website (facebook and twitter)

No, but as a new person you probably missed the recent debates on sexism in gaming. People are somewhat touchy about the subject, so the OP is merely creating a discussion to see whether people consider his behaviour to be sexist or not.

Do remember that nobody is forced to click on a topic, nor is it mandatory to reply to a topic if it doesn't appeal to you. So if you don't like it, you can always ignore it.

Yeah. I'm not really bothered by it since even if it *is* slightly sexist, it's sexist in a way that I can't really help and isn't harmful in any meaningful way.

I just though it was interesting

I've never understood playing a female character for the purpose of eye-candy. We have porn for that! Also, if looking at a male character makes you feel awkward, you probably have some degree of repressed homosexuality.

But I think Sleekit got it right. Some people, like me, make a character as an avatar of themselves, while others just make characters so that they can play the game.

Playing a male character doesn't make me feel awkward, I just prefer to look at a female. However playing a female character in a romantic setting would...and maybe *that* is latently homophobic.

 

[Starbird]

I know that sex and sexuality are at least somewhat hardwired. I'm also aware that characters in a video game are characters in a videogame. Meaning that, unlike in real life, people have a lot of choice about what their character does.

Maybe it's that I just woke up, but I'm honestly not sure what your point here is. Mind breaking it down for me?

Haha sorry, was asleep. Now I've just woken up! Okay, what I mean is that yes, in real life people don't have much choice over orientation (usually) but in a game they do.

But if you narrow it down to purely the dictionary definition you miss out on a lot of semantic context and as I said, the meaning differs from dictionary to dictionary.

This is a problem that can be solved with the application of more words. Rephrase your original question so it becomes...hm. Actually, I'm not sure what your real question is. I'm going to guess it's, "Do I actively and maliciously engage in behaviors intended to oppress and minimalize women?"

Nah. Okay, I'll admit the title was a touch misleading, but "does the fact that I like to look at girls more than boys because I find girls sexier in videogames make me sexist? And if so am I sexist in any meaningful or harmful way?" lacks some of the punch.

I have a lot of problems with your definition, since I think sexism as a discriminatory practice needs to be viewed as separate from what could be called "natural discrimination" (males finding it easier to understand/identify with other males simply due to common experiential traits).

If we're arguing about the labels to apply to degrees of sexism, then I think we still need to be able to identify the baseline from which those degrees spring.

My baseline would be something along the lines of "A pattern of behaviour or conscious thought that leads to discriminatory practice against people on the sole basis of gender".

Is using the word 'guy' or 'boy' sexist?

I'm unaware of any situation in which "guy" means anything derogatory. "Boy" can be sexist, depending on its use (also racist, but never mind).

Why is 'girl' sexist but 'guy' isn't. Also, I've never heard 'boy' in any way that could be construed as sexist.

Because I find them both neutral, pleasantly casual when discussing gender. "Woman" just sounds too...cold.

Regardless, a girl is a child. A woman is an adult. I dislike the word "woman" on etymological grounds myself, but the fact remains, an adult who is referred to as a child is one who is not wrong to feel upset by it, because it's disrespectful.

Eh, we'll have to agree to disagree here. This is actually an interesting topic on it's own though.

You know, I think that this perspective is what annoys me most of all regarding militant feminists. I have tons of friends. I have female friends. I have male friends. I have male gay friends. I even had a bisexual girlfriend for a time. *All* of them liked to ogle nice examples of what they were attracted to.

And I'd argue that if you're talking about real people being ogled, there's no issue (or at least, not inherently). What you're talking about is a fake person deliberately crafted to be sexualized and to sell that sexuality to men. The game is making the statement that women aren't to be sold to as customers, they're to be used as selling points; and when enough games and movies and TV shows do this, we create a culture where a woman is judged more harshly and more exclusively for her appearance than a man is because we've been trained to view them as objects first and people second.

So...you think that porn is sexist? Or that using sexy billboards are sexist?
Men like pretty girls. Trying to make us prefer something else...I don't know if it's even possible. Should we be taught to value other things? Of course. But I don't know how successful it will be.

Which is why I say, in the context of this argument, you cannot only focus on mental processes, since for the most part they are entirely involuntary and even natural.

It's also entirely natural for human beings with impacted bowels to jam their fingers up their butts and start rooting around until the problem is solved, because that is an animal behavior. However, we've elevated ourselves above the level of mere animals through technology and, more importantly to this discussion, though society, which means we're beholden to the standards of our neighbors.

There is a difference between a dumb conscious decision that leads to action and a totally natural ingrained preference or response. I'd say that men are wired to like certain things in a woman much the same as a person is wired into their sexual orientation.

Trust me, I grew up in Southern Africa. If you want to see *real* discrimination, give that a try. First world problems and all that.

That's true, but at the same time, comparative standards are a dodge. You don't get to pick the worst possible example of a phenomenon and then tell people they can't judge you unless you're as bad as or worse than that.

I'm not. I'm trying to put it in perspective. Ogling a pretty girl in a video game isn't discrimination by any meaningful application of the word .

Judgements involve the making of a decision. Making a decision, requiring at least some cognition and conscious choice.

And you decided to buy drinks for pretty girls.

Yes, but the actual buying of the drink is an entirely neutral action. It's neither good or bad.

Yes, but should we? This is *really* something you think needs changing? We should try to somehow teach men to be equally attracted to all people?

I...really don't think what I said can be interpreted that way, but maybe I was unclear, so let me be more explicit.

Attraction is a physiological process, and acting upon it is normal. However, once you allow that instinct to become self-justifying, you've absconded your responsibility to use your reason and you're treating people differently based on appearance. The problem here isn't liking pretty people, but rather the decision to put appearance first--which if literally what's happening, since you're choosing whom to talk to at this party based on appearance--and personality second.

Wait...hang on. So you are saying that I should treat people I'm not attracted to the same as people I'm attracted to when pursuing them with romantic intent?

Perhaps I should have been clearer in my OP. I will choose male characters in RPGs that I know will involve some sort of romance. If there was no romance, I'd probably play a female character.

Uh, what RPG has mandatory romance? Because I can't think of a situation in which it's not your choice to make fucking happen.

Even being flirted with/approached by guys as a girl would make me a little uncomfortable.

 

[TheMajesticPearofHappiness]

Thanks guys,i will be sure to go the gaming threads next time. thanks for your help (no sarcasm)

 

[IMAGinES]

Sorry if this is a bit done to death, Starbird, but I thought I'd weigh in.

Basically, when I play games like this, I tend to choose female characters. I play female avatars in WoW and Diablo...

I won't lie - it does have something to do with the 'ogle' factor. In games where I have to actually RP (say...Mass Effect) my character will be male. However if it's just an action/ARPG/MMO game - yep, my avatar is going to be a gal.

Now, most people seem okay with this. Heck, I've heard the same sentiment from a few guys. However other players (a few guys, several females) have actually had a problem with this. To whit, they consider me playing a female character simply because I find it more aesthetically pleasing than a male character to be sexist, or offensive for some other reason.

I'm genuinely curious about this. Am I missing something?

Okay, look. From what I gather, you're a male. Generally, males find females attractive. That's what we do. If we didn't, well, the human race would have found some other way of reproducing or died off. So, sure, creating an avatar that you're going to enjoy looking at, I can understand that. I agree: Curves are nice!

(Yes, I bought Bayonetta. Oddly enough, my wife occasionally wonders why I haven't finished it yet. No, it just got too hard once I got to the afterlife.)

Now. Why would some folks have an objection to it? Well (bear in mind that this is coming from a guy with no sociology background whatsoever), women have kind of had it tough out of our side of the gender gap in the last few decades / centuries.

In an ideal world (yep, sweeping generalisation here folks, my apologies in advance), one's gender would be just one of the many factors that make up an interesting person. A nice / cute / pretty / hot girl gets your attention, you take a look, you appreciate the nice warm feeling it gives you, then you either proceed to get to know the rest of her - her interests, her intellect, her strength of will, her history, her decisions, her emotional life - or you move on.

But choosing a comely avatar on visual appeal alone - it feels like *staring*. A nice / cute / pretty / hot girl gets your attention, you take a look, you appreciate the nice warm feeling it gives you, but you don't do anything more and you don't move on - you just keep looking.

In a way, it tells that girl that, to you, the most (and potentially only) important thing about her is the way her appearance makes you feel. Sadly enough, there have been and are enough men (and women) out there who've applied that priority in such a way to have made life harder for a lot of women than it otherwise could have been. And that hurt those women.

Another contributing factor: In most modern RPG-style games I've played, gender is often given *less* than equal prominence with all the other factors that make character. Take Mass Effect. Your choice of gender has such a minimal effect on the progress of the game's story - basically, Shepard's choice of love interests, if you choose to have him/her pursue a romance - that choice of gender barely matters (heck, many maintain that Jennifer Hale's voice performance of Shepard is qualitatively superior to Mark Meer's).

So maybe look at your choices from that perspective a second: When character, the stuff that makes a person more than just comely curves / chiseled abs, is absent, you go for the curves. But when character - interests, intelligence, strength of will, history, decisions, loves, hates - is given more importance, you go for a male avatar.

Can you see how it could make a woman react with, "Oh, foxtrot foxtrot sierra. Not another creep..."?

 

[Angie7F]

It is just preference.

Or you could say you are sexist. Or you can say you are actually wanting to be a woman.

In the end, its just role playing.

 

[VeryOddGamer]

You're absolutely fine. It's not really sexist (at least in any kind of offensive way).

As for me, I play male characters almost always, especially in multiplayer games, since I see my character as an extension of myself, and it makes easier for people to guess my gender and removes that nasty pronoun issue when you're talking about a player playing a character of the opposite gender, do you call the player by the player's own gender or by the character's?

Yes, I do like talking about myself and why I think I'm right in everything, why do you ask?

 

[Smooth Operator]

Well when we split the hair right down the middle then yes you are, clearly you give preference based on gender, where is the equality! You monster!

 

[JimB]

Okay, what I mean is that yes, in real life people don't have much choice over orientation (usually) but in a game they do.

Before we begin, I just want to say that I have frequented many forums in my day, and I really do appreciate how this forum provides links to the post being quoted. It's very handy for someone who just woke up and can't remember the context of the conversation.

I should probably stop writing just after waking up.

Anyway, as to what you said, I think you're missing my point. My point is that "female" is not a personality trait. Nor is "straight," nor "gay," nor "African-American." They are not traits you have to put effort into portraying, so I don't understand how they can bar a person from being able to portray someone who fits into one or more of those categories.

Why is 'girl' sexist but 'guy' isn't?

Because so far as I know, "guy" is synonymous with the noun form of "male," applicable to anyone who has a wang. Unless you're English, I guess, and you're using the word to compare someone to Guy Fawkes.

Also, I've never heard 'boy' in any way that could be construed as sexist.

You've never heard a woman describe all men as boys in order to indicate we're all immature?

So...you think that porn is sexist?

I am respectfully refusing to be engaged on this topic just because I have never known a sex worker who isn't mentally or emotionally damaged in some glaringly obvious way and therefore do not trust myself to be fair. Hell, even Jenna Jameson, the queen of porn, said in her autobiography that she was sexually abused as a child.

Or that using sexy billboards are sexist?

I'm going to take a shot here in the dark here, so, no offense intended if I'm wrong:

Yes, and my reason for saying so is that I'm willing to bet you're referring only to sexy billboards depicting women; that you didn't specify you were talking about women because it's just assumed that of course a sexy billboard will be about female models, since that is a woman's role in advertising.

Should we be taught to value other things? Of course. But I don't know how successful it will be.

Doesn't matter to me. That self-improvement is difficult is no reason not to try.

I'd say that men are wired to like certain things in a woman much the same as a person is wired into their sexual orientation.

What "certain things" are those?

I'm not. I'm trying to put it in perspective.

I know, but the purpose of this perspective you offer is to minimize the offense being given by what you're doing. You're still trying to tell people their feelings are wrong because you're not as bad as some apartheid-supporting racist.

So you are saying that I should treat people I'm not attracted to the same as people I'm attracted to when pursuing them with romantic intent?

No, I'm not telling you what you should do. You can make up your own mind, and even if you can't, I'm not interested in playing Jiminy Cricket. I'm just saying that you're participating in a system that puts a woman's appearance primary. Do with that information whatever seems appropriate to you; I won't judge you for considering physical attraction to be an important component of a romantic relationship. You're the only person who knows your own criteria for enjoying someone's company.

Even being flirted with/approached by guys as a girl would make me a little uncomfortable.

That's...a tad homophobic. Again, I'm not judging--my stomach gets physically uncomfortable at the mere thought of men kissing (or indeed doing anything to one another with their mouths, but I have no such reaction to anything they do with any other parts of their bodies, so go figure)--but yeah, the idea of a man so much as approaching you with romantic intent makes you feel threatened? Yeah.

 

[Ledan]

No, you aren't sexist. Sexism is discrimination of a real person due to their gender. This is clearly not the case. I find it ridiculous that some people would claim that you are sexist, because you enjoy starring at pixelated women's butts. You can't objectify them, because they are already objects in the game.
I thought we all agreed that killing things in video games does not make you a murderer, why the hell would this (liking to ogle pixels that look feminine) be sexist? Against whom? Do people believe that what you do in games reflects exactly what you do in real life?