Amercian arrested for Child Porn by Canadian customs who found manga on his computer.

[RobfromtheGulag]

I think some of the more serious anime podcasts had a case a year or more ago of some guy who went straight to jail [no passing go] for possession of anime porn. Keeps me feeling warm inside. Otakus be warned.

 

[Celtic_Kerr]

If there are no victims for an activity, then it isn't a crime. End of discussion.

EDIT: Yes, there's stuff like speeding or attempted murder, but those crimes are clearly capable of causing harm to someone else. This, on the other hand, has neither the cause nor the potential for harming another individual.

Dictionary.com Disagrees with you

crime   /kraɪm/ Show Spelled
[krahym] Show IPA

?noun
1. an action or an instance of negligence that is deemed injurious to the public welfare or morals or to the interests of the state and that is legally prohibited.

injurious to the morals or interets of the state... Or something legally prohibited. So it would indeed be a crime.

In alot of places, it is illegal to loiter, but there is no victim. It is still a crime

 

[Dumori]

So what constitutes Child Porn in a Manga then? I mean, just being "underage" doesnt really count, and as far as im concerned, Manga do not contain Porn. Well Ecchi perhaps (accidental boobgrab, pantyshots etc) but thats about it and even those dont really contain children

I'd wish People would start seeing the difference between Hentai (Drawn Porn) and Manga (Drawn but not Porn) already. Else you just mention you read Manga to anyone and they think you are into some sick perversion or whatever.

I agree. There's a rather large chasm between the two and since I don't see that anyone has brought this question up yet I will (excuse me if someone has and I didn't notice), what the hell was he reading? If it's any normal Manga than it could be easily resolved, but if it WAS hentai than... could they still arrest him if it wasn't CP? (those two are actual questions I would like an answer to if anyone can)
You don't see a lot of hentai that has children in it (I am, of course, excluding some of the more disturbing hentai fetishes I have unfortunate knowledge of... *twitch*) But than again if it was something from one of those...MORE Japanese genres than he didn't think that through very well, but I SERIOUSLY doubt that was the case.

A huge issue is the Japanese innocence and youth are sexually attractive culture. What you get are youthful looking characters in a lot of Manga and other drawn art as well. But the actual perceived age in these drawings can have huge gaps between viewers.

The two questions you raise are the real kickers though.

 

[EllEzDee]

He had no photo's only manga.

It's still child porn, and it sucks to be him when his parents find out and inevitably take a look in the basement he inhabits.

Even the US with their free speech laws

Free speech exists the world over, besides in places where the fear of the oversized military will keep you in your place.

 

[Celtic_Kerr]

You're still not understanding how debate works.
You're still not presenting any arguments. All you are doing is saying "Thinking like this is bad, and you should be put in jail if you think this way because I say so dammit!"
You are not defending your position with reason or facts.

You think we're debating? LOL.

I'm sorry, but I am stating fact. Society rejects being attracted to a prepubescent child as wrong. This is fact. Thinking otherwise is just denying reality. I'm not making arguments to your "points" (lol again) because the fact that this shit is wrong doesn't need to be argued to people who have common sense and decency. They accept it as the fact that it is.

Heh, debating. that would be like if I were saying the earth is round and you wanted to be like NUH UH!! YOU CANT MAKE ME THINK THAT JUST BECAUSE YOU SAY SO!!! lol

Debate.... ROFL.

It seems you're not understanding what we are discussing.
[sub]The escapist is intended for discussion and debate. If you can't do that, you're not going to last for very long here.[/sub]
I am not arguing that society doesn't see being attracted to children as wrong. That's fact: At the moment, society's general consensus is that being attracted to children is bad.

What I'm arguing is that you shouldn't be put in jail because an aspect of your person is considered "bad", so long as you do not act upon this aspect (i.e. do not touch children inappropriately).

Wow... at the moment?? Way to go Creeper... what, are you fighting for that change??

Probably being put in jail is the best thing that could happen to this wannabe pedophile. Maybe he'll get help behind bars. Where society wins by putting him away for breaking a law (surprised that this has to be argued) aside from upholding the rule of law of course, is that this guy has been found with materials that indicate that he is attracted to young children. Society is correct to put a big neon sign on this guy to make sure he is never put in a position to hurt children, I put the children before this guys desires.

I don't think he's being a creeper so much as stating that in the olden days (Iunno... 1800s or something, somewhere around there) it was common for men to marry incredibly youn, almost pre-pubescent girls n the hopes of bearing as meany children over as great a time as they could.

Happened in Canada. people younger than 16 would marry 16-20+ year olds.

Yes, our laws have adapted to view this as wrong, so we see it as wrong at the moment. Don't pick a fight.

And to break a law is to perform an action that breaks the law. I will admit having child pornography is an act that breaks the law. However, Manga is not child pornography and terefore he did nothing wrong and doesn't deserve jail time

 

[Jonluw]

You're still not understanding how debate works.
You're still not presenting any arguments. All you are doing is saying "Thinking like this is bad, and you should be put in jail if you think this way because I say so dammit!"
You are not defending your position with reason or facts.

You think we're debating? LOL.

I'm sorry, but I am stating fact. Society rejects being attracted to a prepubescent child as wrong. This is fact. Thinking otherwise is just denying reality. I'm not making arguments to your "points" (lol again) because the fact that this shit is wrong doesn't need to be argued to people who have common sense and decency. They accept it as the fact that it is.

Heh, debating. that would be like if I were saying the earth is round and you wanted to be like NUH UH!! YOU CANT MAKE ME THINK THAT JUST BECAUSE YOU SAY SO!!! lol

Debate.... ROFL.

It seems you're not understanding what we are discussing.
[sub]The escapist is intended for discussion and debate. If you can't do that, you're not going to last for very long here.[/sub]
I am not arguing that society doesn't see being attracted to children as wrong. That's fact: At the moment, society's general consensus is that being attracted to children is bad.

What I'm arguing is that you shouldn't be put in jail because an aspect of your person is considered "bad", so long as you do not act upon this aspect (i.e. do not touch children inappropriately).

Wow... at the moment?? Way to go Creeper... what, are you fighting for that change??

Indeed there could emerge/was/might have been societies where paedohpilia was/will be accepted. Ancient Greece has a bit of a reputation for sex between boys and men.

Probably being put in jail is the best thing that could happen to this wannabe pedophile.

Absolutely not the case.

Maybe he'll get help behind bars. Where society wins by putting him away for breaking a law

There is no law against being attracted to children.
[sub]You are confusing this with the law against having sexual relations with children, which is indeed sound; but it does not include that being attracted to children is illegal, in the same way that laws agains rape do not include that being attracted to women is illegal[/sub]

(surprised that this has to be argued) aside from upholding the rule of law of course, is that this guy has been found with materials that indicate that he is attracted to young children. Society is correct to put a big neon sign on this guy to make sure he is never put in a position to hurt children, I put the children before this guys desires.

In other words, you are advocating putting a person who has never hurt and has no intention to hurt anyone in jail. Putting him in jail merely for the thoughts inside his head. As I've said before: In your fictional dictatorship, that might be okay, but in the civilized world where we other people live, that goes against basic democratic principles.

 

[PurplePlatypus]

This sort of thing makes me really uncomfortable. Mostly because it undermines why child porn is illegal in the first place. It?s not the very idea of it; it?s about the harm it causes to real people. It?s would be the equivalent of charging someone for murder because they killed an NPC.

 

[BlindTom]

I just looked at my shelf and saw a copy of Nabokov's Lolita. Should I turn myself in or go out in a blaze of glory?

That book was actually an example given when the law was passed about something that would be considered valid under the Artistic Merit rules.

Oh wow this is interesting! On what grounds was it considered to have artistic merit? Because Nabokov was famous? Because it was well written? Because it ultimately portrayed the acts in question as at least partially morally reprehensible?

 

[LittlePineWeasel]

snip

And to break a law is to perform an action that breaks the law. I will admit having child pornography is an act that breaks the law. However, Manga is not child pornography and terefore he did nothing wrong and doesn't deserve jail time

Manga depicting children in sexual context is child porn, at least according to Canadian law. So if he had it, and hes breaking that law, he deserves jail time and to register as an offender.

 

[Celtic_Kerr]

snip

And to break a law is to perform an action that breaks the law. I will admit having child pornography is an act that breaks the law. However, Manga is not child pornography and terefore he did nothing wrong and doesn't deserve jail time

Manga depicting children in sexual context is child porn, at least according to Canadian law. So if he had it, and hes breaking that law, he deserves jail time and to register as an offender.

Except that hentai is sexually graphic japanese anime. Manga is not. Manga is ususaly romantic in nature.

 

[GothmogII]

We aren't arguing that someone being interested in young children is healthy or typical, rather we are saying we don't think a few icky drawings are worth sending someone to jail and blighting their life with a child porn charge over it. Denying them lolicon won't make them any less attracted to children. When there are only a limited number of jail cells around, leave them free for the real predators: those who molest real living children, to be stored in.

Nope, arrest them too. Having Lolicon on your person is enough to bring suspicion of having such attractions. Its well within societies rights, if you're breaking the law, to incarcerate you, hell, it might even be good for him, maybe just maybe he might get some help. I hear that occasionally sex offenders don't immediately become recidivists upon release so maybe our American programmer will get some help seeing the error of his attractions while he's behind bars. As far as blighting their life with a child porn charge, probably something he should have thought of before possessing images that could even be remotely confused with child porn.

Not that I believe that. I don't think for one min that Canadian authorities would level that charge over something harmless like ramna or whatever. I could care less about this guys blighting of his life... good for society to know he has such attractions, that way he can be kept separate from positions in life that would give him access to children.

That's actually quite a leap you've made there...come to think of it, half the posts in here are either assuming his guilt or innocence without a: Having any idea about the nature of the material in his possession other than that it was -deemed- child porn, or b: Any knowledge of the man himself that would indicate that he is, you know actually a paedophile. It is a presumption on your part that he is.

Additionally, and to re-iterate until in seeps in: No-one is saying child porn is a good thing. No-one is saying that the people who view it, or who have an attraction to children in that manner are either well, nor that they shouldn't be either locked up -if- they act on those proclivities.

The main crux of the argument (at least from my point of view) is: Is it -RIGHT- for the authorities to enforce these kind of laws, even when it has not been established that this kind of material provides either impetus to commit abuse of a child, nor provide a direct and demonstrable harm to society at large?

It's defending the principle of the matter, not the subject. You've made it clear that you find this kind of material offensive, and morally repugnant to an extreme degree, and you know, I agree with that. What I do not agree with, despite my better judgement is the illegality of such material, and the subsequent vulnerability to legal repercussions to such persons who may or may not be paedophiles, but whom gain enjoyment out of something, that again, while disgusting, does not have any readily apparent consequences with regards to pushing such people toward acting out.

I'm curious, under your purview, would you have The Catcher in the Rye banned merely because Chapman shot Lennon, and his obsession with that book? Or Nabokov's 'Lolita', because of the themes it explores?

Go read this please: http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/12/why-defend-freedom-of-icky-speech.html

Captcha: single divides

 

[LittlePineWeasel]

snip,

In other words, you are advocating putting a person who has never hurt and has no intention to hurt anyone in jail. Putting him in jail merely for the thoughts inside his head. As I've said before: In your fictional dictatorship, that might be okay, but in the civilized world where we other people live, that goes against basic democratic principles.

No, those aren't just other words, they are YOUR words. How about you stick to saying what you're saying and leave saying what I'm saying to me, k thanks, tiger.

What I am saying is that this guy is accused of breaking a child porn law. If he broke it he deserves to go to jail FOR THAT. He's not going to jail for having a though, hes going to jail for breaking a law. Also, if the law that he broke indicates that he has an unhealthy and unacceptable (not just me saying that, society as a whole agrees) attraction to prepubescent girls. Society has every right to try to help him and every right to also label him as such for the protection of societies children.

So allow me to make it more clear for you.

If found guilty of breaking a law he will get jail time, not for whats in his head, but for breaking a law. The law that he broke indicates that he has a problem in his head, and it is well within rights for society to take measures to ensure that he is not placed in a position where the problems in his head could become problems for a real child.

 

[kalt_13]

This was posted today on a webcomic I read

People should know better than to have those images by now, this isn't the first time its come up in the news.

 

[LittlePineWeasel]

Except that hentai is sexually graphic japanese anime. Manga is not. Manga is ususaly romantic in nature.

This has very little to do with the actual crux of this issue. If he had hentai, or lolicon, or any other depiction of underage children in sexual contexts hes probably breaking that law... whatever its called. Feel better?

 

[Celtic_Kerr]

Except that hentai is sexually graphic japanese anime. Manga is not. Manga is ususaly romantic in nature.

This has very little to do with the actual crux of this issue. If he had hentai, or lolicon, or any other depiction of underage children in sexual contexts hes probably breaking that law... whatever its called. Feel better?

If he had underaged Hentai, I might actually conceed to th fact tat he's carrying child pornography and thereofre breaking the law, but Manga does not have pornographic or sexual scenes, and therefore is not porn nor child pornography.

THerefore you cannot say he wascarrying child porn, therefore you cannot say he is into child porn, and therefore your entire defense shattered. Alot of Manga books actually have 18 year olds as te main characters, but the animation style makes the people appear much younger.

If he was carrying Hentai, that is carrying child pornography. He was carrying Manga. That is not child pornography. It is not "Whatever it is called" or whatever I'm calling it, they are two different deffinitions that make a difference

 

[Twilight_guy]

Well look up the laws on the issue. I don't know about the Canadian laws but the laws in the US allow people to have those images. If the Canadian laws don't then he goofed by not checking beforehand. I know it seems dumb to have to look up laws like that but ignorance of the law is not a valid defense. If he broke a law, he broke a law. The legitimacy of the law is not the issue only whether or not he broke it.

 

[Aesir23]

snip

And to break a law is to perform an action that breaks the law. I will admit having child pornography is an act that breaks the law. However, Manga is not child pornography and terefore he did nothing wrong and doesn't deserve jail time

Manga depicting children in sexual context is child porn, at least according to Canadian law. So if he had it, and hes breaking that law, he deserves jail time and to register as an offender.

It's good to see someone who has some sense.

It's rather futile to see everyone here arguing over whether manga, Loli, etc counts as child pornography. If they oppose the law so much then they should either do something about it or look up the law to see what it entails rather than whine pointlessly.

The fact of the matter is, the bugger broke the law and should be punished according to the law. I'm not saying that all laws are infallible, but they're put in place for a reason.

 

[DanDanikov]

I would have expected it to be fairly obvious if he was somehow forced to give up encryption keys and they dug out a treasure trove of intentionally hidden images. If he's openly carrying a collection of comics that have borderline depictions that aren't the majority of the content, he deserves a rap on the knuckles and the material confiscated at best. Hardly worth hard time and harsh treatment.

If it really is dubious either way, then it makes sense to hold him and process the evidence and go to court. The only thing that worries me is there is a very strong reflex against these kinds of crimes and that people err on the side of catching a few innocents in an over-wide net.