Amercian arrested for Child Porn by Canadian customs who found manga on his computer.

[joemegson94]

That kind of stuff is fucked up, but if they're just drawings they don't harm anyone, and arguably shouldn't be illegal.

 

[Cheezeypoofs]

Furthermore, Japan's age of consent is 13. The vast majority of what would be considered child pornography is perfectly legal according to Japanese laws, and might not even be considered lolicon.

Wrong. Very, very wrong. Japan still requires 18 years of older for pornography purposes, thus making videos and pictures of real males/females illegal if they are minors.

My source was wikipedia so I'll concede the point to you.

 

[StygianInq]

But here's the thing, it's not child porn. Child pornography refers to actual recordings or images of actual children.

Under Canadian law, you are wrong. I've seen a lot of comments like this in the thread that seem to assume Canadian law is the same as what you might have in say, the US. It's not.

Child porn in Canada includes the visual and/or written representation or suggestion of sexual activity or sexuality by persons (real or imaginary) who are, or are depicted as being, under the age of 18 years of age.

So yes, that means you can be arrested for kiddy porn for a text based story with made up characters that never happened. You can be arrested for a porno with an 21 year old porn start who is dressed up and pretending to be a 16 year old. You can be arrested for a drawn image of a suggestive nature where no real kids were involved. You can be arrested without any depictions of actual sex, the images just have to appear to be "sexual in nature".

It's probably one of the most incompassing laws out there.

There is an "artistic merit" exception to the law, but that is an affirmative defense, meaning you have to PROVE to the court that it has broad artistic value before the defense can be introduced.

Convictions specifically for manga images have been upheld right to the Supreme Court.

On the issue of "why did they search this guy", he crossed a border. It is routine to randomly search people at border crossings and when crossing into ANY country it is important for you to know that you generally are considered under most country's laws to have consented to anything up to full body cavity searches when you cross that custom's line. Border guards often have much more authority (and sadly less training) than your average police officer.

Well said having taken law and living in Canada, I can tell you that you are right on the money. It should be mentioned that if anything that is considered Child Pornography is brought Canada, you are guilty of a crime for importing. Again, I think it had been said well above that he should have been aware of the laws of the country to which he was travelling, and if in his ignorance he didn't, then it falls on him.

As for the comments about since when do Customs have the right to go through your laptop, that was a process started by the American government checking laptops and iPods of (especially) Canadians going south for vacation searching for copyrighted material a couple of years ago when the Canadian Government refused to follow the US Copyright Law Reform. Since the US Government refused to back off, the Canadian side now does it too but not necessarily for every single person.

Lastly, I think that it needs to be mentioned that nowhere in the story links that people have posted has it actually said what it was he was caught with, we don't know whether it was manga or hentai or ecchi, etc. So it is kind of pointless to speculate. The fact that they use the term 'Manga' doesn't mean it is not hentai. Hentai is a subtype of manga and has specific connotations that have been amply expressed here already. It would be a foolish move for an organization wanting to garner sympathy for their case to use the pejorative term rather than a more general term that is more neutral.

 

[TheLoneBeet]

In Canada, Loli is defined as CP. This means that one can be arrested for this. It's happened several times, in fact. This is just another example of the "learn the laws of other places before you go, and don't bring porn with you" rule.

Damn I was gonna say this. Except without the example, which I really enjoyed. So I guess it's a good thing you beat me to it.

 

[Steppin Razor]

Guess what I just posted. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.297134-Amercian-arrested-for-Child-Porn-by-Canadian-customs-who-found-manga-on-his-computer?page=5#11770497] It applies to this too.

So you skimmed my post? Here's what I said:

It's an area that is desperately in need of research so we can get a clear picture and take the appropriate steps, whether that be banning or regulating it if there is a proven link, or decriminalising it if the danger, if any, is shown to be miniscule. I doubt that there will be a link found, but the possibility exists and we just. don't. know. And until we do know, laws like the ones in Canada will continue to be passed.

I never said we should pass laws about it yet. I even said that I doubted that a clear link will be found between lolicon and child molestation. What I did say is that we don't know and we should be making an effort to find out.

 

[Steppin Razor]

My source was wikipedia so I'll concede the point to you.

Well, Wikipedia does have it right. The legal age of consent in Japan according to national law is 13. Prefectural law tends to override it, though, so in a lot of places over there the age of consent still is 18.

They brought their child pornography laws into line with the West in the late 90's and early 2000's though, so anything under 18 will get you in a lot of trouble.

 

[TheLaofKazi]

Hold the fuck on. Why were they allowed to search his laptop? I'm surprised that question isn't being asked.

I honestly don't think the man did anything wrong, whether the manga on his computer was loli or not. If he actually had media on his computer of real child abuse with real children, then I don't think there is a problem. I hate to sound arrogant here, but pretty much every opposing opinion I've heard on this issue is just based out of ignorance and a knee-jerk reaction to fictional child pornography (ewww that's sick and it's wrong!).

Yes, he may have technically broken the law, but one really can't say for sure yet. Child pornography laws and how they apply to fictional content is a pretty controversial and muggy issue. At least here in the states they are, I'm not quite sure about Canada.

*Snip*

You laid everything out perfectly my good sir, thank you.

 

[StygianInq]

Hold the fuck on. Why were they allowed to search his laptop? I'm surprised that question isn't being asked.

I honestly don't think the man did anything wrong, whether the manga on his computer was loli or not. If he actually had media on his computer of real child abuse with real children, then I don't think there is a problem. I hate to sound arrogant here, but pretty much every opposing opinion I've heard on this issue is just based out of ignorance and a knee-jerk reaction to fictional child pornography (ewww that's sick and it's wrong!).

Yes, he may have technically broken the law, but one really can't say for sure yet. Child pornography laws and how they apply to fictional content is a pretty controversial and muggy issue.

As for the laptop issue, a couple of people mentioned it earlier and I gave the long explanation above. For the short explanation, the US started doing it to combat copyright infringement and to exercise the Patriot Act and the Canadian Government was pressured into doing that by the US when the US wouldn't back off the searches.

 

[Et3rnalLegend64]

How did they find the stuff on his laptop, that means that the customs guy had to take it, turn it on and hunt through all his files, and he did this just on a whim? I never really fly internationally but doesn't that seem a bit excessive?

Well, you took my answer. They don't do that for every electronic that passes through, do they? Must create one hell of a line.

It's a tough one... On one hand, they are JUST drawings and there is no intent to cause harm to anybody and no body is harmed.

On the other, it has been known to be a starting point for paedophiles. Not hentai, necessarily, but eventually the fake images will no longer satisfy the person's urges and can lead to real paedophilia.

I'll have to ask you how much you impact you meant to fall on the "it has been known to be" line, because this seems rather close to a slippery slope argument. If it applies to anyone, I would believe that the person was already mentally unhealthy instead of saying he could no longer be satisfied. Slippery slope arguments are based on exaggerated possibility and tend to unnecessarily demonize a lot of things. This is nothing against you of course and I do note how you also acknowledge the idea that no one is hurt. I just felt that I had to point this out.

 

[Thumper17]

I'm going to need to actually see the manga in question to make a decision on this one way or another.

Some of that younger kid upskirt stuff shouldn't be read anyways. Kind of creepy.

Also, their must have been a reason for them to search the laptop. My American GF came to visit me in Canada earlier this month and never had her lap top looked at. He was probably seen looking at some stuff like that on his iPod or something earlier and had his stuff investigated.

 

[StygianInq]

How did they find the stuff on his laptop, that means that the customs guy had to take it, turn it on and hunt through all his files, and he did this just on a whim? I never really fly internationally but doesn't that seem a bit excessive?

Well, you took my answer. They don't do that for every electronic that passes through, do they. Must create one hell of a line.

They do the in-depth searches more frequently at border crossings than in airports. For airports, they usually just make you boot up your laptop to make sure it is either a PC or a Mac and turn on your iPod or cell phone to make sure it isn't a remote for explosives or something. I have Linux on my laptop and I had a lot of explaining to do when my logon screen didn't say 'Windows' when I booted it up at the airport.

 

[TheLaofKazi]

As for the laptop issue, a couple of people mentioned it earlier and I gave the long explanation above. For the short explanation, the US started doing it to combat copyright infringement and to exercise the Patriot Act and the Canadian Government was pressured into doing that by the US when the US wouldn't back off the searches.

Really? I thought this was what ACTA was going to allow for if it got passed (and to my knowledge it didn't yet).

Well, I'm just a tad more angry at crap like this then I was before, I guess.

 

[5mj7R7yf4Dwr3gdZyyu9PeGNwYjlNrjzuh3iTXQG]

I never said we should pass laws about it yet. I even said that I doubted that a clear link will be found between lolicon and child molestation. What I did say is that we don't know and we should be making an effort to find out.

And what I said was that the burden of proof is supposed to be on those who are saying loli is dangerous.

Granted, the situation's been worsened by a situation in which a reality show [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_pornography_laws_in_the_United_States#Further_developments] of baiting so called child predators, in reality old guys who are interested in slightly underaged teens, a paraphilia (if you can call it that) known as hebephilia, and considered by the psychiatric sector as normal in the general population.[/footnote], which does push us to try to pass inappropriate laws, and granted, our scientific community has been weakened by an industry that produces pseudoscience in order to push specific agendas (criminalization of video games and the debunking of climate change being two). So it's not necessarily a bad idea (in most cases) to run legitimate scientific studies even before someone tries to pass a law, albiet one can never cover all bases.

As it is, right now, Poser [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_cartoon_pornography_depicting_minors#United_States] porn) has if anything, a reductive effect on the rate of child sexual abuse.

But there are also a lot of activist forces at work that are so repelled by the existance of Loli and of pedophiles (active or otherwise), that they will stop at nothing to criminalize both, even at the expense of common freedoms.

238U.

 

[Alexnader]

I think this just brings the question of "what is porn"?

"Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more"

 

[5mj7R7yf4Dwr3gdZyyu9PeGNwYjlNrjzuh3iTXQG]

On the other, it has been known to be a starting point for paedophiles. Not hentai, necessarily, but eventually the fake images will no longer satisfy the person's urges and can lead to real paedophilia.

Is that like marijuana is known to be a gateway drug to (crack) cocaine and (black tar) heroin? and Cinemax softcore porn is known to be a stepping stone towards hardcore porn which is known to be a stepping stone to street rape?[footnote]Incidentally, Naomi Wolf [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi_Wolf] rescinded her 20th century statement that porn consumption leads to rape during the Bush era to, instead say porn consumption leads to sexual lethargy, namely that now men rape less, but expect their girlfriends to actually perform in bed, and that it's no longer adequate to merely show up for a date. Indeed, porn consumption has skyrocketed. Violent sex crime has plummeted. Not that they necessarily correlate.[/footnote]

Interestingly, child sexual abuse actually has one of the lowest recidivism rates of all crime, certainly of the lowest of all violent crimes. It turns out that most aware pedos actually like kids and would rather not get their rocks off than cause one harm. Also pedophiles are one of the most responsive criminal groups to rehabilitation through psychotherapy.

I'm pretty sure there's a lot of misinformation out there on the simple basis that people are terrified for their children, and instinctively want to hunt down and kill all them-there pedos, regardless of what stats actually indicate, or what a rational, civilized response should be.

238U.

 

[Hafnium]

I'm seriously disgusted by that article. The customs officer searched his laptop, iPad and phone, just because? Then he sees a drawing of a girl/woman in a skirt and calls it child porn, fuck those guys. If it was sexual/hentai with children then they had a point, but just manga?

Oh, and the defense is estimated at 150.000 canadian dollars, good thing he has backup, how could anyone fight that without organizations like CBLDF?

 

[Rems]

A few thoughts:

First of all why were customs going through this guy's laptop? I mean looking at it and checking it out sure, but actually turning it on and going through his files, what provoked that?

Secondly was this manga confused for child porn, or actual child porn done in a manga style (so essentially lolicon hentai).

It a tough question. On the one hand yes no one was actually harmed by this, on the other it is illegal to posses such material under Canadian law. And it is certainly creepy to be carrying child porn around with you (providing it was in fact and not a misunderstanding).

I would like to know what exactly these images were before passing any judgment. Anyone got any updates on the story?

 

[Plurralbles]

This should moreso be a case of just what the fuck is searchable at teh border.

Searching a laptop is bullshit. Absolute bullshit.

Sorry if he committed the unwritten crime of wanting to visit canada.

 

[lionsprey]

We still don't know the most important thing here. What manga was it?