American comics should take a pointer from manga?

[Tsukuyomi]

Hrm....you know, I normally try to be polite and everything, but right about now I'm gonna call things as I see them. and right now I see that likely at least a few people in this topic have NOT read a comic in the last few years, possibly if EVER. I'm seeing alot of people harp on about the inherent problems in western comics which, while they are problems, are NOT as awful and as all-consuming as some make them out to be. Heck, some don't even EXIST anymore. Let's go through a few, shall we?

1: Multiverse Theory. I understand the gripe on this. Really I do. It's outsider-unfriendly, plain and simple. But...frankly? That's kind of WHY the industry ditched it. Marvel still clings to it with Ultimate Universe, but for the most part it's not really an issue at all. Honestly? All that headache-inducing crap only happens during, as DC calls it, a Crisis. Which, frankly, you DON'T NEED TO READ ANY OF THE CRISES. Period. They're ridiculous, they're mind-breaking, they're absurd, but that's why they don't happen very often.

2: Continuity. Again, I can understand. I entered comics about two years ago. I started reading Green Lantern and other titles just before the kickoff of things like Sinestro Corps. War and Blackest Night. Was it difficult to get a grasp on what was going on? Somewhat. But really? There's two things that helped: one was my local comic shop itself. What do you think the clerks do when they're not stocking or cleaning or doing actual work? Yeah. Reading. They're fans too. and, like with any geek, unless you run into one who's a jerk, they're usually happy to give you a condensed version of what's going on in a comic series. Or, if the story is a bit too big, they'll point you to the trades and things you should read to get a grasp on things. The second? Internet, kids. Wikipedia has plot synopses on major events that go on. It really doesn't take that long to get up to speed if you're really interested. An hour of research or less can probably get you up and running on what's going on.

3: The beauty of western comics is that, if you don't wanna read a particular character's story...you...really don't have to. When you pick up a copy of Shonen Jump, you're paying for EVERYTHING in there. The Manga you read, the Manga you don't read, the Manga you may not even LIKE. I pick up a copy of say....Future Foundation. Oh look! There's Thor! What's he here for? Oh, just that. I can read more if I follow Thor's own line? Naaah. That can stay on the shelf. The story still makes sense. I have no real need to know what that crazy Space Viking is up to.

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I could continue going on a tirade, but that's just wasting everyone's time. My point is that, like others have mentioned, Manga has it's definite downsides just like western comics do. I've read both. I have both sitting on my shelves. and I think that, having read both, you really do get a better understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of both. This topic smacks of alot of people who haven't read western comics much, or lately, or at all.

Not saying anyone is right, nor that anyone is wrong. I see the complaints of both sides as valid, really I do. But I am seriously against anyone passing judgement on western comics without having done their homework on them. Reading what's going on now and comparing it to any preconceptions or what they've experienced in the past. Alot of us read comics in the 90's. and MovieBob will tell you: the 90's sucked. They sucked HARDCORE for western comics. ALOT of people got bad tastes in their mouth from 90's comics, and from a storytelling/continuity standpoint, I think the industry is STILL recovering. DON'T let that color your opinions. DON'T let preconceptions or bad tastes color your opinions. Give both sides a chance before you go running to Japan and asking them to take over writing Spider-Man. They've tried that....not good....

 

[Tdc2182]

Good God, no.

Is my thought too.

If anything, Japanese Manga could learn a thing or two from American comics.

I generally love the art style, I just can't stand the story-lines and most of the protagonists.

 

[Stalydan]

Good God, no.

Is my thought too.

If anything, Japanese Manga could learn a thing or two from American comics.

I generally love the art style, I just can't stand the story-lines and most of the protagonists.

I like protagonists that fight to protect others but aren't obnoxious "Ha dee ha ha ha!" types. It's why I like Ichigo in the latest Bleach chapters, he's been serious about just trying to save his friends and not all jokey in the middle of fights (like quite a lot of Shonen characters).

 

[V8 Ninja]

I believe what you mean is American Superhero comics, so that's what I'm going to assume.

You nailed down the continuity part, but I think that's only half the issue. The problem is that we, as readers, are getting little content per issue of a comic. When you look at it, generally the average comic is 32 pages, with 6-8 of those pages being used for ads and such. Manga, on the other hand, usually comes with 150-175+ pages per "Issue", and almost all of those pages are used for story/character development and/or action. To be honest, I would rather wait a month for a 100+ pages of an ad-free comic than wait a week for around 32 pages of a slightly ad-endorsed comic.

EDIT: Hey, guys, I think this is more about cultural choices on how comics are "Packaged", and NOT about stylistic choices and that other stuff.

 

[theevilgenius60]

Stay away from my comics with your manga. I've already seen the travesty done to Spider-Man(EYES! on the suit? Why?)I could just imagine what they would do to Wolverine or Batman(if they haven't already):shudders:

 

[Kinokohatake]

Um not sure what you are talking about. Manga sales in the US has fallen by double digits each year since 2008. Where as comic book sales have actually gone up a small amount the last few years thanks to the films being made. Now I like both comics and manga but the mind set behind both of them are completely different.

 

[WolfThomas]

Its no secret that american comics are getting steadily less popular and are selling less and less every year and I ask why is this? If you take a look at anime/ manga the genere as a whole is getting more and more popular.

Spoiler: Sorry it is not that I don't believe you but...

Also there are already great western comics that have a start finish and end. Hell most of the stuff vertigo has put out, Preacher, Transmetropolitan, The Invisbles, Sandman, V for Vendetta etc. There are brilliant comics that are one off events like Pride of Baghdad or Kill Your Boyfriend.

But the biggest core element of Western comics are that there is an ongoing story that never ends, rather than restrict that the big companies should rather do the opposite just let time flow. Have Batman eventually retire because he's too old. Have the children of X-men take up the mantle of their parents. Have a universe that actually grows and ages. And if you want a Bruce Wayne-Batman story well it's not as if the old great stories cease to exist once Damien takes the job.

 

[Saelune]

Well, also helps Manga that they are more integrated in Japanese society than comics are in ours. I figure it like this...why ruin comic book fans comics? I dont think Manga lovers would want comic books people to force their ways on them.

 

[Turigamot]

As far as I can tell, western comics have been making a comeback due to greater media exposure and the film adaptations.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

In other words, in manga they know when to quit. ...er mostly.

 

[Axelhander]

Manga, like anime, falls apart under thoughtful scrutiny. Its popularity doesn't change its (lack of) quality. So maybe, in a bid to gain popularity, American comics could adopt manga-isms, but wave bye bye to quality.

Also, American comics borrowing Japanese comic conventions (both art and story) isn't new.

 

[Dr. Danger]

Wait, wait ... so you want american comics to put in more mellow-drama and make all the characters basically the same person with different hair??

Or have 80% of the content focus around fifteen year olds?

I think American Superhero comics are fine the way they are.

 

[Craorach]

Marvel and DC BOTH need to reset their continuity, but actually do it, and then start on NEW stories and NEW characters.

Take Spiderman for example: He started as a teenager still in school, then after two years left for college, then after that graduated and moved on. Then he entered a stasis which he has been stuck in for 30 years -- by rights he should now be in his fifties and yet he is still a 20-something guy, fighting the same old villains on an endless loop:
Yes, the green Goblin and the Black Cat are good, but jesus they are OLD NEWS now.

What western comics needs is some originality.

Oh, and also none of this alternate universes stuff. Having "What if" scenarios is fine, so long as its made clear that they aren't canon -- there should be one universe that is obviously made canon, and it shouldn't just be one in a list of many.


The problem with western comics isn't continuity, its stagnation.

I have to agree with this post.

I've always wanted to read comics, and always been put off by two things..

1. Complex plots within plots within plots, constantly being told to refer back to another issue or that something has been ret-coned.

2. The issues are so short that little story is given in each one, hardback collections are not created often enough.

I was really hopeful of the alleged DC reboot but it seems more and more like, rather than restarting all the stories, they are trying to do "middle ground" it so as not to alienate existing fans. They really need to take a close look and decide if existing fans who will stop reading, outnumber potential fans who are intimidated by decades of convoluted plot lines.

 

[docSpitfire]

I was really hopeful of the alleged DC reboot but it seems more and more like, rather than restarting all the stories, they are trying to do "middle ground" it so as not to alienate existing fans. They really need to take a close look and decide if existing fans who will stop reading, outnumber potential fans who are intimidated by decades of convoluted plot lines.

Exactly

A reboot upsets long time fans.
The convoluted stories prevents new or returning fans from reading.

Marvel's Ultimate Universe did pretty well from what I've heard.
Long term fans had a choice whether to get on board or not, and new fans had a place to start where they didn't have to know years of convoluted back story.

DC's reboot manages to take the worst part of both options.

 

[Puzzlenaut]

Something else Manga does that western comics dont: Make themselves available and affordable.

Here, a single comic of about 20 pages can cost you maybe £1.50, which doesn't sound like much but when you take into consideration the fact that in one single comic barely anything happens, its like going to watch a movie and paying a fiver every five minutes for the next installment.

Back in the day, and even up to the 90's, comics were dirt cheap -- a comic that you would finish reading in 10 minutes would cost you what would now be 30p, and yet we are paying 5 times that -- I understand that the quality of has increased massively this decade -- old comics look childish by comparison -- however I feel this really rather hefty price is one major thing turning off potential readers -- Manga, by comparison, costs practically nothing, and comics tend to come in bundles (the most well known being Shonen Jump)

One more point: Availability.
I'm not sure if its the same for everyone else, but where I live, western comics aren't sold in newsagents and corner shops any more, nor in supermarkets or kiosks are anywhere else except comic-book stores. Its major effort to get hold of a comic if you have to find a comic book store (at least for most people). They need to get themselves back on shelves everywhere and find their market again, as manga does -- in Japan, manga is sold EVERYWHERE.

 

[Tsukuyomi]

OK, OK, OK!

If I can remind you all of something... In the U.S. mainstream comics fall under the cold, "steely" eye of the Comic Authority.

Japanese comics DON'T; They hold the same rank as an independent comic or graphic novel.
That's why they (manga) can get away with the excessive sex and violence.

Before the 50's you could get the SAME quality "content" in a American comic, that you could find in almost any manga.

Here's what happened next.

Um...you're kinda out of the loop, champ. The Code is GONE. It's been gone for awhile now if I recall correctly. Certain titles, mainly those aimed at kids like Archie and whatnot, still basically stick to it since it is a good guideline for producing kid-friendly stuff. But the Code has been obsolete for years and I believe it died officially a year or so ago. Either way I haven't seen that little badge on ANY of today's comics. It's just a relic.

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Something else Manga does that western comics dont: Make themselves available and affordable.

Here, a single comic of about 20 pages can cost you maybe £1.50, which doesn't sound like much but when you take into consideration the fact that in one single comic barely anything happens, its like going to watch a movie and paying a fiver every five minutes for the next installment.

Back in the day, and even up to the 90's, comics were dirt cheap -- a comic that you would finish reading in 10 minutes would cost you what would now be 30p, and yet we are paying 5 times that -- I understand that the quality of has increased massively this decade -- old comics look childish by comparison -- however I feel this really rather hefty price is one major thing turning off potential readers -- Manga, by comparison, costs practically nothing, and comics tend to come in bundles (the most well known being Shonen Jump)

One more point: Availability.
I'm not sure if its the same for everyone else, but where I live, western comics aren't sold in newsagents and corner shops any more, nor in supermarkets or kiosks are anywhere else except comic-book stores. Its major effort to get hold of a comic if you have to find a comic book store (at least for most people). They need to get themselves back on shelves everywhere and find their market again, as manga does -- in Japan, manga is sold EVERYWHERE.

I've found the same thing about availability. You'd think that at least with the films, we'd see the Big Two making more of a push to get those particular books out on more stands and shelves. However at least for where I live here in the U.S., it's almost just as rare that I find a copy of Shonen Jump at the local Supermarket.

As for what one actually gets out of an issue...well, it really depends on what you're reading. Some issues can be satisfying, some aren't. Depends on the story and depends on the writer. Bundles are great, but again, you pay for not only what you WANT to read, but you're also forced to pay for what you DON'T. When I picked up Shonen Jump I was reading Naruto and Bleach, but I had no interest in Slam Dunk, Gintama, One Piece, etc. Not to mention all the little articles and things they threw in. I paid the price of effectively two or three western comics for two chapters and alot of crap I didn't want and had no real interest in.

Now sure, you can always wait and by the actual published softcover volumes, and in theory those are a great deal. But as someone pointed out: Manga has filler. and depending on your series? it has ALOT of it. Some serieses I've read have had probably 75% filler by volume. Yes, I don't like paying for ads. But I also don't like paying for a manga volume that's 50% motion-blur effects because an author likely needed to stretch out a fight so they could plan out their next story-arc and an epic battle is only really work for the artist, not the writer.

Furthermore, sitting here thinking about it, a softcover Manga volume is $10 USD for me. DC publishes their comics for $2.99. It's a selling point for them. So for the price of one volume of black and white manga which may or may not be 75% motion-blur flash-step/instant-transmission filler, I can get roughly 3 of my monthly DC titles, most of which have more story per issue. Albeit perhaps not by much.

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As for the continuing Continuity complaint....it really...doesn't happen all that much. One of the things about western comics is that especially with the Big two, something is ALWAYS restarting. There's always a new event going, someone's always getting a Secret Origins run, you get the idea. You may not be able to start on the character you really WANT to read, but it seems to me like it's never very long before there's a one-shot, or some other recap/jumping on point for people. If not an event that starts that people can jump onto if they keep their eyes open. and really? As I said: even if you MUST start in the middle of something, typically a few minutes of internet research or asking your local clerk/comic nerds, can fill you in.

Also, if all else fails....*shrugs* buy the trades. I own a fair amount of them myself and for people who aren't comic fans it provides good reading because the entire thing tends to be collected in one volume. It's ALMOST a better way to go, and frankly? Again at ten bucks a volume for manga, I'm getting the entire story for the cost of two volumes if it's softcover.