American Patriotism

[rt052192]

By the way, the soviet union won the second world war, not the americans XD

Now this is comical...I will say that the Soviets did a good job of repelling the Germans from Russia(the Russian winter probably had a greater effect then the Red Army), but let's be serious. You honestly believe that had America not entered the war the Red Army would have been able to eliminate the Germans from North Africa, Italy, Liberate France, get Germany to surrender, and deal with the Japanese in the Pacific? Yeah, I think it's quite comical to think this. The combined efforts of America and the Soviets, not solely one or the other, is what won the second world war.

ah, need to interject and use this damn BA.

The British did a fair amount of the work in North Africa, Italy fell like a stack of cards as soon as someone showed up with a gun (oversimplified for brevity), France was being defended by 10% of the German army and Canadian and British Forces made up a major part of the D-Day landing. The Soviets and Japanese had a peace treaty that was maintained up until right after the first atomic bomb went off and Russian invaded Manchuria.

The Red Army fought better than msot people give them credit for. Yes they were mainly a conscript army, but the Russian population had been massively taking part in after work activities like parachute training, rifle training and grenade tossing as recreational activities. Combine that with the massive partisan movements in the countryside and resistance movements throughout the reich and the Soviets would ahve won in time without the second front ever being opened.

So in the end Germany would fall, Japan would be untouched but would have devastated most of East Asia. North Africa would probably look pretty much like it does today. France would probably have a lot more Communist influences, since the Red Army would either have kept mowing on into France after Germany fell or would have been their immediate neighbour.

OT: Saving private Ryan is less irritating to me than some other American war movies. U-571 being the biggest pain to me as a historian as it casts Americans as the brave men who captured the enigma device, when in reality they were British.

Patriotism can be OK, it just has to be balanced and we all need to avoid jingoism.

you raise some valid points and yes the British did do alot during the war, but it was still a combined effort from the Big Three, not just the Soviets. Besides, your theory about how the soviets may have been able to win is yet, just a theory based on speculation. To end: I cannot stress this enough; it wasn not a one man show that won WORLD war 2, it was the combined effort from the Allies.

Of course, without support the Soviets would have floundered a lot longer and lost millions of more lives. I do base my theory in some pretty solid historical research mind you. Germany was going to lose the war in the end regardless, if only due to their inherent lack of raw materials. The Soviet industry was outproducing Germany by 1943 and they continued to expand while German output started to fall due to lack of material and manpower. Because the Soviets shipped all of their heavy industry over the Urals, it was safe from bombing, something the German industry starter to suffer as the RAF/RCAF started to counter-attack in the west.

But yes, it was through combined effort that victory was achieved. Your first post came off as a little arrogant and condescending so I felt the need to counter with the power of a history degree.

Yea I will admit that I was a bit biased and condescending, but it is absurd to say that the Soviets won World War 2. Also, I hadn't meant for it to come across saying that America solely won the war. That is absurd, certainly America provided fresh troops and a breath of relief, but the combined strengths of the Allies is what won WW2 and the tactical blunders of Hitler.

Argument/discussion aside: I'm loving this historical debate and correct me if I'm wrong but you have a degree in history? I'm currently going for engineering, but history has always been my favorite class. I just don't know what I can do with a degree in history.

 

[rt052192]

Well most of these movies are made in the USA, about the USA, so its only natural really. I've noticed it as well, and it does get kind of old.

The US wasn't the only nation invading Europe after all...

YOU LIE! Obviously Americans and Germans were the only people involved in the real fighting of WWII!

(If you can't tell the above was sarcasm, please defenestrate yourself at the nearest possible opportunity)

As for my take on patriotism: It's all kinda silly. Being proud of the place you were born in is kinda like being proud that you have skin.

That's probably more than a bit influenced by my anti-government nature though. I am quite firmly against just about all forms of governing, so I tend to view any and all governments as inherently invalid and evil.

Yea I came off very arrogant, but that was not my intent. Obviously Britain had a great deal of input in securing North Africa, France, Italy, etc. I was more or less saying that it was the Americans, not the Soviets, who helped with the Western Front. I do believe that it was because of America that World War 2 was won, but not solely because of America only, it was a group effort by the Allies. Sorry for coming off as a douche.

 

[Mariakitten]

Im American and Im not patriotic at all, I describe myself as, "I may have been born in America, but my hearts in Canada".

 

[Commissar Sae]

[
Yea I will admit that I was a bit biased and condescending, but it is absurd to say that the Soviets won World War 2. Also, I hadn't meant for it to come across saying that America solely won the war. That is absurd, certainly America provided fresh troops and a breath of relief, but the combined strengths of the Allies is what won WW2 and the tactical blunders of Hitler.

Argument/discussion aside: I'm loving this historical debate and correct me if I'm wrong but you have a degree in history? I'm currently going for engineering, but history has always been my favorite class. I just don't know what I can do with a degree in history.

Agreed, every worked together on the war effort. And yeah I'm a historian now. Still a recent graduate though so I haven't got a job in my field of choice. Heading towards either teaching or working in a museum at the moment. If the Cold war museum ever gets back to me I'll be workin in a nuclear bunker (fingers crossed.)

 

[doodger]

By the way, the soviet union won the second world war, not the americans XD

Now this is comical...I will say that the Soviets did a good job of repelling the Germans from Russia(the Russian winter probably had a greater effect then the Red Army), but let's be serious. You honestly believe that had America not entered the war the Red Army would have been able to eliminate the Germans from North Africa, Italy, Liberate France, get Germany to surrender, and deal with the Japanese in the Pacific? Yeah, I think it's quite comical to think this. The combined efforts of America and the Soviets, not solely one or the other, is what won the second world war.

Well I disagree. It's true that the french and italian front must have added pressure to germany, but the soviet union was just too strong. Did you hear about the battle of Kursk?

The german brought almost 800,000 men. About 3,000 tanks. More than 2,000 planes. Nearly 10,000 cannons and mortars.
The russian? Nearly 2,000,000 men. More than 5,000 tanks. More than 25,000 big guns and nearly 3,000 aircraft.

The end result? One million bodies on the ground. But while the german never recovered, the russian just drafted hundred of thousands more soldiers.

Yeah, the only thing the americans were worried about was that the russian would steamroll trough the entire europe.

 

[BlackStar42]

America has it's share of dicks like every other country. Problem is that the world's media focuses on America, so your dicks get noticed more and out-dick the rest of the world's dicks. Leading to the popular "AMERICA SUCKS111!!" we see so often.

Plus you have Fox News, so at least a little of the hate is kinda understandable (I kid!)

Oh, and I looked at the comments on the America, Fuck Yeah video. That's your problem there.

 

[Lord Mountbatten Reborn]

My thoughts on patriotism can be summed up by Oscar Wilde.

"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious."


Simply put, if you believe your country it superiour to all other countries, because you were born in it, then you are a vicious person who will, some day, end up hurting people.

"A cigarette is the perfect type of perfect pleasure. It is exquisite, and leaves one unsatisfied. What more could one want?"

Sorry, had to have a fun ol' Wilde quote in there, even if it was completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

And any WWII film, no matter who the story is following, must be brimming with patriotism. The tone must be heady with brass and heartfelt glory on a distant battlefield.

 

[Lord Mountbatten Reborn]

Yeah, the only thing the americans were worried about was that the russian would steamroll trough the entire europe.

The combined efforts of all Allied nations made sure Germany didn't win. There were points when Russia was very likely to lose, especially during the first years after Germany's invasion. Without Britain, it is likely that German resources could've been moved and Russia overwhelmed. They lost the equivalent of their entire pre-war army; sure they could get many recruits, but if factors had been slightly different it would've ended in Russian defeat.

Operation Typhoon for instance (the attack on Moscow) might have succeeded had the Germans had more resources, enabling them to overcome their logistical difficulties, as well as allowing them to punch through into the capital proper.

Without America, specifically certain aspects of the lend-lease act, Russian troops would've faced food and transportation issues.

However, Russia did contribute the most to the destruction of Nazi Germany in the end.

 

[lukemdizzle]

So..
Last night I watched Saving Private Ryan - and I thought it was absolutely fantastic.
The opening battle scene (the Normandy landing) was absolutely incredible and got my real hyped up for the rest of the film.
However, I found that it was so ridiculously "American" it almost put me off the movie.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-patriotism, nor am I anti-American, but I don't see why the Americans get so involved with films like these, where as other war films - IE: British films - are much less patriotic in a sense.
I come from New Zealand and I can relate with war tales, especially those where my own countrymen are concerned (I am often deeply moved by stories/ceremonies regarding the landing at ANZAC Cove in WWI etc.) but I don't see why the American versions always have that overlying American "air."

I was just wondering what all the Americans out there thought of this, and what your thoughts on patriotism are.

to answer why american war films are so patriotic (saving private Ryan is actually one of the less patriotic ones) It is because war is such an important part of american history and culture. we have had a major war every 10 years for as long as we have been a country. so manny people in america have lost friends and family in various wars that whenever war is portrayed in film those people want to think the loss meant something. the easiest way to accomplish this is through evoking patriotism. This is also why in america, soldiers are regarded as the bravest most amazing people ever. american patriotism obviously has a dark side portrayed through the ultra right wing american superiority complex but thats a whole different conversation. I personally have allot of patriotism in the sense that I want to see america and its citizens be healthy, innovative and prosperous, but I assume every country has that kind of patriotism.

Barack Obama said it well when he was asked if he thinks america is the greatest county in the world. his response was "I think america is the greatest country in the world in the same sense that somebody from england would think england is the greatest country in the world, or a person from germany would think germany is the greatest country."

 

[Pariah87]

The Battle of Britain fought by the valiant RAF.

There is a film about that, called, funnily enough, The Battle of Britain. It's quite a good film. IIRC they do make several points about how it wasn't just Brits flying in the RAF. One that comes to mind, I believe a Pole was flying a Spitfire who got shot down over some farmland. He manages to get out of the plane, only to be captured by the locals at pitchfork point after they hear his accent and assume he's German.

The most touching part of the film, to me at least were when the credits rolled. We fully aknowledge that we had help protecting our island from invasion as they list the numbers of people from all the different countries who served and flew with the RAF. As a rather sombre footnote they also add the number of Germans and which type of plane were shot down.

Spoiler: Battle of Britain Credits

Edit: I should add alot of the dogfighting footage in the film is taken from actual footage, not staged, it adds extra poignancy when you see those planes trailing smoke and flame were real and not cgi or effects.

 

[Shock and Awe]

An American movie about American soldiers fighting a war that started(for us anyway) with an attack on America, and is marketed toward Americans is patriotic in tone? Now thats just silly...

OT: Seriously though, the only thing that struck me as overly American in that movie was the fact that I saw only US soldiers and the British were only mentioned once that I can recall.

 

[jasoncyrus]

*let the flaming begin* (not from me)

Personally I don't see why anyone is go gunghoe about patriotism.

Unless you are being invaded then it's pointless. It quite obvious that anyone *willingly* entering military service in the western world right now (especially in the UK and US) clearly has some sort of death wish.

If we were being invaded, then yeah sure, i'd be ok with signing up because it's our way or their way (their way will most likely involve people like me being executed anyway so i may aswell go down fighting).

But other than that, it's pointless. Let other places police themselves, soldiers are more than just glorified riot police. If you're going to put THAT much man power into occupying the country. At least invade it properly and keep it for yourselves. Otherwise you're just wasting time money and lives.

 

[Kenko]

"Nationalism is a silly cock crowing on his own dunghill." ~Richard Aldington

Except with patriotism. Same shit though.

"American Patriotism"...

Should take a hike. Seriously.

And this. America is nothing special as there are several other nations like it, but with health care.

Yeah, what he said. *Goes out and enjoys free highquality healthcare*

 

[Danny Ocean]

*snip*

I seem to recall that the true story it's based upon was actually a joint British-American operation. Where are all the other nationalities?

And, of course, there's the classic American trumpets and the, quite frankly disgusting[footnote]In the literal sense of the word.[/footnote], waving American flag at the end.

Shouldn't the lion kill the gazelle?

No, because the gazelle is made of the same stuff as the lion.

Argument is fine though. Besides, invading a country and imposing your values upon them would surely be hypocritical if nationalistically motivated, as it is infringing upon the besieged nation's right to self-determination.

 

[Exocet]

Spoiler: Battle of Britain Credits

That looks like a great movie,but there were one or two odd things about the credits.It says no free French pilot was KIA,but I know for a fact some were after ready a book from a free French pilot in the RAF,one of his friends plane was damaged and he had to try to go back across the channel,but the combination of combat fatigue,a busted plane and the lack of oxygen made him lose control of the plane and crash.

Like all RAF pilots with over 1000 sorties,his lungs had been burned by all the oxygen they had to breathe during battle.Man,even though I'm a Frenchie,so I'm expected to be a rival to the British,I have nothing but the upmost respect for the men and women of the RAF.

 

[Gunsang]

I think American patriotism today is mostly bunch of conservative idiots waving their flags, saying that America is the greatest at everything despite tons of evidence otherwise. Most rational people who might be patriotic are ashamed at their patriotism because of these types of people. I apologize if I offended anyone, this is just what I feel.

Watch Apocalypse Now! or Full Metal Jacket if you want an American war film that isn't patriotic.

 

[Buschmaki]

I feel that patriots are amazing, I mean they made walking nuke tanks what's not to love about patriots?