We did, they were called Puritans and they did some deplorable shit. Before that we did have something like the Crusades & Inquisition, an entire race and culture of people were subdued and and beaten for being heathens and pagans.oliveira8 said:
American Theocracy
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Nice to know someone here knows about the Founding Fathers in that light. They were amazingly progressive, and I can only imagine that the America they envisioned is wildly different from the one we have these days.Kpt._Rob said:While, personally speaking, I do advocate for a more agressive atheism, I will say that I see your point. And yes, I love Religulous, I have it on my iPod.RebelRising said:I said there is nothing wrong with Religion, not Religious People. Believe me, I know all about all the shortcomings of organized religion (I go to a Christian private school, despite being Atheistic-Agnostic), I'm just trying to avoid a huge flame-war here.Kpt._Rob said:
On a similar note, have you seen Religilous? Because you'd love that movie, as do I.
Let me reiterate my stance on this: I'm not a militant "OMG You believe in a magic man the sky, your stoopid" atheist, but I still think we'd be better off without practicing religion (not to say we shouldn't retain the mythology); for the most part, it's just backwards when applied to the real world. My counter-point to that would be to urge us not to look down on religion as something that should be removed by force.
We heretics should remember what it was once like to be suppressed and hunted down for our beliefs. At least we don't have the Spanish Inquisition and the Teutonic Order.
Seconded. If I may paraphrase Sam Harris, when our political leaders get up and say that they want to do something because they believe it is the will of God, someone should get up and say "how is that any different from saying you want to do something because you believe it is the will of Zeus?"Terminalchaos said:
Also, I'm afraid you missed your day to hear political candidates refuse to answer questions about religion. Those were the early days of our nation, back when the founding fathers, many of whom were deist, actually followed the policy of seperation of church and state. Still, one can hope they'll come again.
Anyways, even having an Ancient Greek Paganist for a President would be a vast improvement. They knew how to roll.
Well, if you'd like an attrocity, how about the thousands of innocent children who, every year, end up in therapy as the end result of religious indoctrination? How about the homosexuals who are beaten and even killed? If you want something personal, how about my gay friend whose parents disowned him, and kicked him out of their house, for no reason other than the fact that he was homosexual? Would you like me to keep going?Kpt._Rob said:
EDIT: As for the fact that you are related to that group, I'll assume that you're a religious moderate, and I will appologize, because the fact is that you are collateral damage. Religious extremists draw their legitimacy from the name they share with you, and if the things they do are to come to an end, unfortunately so must the sources from which they draw their legitimacy. If you can think of some way to end the uprising of fundamentalist religion without damaging moderate religion, I'd love to hear it.
WHAT???????? It is blatantly obvious that you are the indoctrinated one, thousands of children end up in therapy???? where the hell are you getting these facts? Homosexuals who are beaten and killed??? Maybe in the middle east, but you are going way over the top in blaming Christians...specifically RIGHT WING CHRISIANS for committing attrocities.....you should really focus on the hate towards all "infidels" by radical muslims than attacking christians for not allowing gay marriage....if you are gay and want to get married...just go somewhere else? It is such a small minority, but it screams at the top of it's lungs, and overpowers the huge majority of people against it..oh, and I bet you're a university student too.....Kpt._Rob said:
Well if you think about it marriage is the one true bridge between "Church and State" when you are maried you get legal rights through the Federal government, and who is to tek thoes rights away from anyone because of religious belifes when. I think we should bag the whole marriage thing and give a Civil Union a more fancy name.
That's funny? Because I'm an ex-Christian myself. I spent about 5 years of my life trying desperately to convince myself that I believed in God, but if you want to tell me that the end result of that debate makes me indoctrinated then go ahead.reaper660 said:
And yes, thousands of children DO end up in therapy as the end result of religious indoctrination. Specifically as a result of the damaging affects of telling a small innocent child that if they screw up they will roast in unbearable agony for the rest of eternity. Anyone else think it might be a little cruel to tell a child they're going to roast? If you want to see an interview with a psychologist who specifically deals with these cases, you can watch Richard Dawkin's documentary "The Root of All Evil?"
People ARE killed in America because they are gay, look up Matthew Shepard if you don't believe me, and he's only one of the cases that got famous. I live in Oklahoma and I see the hatred that people here have towards homosexuals as a result of religious indoctrination. And gay people shouldn't have to go somewhere else to get married. But fortunately, the modern political trend seems to indicate that as the years pass more states will allow gays to mary.
And finally, I find the religious extremism in the Middle East to be just as disturbing. But I live here in America, and Christianity is dominant here, so that is my primary focus.
One large atrocity that Rob here has mentioned is of how innocent children end up in therapy due to religious indoctrination, and I'd like to bring up the major example that Richard Dawkins has brought up in his book "The God Delusion" and his documentary "The Root Of All Evil". This is the idea of Hell Houses, in which the sole objective is to scare the kids silly so that they won't commit any bad acts. These houses are all over America and every year they send thousands of kids to therapy for horrors they will never forget. An example is of a psychologist Dawkins mentioned, I cannot remember her name, who even said when asked what she was told in these houses "It's so odd how even after all these years it still affects me." This to me is one of the largest atrocities that still takes place to this day.Kpt._Rob said:
I honestly don't understand what people have against gay marriage. I don't want to sound disrespectful or start a fight, but can you explain what you have against homosexuals being linked in marriage?reaper660 said:
EDIT: I am assuming you're against gay marriage, if you're not I apologize for my assumption and retract my statement.
Ironic. You attack him for having unsupported claims, yet spout out even more unfounded claims? Noe one beaten or killed for homosexuality in America? Do you have your head in your ass? Also, did you compare Radical Christians to Radical Muslims? Like someone I forgot said, "The question here is whether or not women should be ministers. Over there it's "Should we execute them if the speak to a man who is not their husband." Plus, not sure if you noticed, but the radical Muslims are in the MIDDLE EAST. We are talking about here, so we don't have to have religion forced down our throats.reaper660 said:
To quote a truly wise man,
"I would gladly kill everyone on earth, including myself, just to stop religious fundamentalism."
I don't understand why, in the 21st century, humans have yet to grasp that not all of us will think or believe the same thing. It really sickens me that people can't leave eachother the fuck alone.
Uhm... muslims is not a dominant religion in the US. Maybe that's why he shouldn't focus on islam when we're discussing the US (non-)separation of church and state?reaper660 said:
Agreed. Although the scary thing that most religions do is that they indoctrinate rather than allow free thinking. That runs the risk of a huge group of people being enormously intolerant to other groups of people. Such as the three monotheistic religions vs. gays or practitioners of other religions.steveo_justice said:
And then the scary part of free thinkers is, yes, people like Hitler. Remember though that Hitler was a product of his time and place: Most people in Germany at that time wanted a return to dictatorship and many did want to blame jews for their troubles.
Traditionally jews were not treated very well in Europe. As a result jews kept to their own cliques as self protection which has the result that sometimes nowadays jews don't treat people outside their clique very well.
sizzle949 said:
the problem is that even in your statement, you attack all christians even by saying that a few fundamentalists brainwash innocent children by telling them that they will go to hell if they are bad. Homosexuals who are beaten and killed, again, extremists...but then how are we managing to single out muslim extremists, without condemning all of Islam? Can the same be true for moderate and extremist Christians in America?sizzle949 said:
Seconded. Religion has become the oppressed part of society. I would say that the Reps still attack the Dems though: all politics involves mudslinging. It just isn't as loud right now because the Reps are disorganized.reaper660 said:
I mean, WHY did the Pledge have to be removed from schools? I, as a Catholic, never took the line that includes "under God" to mean MY god... I thought it meant ANY god, even no god (if you were a atheist). It's a line that is meant to express the freedom of religion, not oppress it.
EDIT:
You sir, win. What do you win? PICK SOMETHING. I'll see what I can do.Bored Tomatoe said:
I'm not going to try and claim that Hitler wasn't a nontheist, although he made a few speeches which I could track down the quotes I heard from that might convince one otherwise. That said, however, the antisemitism that Hitler drew on did come from a theistic tradition. Jews were persecuted in much the same way that witches were for centuries. In fact, after... I think it was the third Lateran Council, when the doctrine of transubstantiation was created (the idea that the communtion bread was LITERALLY the body of Christ) many Jews were killed for the imaginary crime of Host Desecration, meaning that people claimed they had taken advantage of the fact that Jesus was now available in defensless cracker form, and had decided to kill him again (one does have to wonder why eating him didn't kill him). This went hand in hand with the Blood Libel, which was the commonly held belief at the time that Jews required the blood of Christians (specifically Christian babies) for various rituals. That said, Hitler had a few hundred years worth of help establishing the antisemitism that he used to persecute the Jews.Capo Taco said: