American Theocracy

[sizzle949]

If you want to understand why atheists like myself are attacking religion, take some time out of your busy day, rent or buy a copy of Jesus Camp, and then watch it. The religious right in this country is responsible for a number of attrocities, and is right to be attacked. The fact that gays can't marry is something that we, as Americans, should be downright ashamed of, and innocent children suffer massive psychological damage as the end result of religious indoctrination by fundamentalists. Moderate religion is a victim in the crossfire, because the fundamentalists draw their legitimacy from the numbers of people who call themselves "Christian".

lots of quotes.....First, you have to take a look at the TV once in a while, and notice the bias going on.......i live in california, so it probably mostly happens here (as opposed to southern states) but the anti-conservative-religious stuff happening is out of control...up to the point where churches have smashed windows, and anti-bush and rush posters are getting very annoying. and Rob, would you be kind enough to mention these "atrocities" that (specifically) the Christian-Right has caused? Thank you, as you are a perfect example of how people attack nearly everything that I believe...backing their arguments up with unrelated facts and statistics.....but I do agree with you on one point....Young Earth Creationists are making us normal Christians look bad....and most anti-religious people succeed in relating us to that extreme group

Well, if you'd like an attrocity, how about the thousands of innocent children who, every year, end up in therapy as the end result of religious indoctrination? How about the homosexuals who are beaten and even killed? If you want something personal, how about my gay friend whose parents disowned him, and kicked him out of their house, for no reason other than the fact that he was homosexual? Would you like me to keep going?


EDIT: As for the fact that you are related to that group, I'll assume that you're a religious moderate, and I will appologize, because the fact is that you are collateral damage. Religious extremists draw their legitimacy from the name they share with you, and if the things they do are to come to an end, unfortunately so must the sources from which they draw their legitimacy. If you can think of some way to end the uprising of fundamentalist religion without damaging moderate religion, I'd love to hear it.

One large atrocity that Rob here has mentioned is of how innocent children end up in therapy due to religious indoctrination, and I'd like to bring up the major example that Richard Dawkins has brought up in his book "The God Delusion" and his documentary "The Root Of All Evil". This is the idea of Hell Houses, in which the sole objective is to scare the kids silly so that they won't commit any bad acts. These houses are all over America and every year they send thousands of kids to therapy for horrors they will never forget. An example is of a psychologist Dawkins mentioned, I cannot remember her name, who even said when asked what she was told in these houses "It's so odd how even after all these years it still affects me." This to me is one of the largest atrocities that still takes place to this day.

If you want to understand why atheists like myself are attacking religion, take some time out of your busy day, rent or buy a copy of Jesus Camp, and then watch it. The religious right in this country is responsible for a number of attrocities, and is right to be attacked. The fact that gays can't marry is something that we, as Americans, should be downright ashamed of, and innocent children suffer massive psychological damage as the end result of religious indoctrination by fundamentalists. Moderate religion is a victim in the crossfire, because the fundamentalists draw their legitimacy from the numbers of people who call themselves "Christian".

lots of quotes.....First, you have to take a look at the TV once in a while, and notice the bias going on.......i live in california, so it probably mostly happens here (as opposed to southern states) but the anti-conservative-religious stuff happening is out of control...up to the point where churches have smashed windows, and anti-bush and rush posters are getting very annoying. and Rob, would you be kind enough to mention these "atrocities" that (specifically) the Christian-Right has caused? Thank you, as you are a perfect example of how people attack nearly everything that I believe...backing their arguments up with unrelated facts and statistics.....but I do agree with you on one point....Young Earth Creationists are making us normal Christians look bad....and most anti-religious people succeed in relating us to that extreme group

Well, if you'd like an attrocity, how about the thousands of innocent children who, every year, end up in therapy as the end result of religious indoctrination? How about the homosexuals who are beaten and even killed? If you want something personal, how about my gay friend whose parents disowned him, and kicked him out of their house, for no reason other than the fact that he was homosexual? Would you like me to keep going?

EDIT: As for the fact that you are related to that group, I'll assume that you're a religious moderate, and I will appologize, because the fact is that you are collateral damage. Religious extremists draw their legitimacy from the name they share with you, and if the things they do are to come to an end, unfortunately so must the sources from which they draw their legitimacy. If you can think of some way to end the uprising of fundamentalist religion without damaging moderate religion, I'd love to hear it.

One large atrocity that Rob here has mentioned is of how innocent children end up in therapy due to religious indoctrination, and I'd like to bring up the major example that Richard Dawkins has brought up in his book "The God Delusion" and his documentary "The Root Of All Evil". This is the idea of Hell Houses, in which the sole objective is to scare the kids silly so that they won't commit any bad acts. These houses are all over America and every year they send thousands of kids to therapy for horrors they will never forget. An example is of a psychologist Dawkins mentioned, I cannot remember her name, who even said when asked what she was told in these houses "It's so odd how even after all these years it still affects me." This to me is one of the largest atrocities that still takes place to this day.

the problem is that even in your statement, you attack all christians even by saying that a few fundamentalists brainwash innocent children by telling them that they will go to hell if they are bad. Homosexuals who are beaten and killed, again, extremists...but then how are we managing to single out muslim extremists, without condemning all of Islam? Can the same be true for moderate and extremist Christians in America?

Actually nowhere in my statement do I actually refer to all Christians, so I'm not sure if you were directing that at me or Rob. What I am saying is that the atrocity of Hell Houses are horrible, and yes they are fueled by people with Christian ideals, extremist ones at that, which is alot of what this forum is. Yes there are moderate Christians in America, but the growing number of extremists, especially ones in power, is what are starting to make atheists in America scared (not me, I'm in Canada so it's a bit more accepting)

I suggest checking out http://adultthought.ucsd.edu/Culture_War/The_American_Taliban.html to understand what I mean when I say extremists in power

 

[RebelRising]

Who says Hitler was an atheist? The evidence seems to point elsewhere http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_hitler.html

Don't take the one source I posted for it - look it up yourself- there good arguments on both sides but I am going to disagree with your statement that Hitler was an atheist- he publicly embraced Catholicism at one point.

True, but even more than that; he was a ridiculous flip-flopper when it came to religion. It seems on some days it was all about atheism, on other days it was about Catholicism, and on yet other days it was a sort of Pseudo-Pagan occultism. Strange.

But saying that he was a mass murderer because atheism is ridiculous, it holds just as much weight as saying C.S. Leis was n occasionally hackneyed writer because he was a Christian. Correlation is not sufficiently held up just because of an adherence to some perverted version social Darwinism.

 

[reaper660]

i can see that my pov is definitely not popular, and people just couldn't resist that juicy subject....I am not a religious nut, and I strongly believe in separation of church and state...I don't go to church that often, but I can clearly see the turning of America into a Godless country. Religion was not the basis for morals, but it upholds them, and without religion, morals can conceivably start to fade, and countless gray areas will start appearing.

 

[Kpt._Rob]

the problem is that even in your statement, you attack all christians even by saying that a few fundamentalists brainwash innocent children by telling them that they will go to hell if they are bad. Homosexuals who are beaten and killed, again, extremists...but then how are we managing to single out muslim extremists, without condemning all of Islam? Can the same be true for moderate and extremist Christians in America?

I will admit that there is a marked difference between the moderates and the extremists. The problem is that the extremists draw their legitimacy from the fact that they share a name with the moderates. If one wants to stop the extrimists, they have to oppose Christianity as a whole, moderates then become colateral damage in a theological debate. And the fact is that moderates don't speak out against extremists enough, as Bill Maher puts it at the end of Religulous "If you belonged to a political party or a social club that was tied to as much bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, violence, and sheer ignorance as religion is, you'd resign in protest. To do otherwise is to be an enabler, a mafia wife, for the true devils of extremism that draw their legitimacy from the billions of their fellow travelers."

 

[reaper660]

Taking quotes out of context is what people like you do best. many of those quotes are either by extremists, outdated, or satirical...or true!! And who says extremists are in power? The only Pro-religious people in power are without any actual political power, they are just exercising free speech. Democrats practically own the government now, and with the Messiah by their side, I don't think it will be long before the word "God" is eliminated from every corner of the US.

 

[Leorex]

No offense Rogue, but you are exactly my opposite. It sickens me to see that people think we are a bunch of religious kooks, while at the same time religion is being attacked by our own people. to see that there is a possibility for God to be taken out of EVERYTHING is just ridiculous. I get the feeling like religion is viciously attacked by atheists, but we don't attack them nearly as much. Same goes for conservatives vs. Liberals....this may not be true, but it feels like liberals viciously attack conservatives, but we just don't fight back.

btw...obama is not the lesser of (more than) two evils, he's the popular one, and the popular one isn't always the right one.

I disagree. Don't get me wrong, I feel that Christianity is an important part of our culture on some level (and this is coming from a Jew/Agnostic/Deist), but the Constitution specifies a separation of Church and State for a reason. But, so long as we keep God out of our Government (again, separation of Church and State) and Schools (seriously, you have no idea how awkward it is to be raised Jewish and have Christianity pushed on you), I'm fine.

Also, there's plenty of people one both sides (liberal and conservative, I mean) who bash each other, although it is interesting to see how the roles in that regard have switched with Obama's election (i.e, conservatives protesting, Fox backing them, NBC bashing them; just bizarre).

this, religon gives us good things as well as bad, and it is not my place to take it away from any one, even if i dont beleave in it.

and my government should not be favoring any religon over any others. even any at all.

 

[Guitarmasterx7]

America is, and always has been, a theocracy. Granted it's lessening, but until we've had an atheist run for office and at least get past the prelims, nothing has changed.

I get the feeling like religion is viciously attacked by atheists, but we don't attack them nearly as much.

^This, may or may not be true. I believe it to be false but I've never conducted surveys or anything. However, as an Atheist myself, I can honestly say that from my personal experience, religion is the thing that initially imposes and starts all attacks against that religion.

In my case, my religious neighbor asked me what church i want to. When I said i didn't go to church because I didn't believe in god, they claimed I was the devil and desperately tried to convert me. This resulted in me telling them reasons that I didn't believe in god, for example the overall lack of proof, and they claimed I was attacking their beliefs. This behavior from my experience is hardly rare, and I live in California, which is a very liberal state. Other reasons for atheists "attacking" religion include missionaries, people sent by the church with the intention of converting people. blue laws, like not being able to buy alchohol on sundays in most red states. And right infringement like telling us we can't get an abortion or things like the whole "gay marraige" issue.

I'de be willing to bet that at one point any given atheist didn't care about religion, until it started to in some way effect them.

 

[reaper660]

reaper660:
I don't think it will be long before the word "God" is eliminated from every corner of the US.

Wouldukindly: Well now you're just being a drama queen, haha.(quote)

Well now your making light of the situation

 

[Kpt._Rob]

America is, and always has been, a theocracy. Granted it's lessening, but until we've had an atheist run for office and at least get past the prelims, nothing has changed.

I get the feeling like religion is viciously attacked by atheists, but we don't attack them nearly as much.

^This, may or may not be true. I believe it to be false but I've never conducted surveys or anything. However, as an Atheist myself, I can honestly say that from my personal experience, religion is the thing that initially imposes and starts all attacks against that religion.

In my case, my religious neighbor asked me what church i want to. When I said i didn't go to church because I didn't believe in god, they claimed I was the devil and desperately tried to convert me. This resulted in me telling them reasons that I didn't believe in god, for example the overall lack of proof, and they claimed I was attacking their beliefs. This behavior from my experience is hardly rare, and I live in California, which is a very liberal state. Other reasons for atheists "attacking" religion include missionaries, people sent by the church with the intention of converting people. blue laws, like not being able to buy alchohol on sundays in most red states. And right infringement like telling us we can't get an abortion or things like the whole "gay marraige" issue.

I'de be willing to bet that at one point any given atheist didn't care about religion, until it started to in some way effect them.

I wouldn't say that the affect on me personally was the primary reason that I've become so fervently anti-religious; although getting called "trash" was probably a contributing factor to some of my anger. It was when I began to study the affects that religion is having on our world as a whole that I begame fervently anti-religious though. Reading Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens; watching Maher and Flemming, these things opened my eyes a lot, and the reason that I attack religion is because the evidence that has been presented to me has lead me to conclude that religion is a detrimental force in this world. And I have yet to see sufficient evidence to show the opposite.

 

[Avatar Roku]

I mean, WHY did the Pledge have to be removed from schools? I, as a Catholic, never took the line that includes "under God" to mean MY god... I thought it meant ANY god, even no god (if you were a atheist). It's a line that is meant to express the freedom of religion, not oppress it.

Actually, that line was put in in the '60s to show that we were different from those "godless commies". I'll admit, however, that controversy was completely overblown.

i can see that my pov is definitely not popular, and people just couldn't resist that juicy subject....I am not a religious nut, and I strongly believe in separation of church and state...I don't go to church that often, but I can clearly see the turning of America into a Godless country. Religion was not the basis for morals, but it upholds them, and without religion, morals can conceivably start to fade, and countless gray areas will start appearing.

Well, I see your point, and lord knows I respect you for making it, but I have to disagree. It is entirely possible to have morals without believing in a higher power. It's also possible to be a moral-less fuckwit while believing in a higher power. It's all so relative, and it completely depends on the individual person.

 

[hungoverbear]

im just gonna say i am really sick of these type of threads, it goes from intelligent conversation to smug assholes slamming everyone, thinking "oh there are some religious nut jobs in america! then the whole country is full of religious nut jobs!" ok little fact, extremely religious people make up a very very very very very very small percentage of christians (and every other religion) Why cant people realize that?

 

[reaper660]

America is, and always has been, a theocracy. Granted it's lessening, but until we've had an atheist run for office and at least get past the prelims, nothing has changed.

I get the feeling like religion is viciously attacked by atheists, but we don't attack them nearly as much.

^This, may or may not be true. I believe it to be false but I've never conducted surveys or anything. However, as an Atheist myself, I can honestly say that from my personal experience, religion is the thing that initially imposes and starts all attacks against that religion.

In my case, my religious neighbor asked me what church i want to. When I said i didn't go to church because I didn't believe in god, they claimed I was the devil and desperately tried to convert me. This resulted in me telling them reasons that I didn't believe in god, for example the overall lack of proof, and they claimed I was attacking their beliefs. This behavior from my experience is hardly rare, and I live in California, which is a very liberal state. Other reasons for atheists "attacking" religion include missionaries, people sent by the church with the intention of converting people. blue laws, like not being able to buy alchohol on sundays in most red states. And right infringement like telling us we can't get an abortion or things like the whole "gay marraige" issue.

I'de be willing to bet that at one point any given atheist didn't care about religion, until it started to in some way effect them.

I live in LA, and nearly every kid i've talked to about the subject angrily defend their "hatred of republicans" or "hatred of religion" without having any facts to back them up. The fact is that ( i know, it may sound like an old argument) liberalism dominates the media, and kids are exposed more to atheism, and liberalism...and are just spouting what they've heard on the T.V.

i know many kids who go around and say "Bush sucks" and "there is no God." when I ask them "Why?" they have no answer

 

[Avatar Roku]

America is, and always has been, a theocracy. Granted it's lessening, but until we've had an atheist run for office and at least get past the prelims, nothing has changed.

I get the feeling like religion is viciously attacked by atheists, but we don't attack them nearly as much.

^This, may or may not be true. I believe it to be false but I've never conducted surveys or anything. However, as an Atheist myself, I can honestly say that from my personal experience, religion is the thing that initially imposes and starts all attacks against that religion.

In my case, my religious neighbor asked me what church i want to. When I said i didn't go to church because I didn't believe in god, they claimed I was the devil and desperately tried to convert me. This resulted in me telling them reasons that I didn't believe in god, for example the overall lack of proof, and they claimed I was attacking their beliefs. This behavior from my experience is hardly rare, and I live in California, which is a very liberal state. Other reasons for atheists "attacking" religion include missionaries, people sent by the church with the intention of converting people. blue laws, like not being able to buy alchohol on sundays in most red states. And right infringement like telling us we can't get an abortion or things like the whole "gay marraige" issue.

I'de be willing to bet that at one point any given atheist didn't care about religion, until it started to in some way effect them.

I live in LA, and nearly every kid i've talked to about the subject angrily defend their "hatred of republicans" or "hatred of religion" without having any facts to back them up. The fact is that ( i know, it may sound like an old argument) liberalism dominates the media, and kids are exposed more to atheism, and liberalism...and are just spouting what they've heard on the T.V.

As opposed to just spouting what they hear in church. Point is, they're kids, they're gonna blindly repeat someone anyway, you have to give them time to form their own opinions.