American Theocracy

[reaper660]

Well, I

reaper660

seeing your very moving biography, I can tell that you started hating America at a very young age. You misinterpret your facts. In no place does the Bible condemn masturbation. Christianity only condemns lust, which is akin to looking at porno and jacking off to that. And what does Jocylyn trying to stop aids have to do with anything?


--------------------


Thank you for clicking on that and tryin to understand me on a personal level. That being said, Jocylyn was trying to use masturbation as an safer alternative to intercourse, which is how AIDS was spreading to most children at the time. And Christianity DOES condemn masturbation, it's seen as a sinful indulgence.

A before you imply that I hate America again, I suggest YOU take a look at American foriegn policy between '79 and '95 and wonder what there is for folks to get angry at.

I did't see you make a new post...and see how you are trying to drag me into an era that I did not live through (except in 95) The whole point of the argument is about what is going on now, not what happened 20 years ago. You do seem to be quite irate about the subject.

I am irate, but I'll touch on that later. I can realize that perhaps, to you, two decades is too long to pay attention. And the argument is, in fact about how America is becoming more theocratic, and that didn't start yesterday. You asked me why someone could hate Bush, why someone could hate God, I gave you reasons. You disregarded them, or said that they didn't apply. Then you suggested that I hated America, which tells me you didn't read my profile very carefully. By the way, I suppose my bio is very moving to someone who puts "Your mom" down in their interest field.

I'm twice your age. 'sir,' you just gotta figure I've seen a tiny bit more than you.

I can see how you would pull the old "I'm older than you, so I'm smarter" card, but that is flawed, because you may have experienced more, but common sense and a view of the whole picture isn't tied into age. I didn't ask you any of those questions, you simply presumed to answer them. America is most definitely becoming LESS of a theocracy from the POV of a 15 year old living in LA, because less and less people are relating to Christianity, and more and more power is in the hands of atheist liberals in the government, so saying that America is becoming a theocracy is utterly absurd, because in reality, the mainstream is liberal and atheist.

 

[Overlord Moo]

Problem: The line between Church and State is blurred.

Solution: Kill Everyone.

I second this. Objections...?

No? The motion carries. We'll kill everyone this Saturday, make sure Max the Reaper knows, he won't want to miss it.

I'll tell him.

Can I bring my shotgun? (pumps the shotgun and points it at you) Pwety pwease?

 

[Alex_P]

It IS the extremists who give the whole bushel of apples a bad taste, but then again, where are the moderate christians denouncing the extremists?

Well, here's one [http://slacktivist.typepad.com/]. The thing is, "moderate Christian" laity denouncing crazy ideas just look like any other person denouncing crazy ideas; oftentimes, you can't tell they're specifically Christians. Meanwhile, mainline Protestant clergy don't have a soapbox because they don't have megachurches and they generally try to act apolitical, while the Catholic Church leadership won't fight fundamentalists and dominionists directly because it thinks it needs them to attack abortion(*).

I think part of the problem is that a lot of Americans amorphously identify as Christian but don't really delve into the philosophy of their religion deeply. This renders them unable to recognize when an authority figure like Dobson or Falwell is voicing a belief straight out of the gospel and when he's just making stuff up on the spot. Case in point: every single History Channel show about Christian eschatology turns weird fringe tortured-logic readings of Revelation into the one and only version of the apocalypse.

-- Alex
__________
* - It looks like, with pressure from liberal Catholics, the church is slowly coming around to the position that the best way to prevent abortion is through social action rather than political lobbying -- focusing energy on trying to make people choose not to abort rather than trying to force an abortion ban through the legislature. I see the prohibition against contraception as something that's going to severely impede their attempts at dealing with the issue through education and charity efforts for quite some time, though.

 

[Khazoth]

Been that way a long time. I dare the next election for an atheist to run. Hahahaha.

America is a fucking joke. Here are a few of the punchlines.

Everyone loves freedom of speech until someone says something that they don't personally agree with. (See: The Dixie Chicks)

Gay marriage is detrimental to the sanctity of marriage, yet quicky Vegas weddings by Elvis? Perfectly fine.

Its perfectly fine to be a racist.. As long as your not white. (Watch stand-up comedy)

Its perfectly fine to be a murderer or a rapist.. As long as your rich (Ex: Michael Jackson, O.J, etc.)

Capitalism works by having a human pyramid,with the bodies of the poor used to elevate the few. Sure, its one of the best systems we've came up with but thats like winning a beauty contest against the ladies from the view.

Democracy is slow and often works against itself when people are too busy pushing their parties agenda to care about the issue. If you've made up your mind about the answer to the question before you've even heard the question then you fail at life, please go sit in the corner.

The only way to stop a murderer is to wait until he kills someone. So if their a cult leader, this system doesn't really work as you can't prove anything until after he's killed his followers (Ex: Jim Jones)



To be clear, i'm not an atheist, I just don't believe in any bible. Ironic yes? I call it the first national church of misanthropy. I feel that humans are too arrogant and stupid to have gotten any message they received right, much less able to keep the message straight for a few hundred years. Ever play that game where you whisper something around a room to see how fucked up it gets? I feel that yeah, there most likely is a god, but i'm not going to believe an unreliable book.

As for government, i'm a democrat when it comes to social issues i'm a liberal democrat and when it comes to issues of justice such as the aforementioned cult leaders.. I would make republicans look very liberal. For the particularly sick individuals I would bring back ye olde punishments.

 

[Kpt._Rob]

Church and State in America have been melded since the beginning, and in a very subversive way at that.

Your pledge, which students have to take every day in some states, mentions God.

Your Presidents, no matter how obviously left-wing they are, don't dare go a speech without mentioning God.

Private religious schools are powerfully funded over there.

There is a chance of actually being taught creationism in a SCIENCE class over there.

You have Bill 'O Reilly, who's hugely popular, talking about being "left-wing" as though it's a cardinal sin to be given the label. Hello~ political fundamentalism! Think what we think, or you're damned to Hell.

Forget "becoming" a theocracy. America already IS a theocracy. Less of one than maybe ancient Rome was for a minute, but that's about as modern as it gets in those terms.

Of course, there are voices of reason that say that this isn't what secular government or secular schooling is meant to be. People like David Letterman and John Stewart, who fight it with comedy. But it's not yet enough to change where all the big money is in America; and that's with the religious. If you want a new, more serious separation of Church and State in America, you'll have to be pretty dedicated and get other people dedicated to that cause, too. Rich people, particularly.

And a few choice words for the masses who support the current mentions of God in pledges and the required teaching of creationism in schools:
Free will, nutcases. Remember that? Your God taught how important it was. And to give it to others. So stop forcing beliefs on everybody else.

So says Silva, passionate agnostic and defender of your right to say whatever you damn well please, worship nothing or anything, and pledge nothing or anything, except forcing your idiocy on anyone else.

I keep saying this, but I'll say it again; America was NOT founded on the Judeo-Christian tradition. People who came here on boats came here and founded colonies, many of which were based in the Judeo-Christian tradition, but the founding fathers who wrote our constitution were not, this is a myth that has been spread by Christian propagandists. The founding fathers, many of whom were deist, stressed the importance of the seperation of church and state, and understood very well the difference between being American, and being Christian. The addition of "under God" to our pledge was also a recent and unfortunate addition; this was added during the sixties during the red scare with the rediculous premise that somehow it'd help the Americans fight the Communists.

Ancient Rome, while officially a theocracy, did court a doctrine of freedom of religion. Most faiths were tolerated, and the supposed torture of Christians by Romans was in all likliehood one of the many things which never happened (like the entirety of the gospels) that Christians wrote into a historical context.

That said, I agree with you for the most part, at this point in time America has far too many religious influences. I started my first post with some facts about recent presidents, but let me reiterate, the one with Regan is particularly scary

Ronald Regan once commented (seriously I might add) to one of his cabinet members that he had set up the necessary conditions for the rapture [feel free to read Sam Harris' "The End of Faith", an excelent book, if you want an exact quote]; George Bush Senior once said that he did not consider atheists to be legitimate American citizens; and the fact that Bush Jr. used to have weekly meetings with Evangelical pastor Ted Haggard speaks for itself.

***

I prefer to go with personal experience about religion. Most of them need to be eradicated from existence due to previous abuse of their belief structure.

Top two are Christianity and Islam. Together those two have maimed, pillaged and extermined countless people, millions upon millions and moving into the billions if we got the full spectrum of the 2009 years christianity has apparently been around.

Ever notice how bhuddists do extreme protests? The sit in a clear area by themselves, pour petrol over their bodies and light a match.

Christianity? Carpet bombing and mass genocide.

Islam? Suicide bombing and mass genocide.

I say we all turn bhuddist or similar.

I think it's remiss of you to forget that Mormonism is tied up in just as much extremism percent-wise, if not more, than Christianity. Most of the funding behind the recent Prop 8 bill in California came from the Mormons, they're guilty too, and we shouldn't forget them completely.

It IS the extremists who give the whole bushel of apples a bad taste, but then again, where are the moderate christians denouncing the extremists?

Right. Fucking. Here. Seriously, show me ONE extreme religious nut on this website.

Here he is!

if you are gay and want to get married...just go somewhere else? It is such a small minority, but it screams at the top of it's lungs, and overpowers the huge majority of people against it.

And odubya is right, there aren't a lot of religious moderates attacking the fundamentalists, so it gets left up to atheists like myself. If you religious moderates would like to see the attacks on religion by people like me stop, then I encourage you to find some way to end extremism yourself. Until then, I'm just going to go ahead and keep attacking religion as a whole, sure it's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it.

 

[PlasticPorter]

Ok im fairly sure that you didn't think your topic through at all because despite what you say america has both a left AND a right as well as people who believe in a religion and people who don't. When you just decide that ALL AMERICANS ARE RELIGIOUS NUTS LOLOLOLOLOL.
you are the one who sounds like the closed minded fool with a prejudice.

 

[Kpt._Rob]

Ok im fairly sure that you didn't think your topic through at all because despite what you say america has both a left AND a right as well as people who believe in a religion and people who don't. When you just decide that ALL AMERICANS ARE RELIGIOUS NUTS LOLOLOLOLOL.
you are the one who sounds like the closed minded fool with a prejudice.

I think you may be the one who has generalized too much here. Religious extremism has a strong root in the roughly 40 percent of Americans who are Evangelical, this being one of (if not the) most motivated voting blocks. American politicians have to court religious people, and for an atheist to get elected in this country would be all but impossible given the current political climate. Consider further that some things, gay marriage for instance, are illegal here in America; this is strictly the result of religious influence on the government, as no secular group would have any reason to wish that gays couldn't get married. Consider even further that 50 percent of Americans claim to be fairly certain that the rapture will be coming in their lifetime (and the majority of these are excited about it too because it entails the return of Jesus which is, from their perspective, the best thing that could ever happen), given this statistic it is little wonder that America lacks the motivation to excitedly join the green movement... why try to take care of the earth if you think it's going to end? If you watch some of the religious right, this is also why they actually encourage the wars in the Middle East, because world conflict, and specifically conflict in the Middle East, is a precursor to the end times.

 

[Jupsto]

At least its all rather amusing how stupid these religous nuts are. Can't complain about sarah palin, shes hilarious. maybe I'd be more scared if I lived in America.

But seriously theres a group called freedom from religion, which I kind of agree with. I don't think religion and politics is a good mix. but then I don't think politicians and politics is a good mix either. all politicians are asshats by nature.

 

[Powerman88]

This is a funny thread. America is VERY far from a theocracy. There are pockets in America that contain religious nutjobs just like there are pockets of rural Europe that have religious nutjobs. I think its funny how a lot of Atheist liberals (btw I consider myself an Agnostic. I am not religious but I was raised Jewish) preach tolerance but show no tolerance to anyone who believes differently than them.

I, personally, would be WAY more concerned about the Muslim extremists that are becoming very numerous in England and France who are WAY more dangerous than crazy Christians in America.

I live in a part of America that does recognize gay marriage. Believe it or not Europeans, America is not full of backwards thinking, bible thumping zombies marching down the street shouting Jesus saves.

 

[Grimm91]

With the way that America is going there is no way in hell it will ever become a Theocracy. Only because America is becoming more secular and people are straying from the Churches. So I don't think it will ever happen and besides the Democratic party will die long before that will ever happen.

 

[Neotericity]

Thanks for your responses it's really interesting to see multiple points of view on a contreversial subject that greatly interests me.

 

[Perticular Elk]

As a foundamentalist Christian, I think there is a misconception as to what "wall of church and state actually means". Where in the Constitution does it say this? And in what context?

Everson v. Board of Education (1947), Justice Hugo Black cites a "letter" a thomas Jefferson that said the first Amendment was to erect a wall of church and state. There was no legal precedence for this decision. America was founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs. Go and read the writings of some of the founders. John Adams said (paraphrase) America was built for a relious and moral people and no other.

(And a would like some examples of atrocities of the religous right, and conservative spewing hate, please)

 

[windfish]

What part of the country are you visiting? Are you sure we're talking about the same country here?

 

[capnjack]

This "god bless america" crap hardly comes up where I live. I think the idea that America is becoming a Theocracy is ridiculous.

I hate religious controversy. It always turns into a giant argument in which both sides are equally stupid and wrong.

This is exactly right and the thread should have ended right here. America is anything but a theocracy. In reality, any rational person should be able to see that the reliance on and the respect towards religion (especially Christianity) is diminishing. It's ridiculous to argue that things are becoming more religious. As Christians begin to feel threatened in America, they are becoming more vocal, but less and less people support what have been traditionally Christian ideals. To fear Christianity in a day and age where Christianity is under vicious attack is not only silly, it seems disingenuous to the real issue at hand: our inability to tolerate one another.

Beyond the radical conservative hypocritical religious nutjobs, most Christians, I believe, are actually tolerant, open minded and just as afraid of where society is heading.

 

[Xan Krieger]

Perfect post. (seeing as this comp won't let me quote posts the one I am talking about is by Mimsofthedawg at 20 May 2009 04:20)

I'm religious to the point that in my dream last night I saw the crucifiction of Jesus and went through the bit where they jam a metal nail through your ankles myself. I heard myself scream in pain. I am also going to the "Night of Hope" by Joel Osteen in September. So yeah I'm religious.
However I am not a religious extremist either. Though I do not approve of gay marrige my best friend is a lesbian. Most of my friends are atheists. It doesn't bother me in the slightest. I understand people have problems with people who push their religions on others but we must also remember they the people who push atheism on others can be just as bad.

I am a moderate, one who will freely talk to everyone and treat them with respect regardless of their religious affiliation or sexual preferance. I never push my religion on others. I say my stance and will let you say yours and I'm fine if you disagree with me.

The point: Not all people who are religious are crazy. The leader of Iran is crazy, most muslims are not. David Karesh who led the Waco incident was crazy, most christians are not.

 

[reaper660]

Church and State in America have been melded since the beginning, and in a very subversive way at that.

Your pledge, which students have to take every day in some states, mentions God.

Your Presidents, no matter how obviously left-wing they are, don't dare go a speech without mentioning God.

Private religious schools are powerfully funded over there.

There is a chance of actually being taught creationism in a SCIENCE class over there.

You have Bill 'O Reilly, who's hugely popular, talking about being "left-wing" as though it's a cardinal sin to be given the label. Hello~ political fundamentalism! Think what we think, or you're damned to Hell.

Forget "becoming" a theocracy. America already IS a theocracy. Less of one than maybe ancient Rome was for a minute, but that's about as modern as it gets in those terms.

Of course, there are voices of reason that say that this isn't what secular government or secular schooling is meant to be. People like David Letterman and John Stewart, who fight it with comedy. But it's not yet enough to change where all the big money is in America; and that's with the religious. If you want a new, more serious separation of Church and State in America, you'll have to be pretty dedicated and get other people dedicated to that cause, too. Rich people, particularly.

And a few choice words for the masses who support the current mentions of God in pledges and the required teaching of creationism in schools:
Free will, nutcases. Remember that? Your God taught how important it was. And to give it to others. So stop forcing beliefs on everybody else.

So says Silva, passionate agnostic and defender of your right to say whatever you damn well please, worship nothing or anything, and pledge nothing or anything, except forcing your idiocy on anyone else.

I keep saying this, but I'll say it again; America was NOT founded on the Judeo-Christian tradition. People who came here on boats came here and founded colonies, many of which were based in the Judeo-Christian tradition, but the founding fathers who wrote our constitution were not, this is a myth that has been spread by Christian propagandists. The founding fathers, many of whom were deist, stressed the importance of the seperation of church and state, and understood very well the difference between being American, and being Christian. The addition of "under God" to our pledge was also a recent and unfortunate addition; this was added during the sixties during the red scare with the rediculous premise that somehow it'd help the Americans fight the Communists.

Ancient Rome, while officially a theocracy, did court a doctrine of freedom of religion. Most faiths were tolerated, and the supposed torture of Christians by Romans was in all likliehood one of the many things which never happened (like the entirety of the gospels) that Christians wrote into a historical context.

That said, I agree with you for the most part, at this point in time America has far too many religious influences. I started my first post with some facts about recent presidents, but let me reiterate, the one with Regan is particularly scary

Ronald Regan once commented (seriously I might add) to one of his cabinet members that he had set up the necessary conditions for the rapture [feel free to read Sam Harris' "The End of Faith", an excelent book, if you want an exact quote]; George Bush Senior once said that he did not consider atheists to be legitimate American citizens; and the fact that Bush Jr. used to have weekly meetings with Evangelical pastor Ted Haggard speaks for itself.

***

I prefer to go with personal experience about religion. Most of them need to be eradicated from existence due to previous abuse of their belief structure.

Top two are Christianity and Islam. Together those two have maimed, pillaged and extermined countless people, millions upon millions and moving into the billions if we got the full spectrum of the 2009 years christianity has apparently been around.

Ever notice how bhuddists do extreme protests? The sit in a clear area by themselves, pour petrol over their bodies and light a match.

Christianity? Carpet bombing and mass genocide.

Islam? Suicide bombing and mass genocide.

I say we all turn bhuddist or similar.

I think it's remiss of you to forget that Mormonism is tied up in just as much extremism percent-wise, if not more, than Christianity. Most of the funding behind the recent Prop 8 bill in California came from the Mormons, they're guilty too, and we shouldn't forget them completely.

It IS the extremists who give the whole bushel of apples a bad taste, but then again, where are the moderate christians denouncing the extremists?

Right. Fucking. Here. Seriously, show me ONE extreme religious nut on this website.

Here he is!

if you are gay and want to get married...just go somewhere else? It is such a small minority, but it screams at the top of it's lungs, and overpowers the huge majority of people against it.

And odubya is right, there aren't a lot of religious moderates attacking the fundamentalists, so it gets left up to atheists like myself. If you religious moderates would like to see the attacks on religion by people like me stop, then I encourage you to find some way to end extremism yourself. Until then, I'm just going to go ahead and keep attacking religion as a whole, sure it's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it.

I find it funny that how you say it is, "if yoy believe a single thing about a religion, you are automatically a religious nut." People keep on relating me to extremists, which only strengthens my argument that people just put a religion all in one group, and take the worst characteristics of that group. people who say these things actually don't know a thing about Christianity, nor care to learn anything, because they already are so stubborn with their own beliefs, and cannot tolerate anyone else's. And please explain the "carpet bombing" that that Christianity has caused. The argument that Christianity had killed the most is wrong; think of atheism, and communism (which is based off atheism) think of Hitler (self proclaimed Christian, but he doesn't follow christian beliefs, making him NOT Christian) Pol Pot, and The MIllions upon Millions killed by communism, by mass murder or starvation. I just love the fact that atheists attack Christians for killing, yet they have killed far more.

 

[McClaud]

It's a pendulum.

We've been back and forth over the too-religious, super anti-religious ground like 3 times in US history. It's not like anything is every going to settle or be resolved.

I do have something to say to people who think that we shouldn't separate religion and state:

In a representative democracy (or republic), everything runs by legal precedent. If you set a precedent for making certain laws, then your opponent has the ability to use that precedent against you to pass their laws. When you make a law based entirely on a religious majority, you are moving into dangerous territory. You are setting a precedent to pass religious law. Should the religious majority in this country ever change and you become the religious minority, you better be prepared for the new majority to pass laws that oppress you/you won't like. You gave them the precedent.

 

[timmytom1]

I`m beginning to wonder why Kpt.rob is talking to a brick wall

 

[Alex_P]

(self proclaimed Christian, but he doesn't follow christian beliefs, making him NOT Christian)

I don't consider most dominionists, millenarists, and rapturists to be following core Christian spiritual beliefs, either. They still seem to have the upper hand in defining what "Christian" means in the political arena, however. And they're definitely having a highly negative impact on American culture and political policy.

Also, ahem, mod voice on: "What were Hitler's religious beliefs?" is a really pointless argument, especially since most posters are just making stuff up on the spot. Just drop that tangent right now, everyone, please.

-- Alex