American Theocracy

[deciusbrutus]

My deal has always been "I'll keep my government out of your religion if you keep your religion out of my government."

I consider the various gay marriage bans to be violations of the second half of that; Right now I support the repeal of the tax-exempt status of any religious organization that contributes to any political purpose, and an expansion of laws regulating free speech to specifically prohibit hate speech in sermons.

 

[laikenf]

My opinion is this: there is nothing inherently wrong with religion; let's be honest here, we can't can't prove the non-existence of God any better than we an prove the existence of God, but politics is a dirty business, and religion has no place in it in terms of making decisions and guiding the state by a singular doctrine. I'm confident that we are inching towards a much more tolerable society in the regard to people, who were once second-class citizens, or even people unworthy to live, are now being accepted (or tolerated), and science is much more prevalent today and has made phenomenal progress as it stands. What remains is that we let extremism stagnate and distill on it own terms. If they isolate themselves from the rationality that defines modern civilization, they will cease to be relevant.

If you really think there is nothing wrong with religion, I would encourage you to read anything by Sam Harris ("Letter to a Christian Nation" is very good, and it's quick read too, but "The End of Faith," is a little more comprehensive). Religion is responsible for so much violence, misogyny, biggotry, and psychological damage, amongst other things, that it's not even funny.

And while it's true that the non-existence of God can't be absolutely proven, I would encourage you here to read Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion," for arguments to the affect that while God's existence can't be disproven, we can ditermine that the probability of his existence is far less than the probability of his non-existence.

I said there is nothing wrong with Religion, not Religious People. Believe me, I know all about all the shortcomings of organized religion (I go to a Christian private school, despite being Atheistic-Agnostic), I'm just trying to avoid a huge flame-war here.

On a similar note, have you seen Religilous? Because you'd love that movie, as do I.

Let me reiterate my stance on this: I'm not a militant "OMG You believe in a magic man the sky, your stoopid" atheist, but I still think we'd be better off without practicing religion (not to say we shouldn't retain the mythology); for the most part, it's just backwards when applied to the real world. My counter-point to that would be to urge us not to look down on religion as something that should be removed by force.

We heretics should remember what it was once like to be suppressed and hunted down for our beliefs. At least we don't have the Spanish Inquisition and the Teutonic Order.

I can't blame you for not expecting the Spanish Inquisition... NO ONE EXPECTS the Spanish Inquisition!!!!!

And by the way, I think it's pretty neat how you can remember things from when you weren't alive. And I'm half jewish by ethnicity, and I gotta say, those aethist dudes Hitler and Vlad the Impaler, they're not even comparable to the Inquisition. Or wait, was it that they were far worse and more sadistic than the Inquistions, and then I was going to deliver a thesis that such dickery is less to do with religion, and more to do with human nature? I can't remember now.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Hitler a devout christian?

 

[Alex_P]

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Hitler a devout christian?

This is my mod voice. I repeat: "What were Hitler's religious beliefs?" is a really pointless argument, especially since most posters are just making stuff up on the spot. Just drop that tangent right now, everyone, please.

-- Alex

 

[Undeadpope]

Something I would like to point out in defense for both sides.

Christianity is not evil,people just warpped it over a long peroid of time to the point where gobal equality turned into hatred(It certainly has not worsened since the crusades etc).

I wish everyone converted Shinto,I take personal interest in all religions as part of a sort of pact I have made with whatever is(if exists) a divine power be it a god/ess/e/s or spirits like the Kami but I like Shintos idea of communal happiness and they hate blood and death.(Note:I do not think I actually talked to any sort of god/ess etc,this is just something I said with my head skyward(just to signify I was adressing whomever I was adressing))

 

[The_Echo]

Becoming?

This. The U.S has been a center of theology and hatred for years now. It's just now coming to a peak. I recommend watching the film "Religulous" which shows some very good points aganist religion and its influence on society.

Of course religion would have an influence on society. Nobody needs to watch a movie to realize that. Oh, and how have the United States been a center for theology? It's not like the government is collecting people across the shores to study God.
I also agree with an above post that stated that the separation of church and state can only be accomplished if one is removed absolutely. Why? Because, as long as they both exist, and as long as even one person, rooted in both, remains alive, church and state will never be completely separate.

But personally, I don't see how this country is heading toward theocracy. Sure, our leaders are religious, but that doesn't mean they're going to pull their religion into their administration.

Bush was elected only because of his strong support from Evangelicals. I've never watched it, but see the film Jesus Camp as I hear it shows how brainwashed soem youth are to be religous.

Oh shit, double post.

/dies

Just because Bush won from religious support doesn't mean our politics will follow suit. It's the people's choice and should the people vote based on religious views, so be it. That by no means says that we are falling into a theocracy here. I'm also aware of "brainwashed" religious people (Or as I call them, Super-[Insert religion]). The kind with a "holier than thou" mindset because they follow their religion verbatim, right? They're annoying, but once again I don't see how a small part of our society becoming hellbent religious will affect our government directly. To conclude my views on this subject, I find no way that America will become a theocracy anytime soon, especially since we have so many different religions within the country.

 

[Internet Kraken]

This "god bless america" crap hardly comes up where I live. I think the idea that America is becoming a Theocracy is ridiculous.

I hate religious controversy. It always turns into a giant argument in which both sides are equally stupid and wrong.

This is exactly right and the thread should have ended right here. America is anything but a theocracy. In reality, any rational person should be able to see that the reliance on and the respect towards religion (especially Christianity) is diminishing. It's ridiculous to argue that things are becoming more religious. As Christians begin to feel threatened in America, they are becoming more vocal, but less and less people support what have been traditionally Christian ideals. To fear Christianity in a day and age where Christianity is under vicious attack is not only silly, it seems disingenuous to the real issue at hand: our inability to tolerate one another.

Beyond the radical conservative hypocritical religious nutjobs, most Christians, I believe, are actually tolerant, open minded and just as afraid of where society is heading.

I agree. I have met very few religious people who have been intolerant of other people.

Yet many of the people who claim to be sophisticated intellectuals bash others for having a different belief. It's quite sad.

 

[Dynex811]

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Hitler a devout christian?

He was actually a secret Buddhist.

 

[Pimppeter2]

Don't judge us by our government

 

[Lord_Ascendant]

if America becomes a Theocracy I'm defecting to either Canada or the United Kingdom.

 

[szaleniec1000]

The argument that Christianity had killed the most is wrong; think of atheism, and communism (which is based off atheism) think of Hitler (self proclaimed Christian, but he doesn't follow christian beliefs, making him NOT Christian) Pol Pot, and The MIllions upon Millions killed by communism, by mass murder or starvation. I just love the fact that atheists attack Christians for killing, yet they have killed far more.

Following the mod warning I'm not going to go into Hitler's religious beliefs. On the subject of communism, it's wrong to say that it was based off atheism, rather it incorporated atheism because Stalin was a paranoid bastard and didn't want the Church competing with his authority. You can't attribute all or even most of the deaths Stalin's brutal reign caused to atheism.

We're always on shaky ground comparing the numbers of people killed in the ancient world with the modern world, because the total world population pre-industrialisation was considerably less. 1 million people killed in 1509 (when the world population was ~500 million) are equivalent to 12 million killed 500 years later in 2009 (world population 6 billion). This self-evidently obvious point never seems to surface on either side of the debate.

 

[steveo_justice]

My opinion is this: there is nothing inherently wrong with religion; let's be honest here, we can't can't prove the non-existence of God any better than we an prove the existence of God, but politics is a dirty business, and religion has no place in it in terms of making decisions and guiding the state by a singular doctrine. I'm confident that we are inching towards a much more tolerable society in the regard to people, who were once second-class citizens, or even people unworthy to live, are now being accepted (or tolerated), and science is much more prevalent today and has made phenomenal progress as it stands. What remains is that we let extremism stagnate and distill on it own terms. If they isolate themselves from the rationality that defines modern civilization, they will cease to be relevant.

If you really think there is nothing wrong with religion, I would encourage you to read anything by Sam Harris ("Letter to a Christian Nation" is very good, and it's quick read too, but "The End of Faith," is a little more comprehensive). Religion is responsible for so much violence, misogyny, biggotry, and psychological damage, amongst other things, that it's not even funny.

And while it's true that the non-existence of God can't be absolutely proven, I would encourage you here to read Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion," for arguments to the affect that while God's existence can't be disproven, we can ditermine that the probability of his existence is far less than the probability of his non-existence.

I said there is nothing wrong with Religion, not Religious People. Believe me, I know all about all the shortcomings of organized religion (I go to a Christian private school, despite being Atheistic-Agnostic), I'm just trying to avoid a huge flame-war here.

On a similar note, have you seen Religilous? Because you'd love that movie, as do I.

Let me reiterate my stance on this: I'm not a militant "OMG You believe in a magic man the sky, your stoopid" atheist, but I still think we'd be better off without practicing religion (not to say we shouldn't retain the mythology); for the most part, it's just backwards when applied to the real world. My counter-point to that would be to urge us not to look down on religion as something that should be removed by force.

We heretics should remember what it was once like to be suppressed and hunted down for our beliefs. At least we don't have the Spanish Inquisition and the Teutonic Order.

I can't blame you for not expecting the Spanish Inquisition... NO ONE EXPECTS the Spanish Inquisition!!!!!

And by the way, I think it's pretty neat how you can remember things from when you weren't alive. And I'm half jewish by ethnicity, and I gotta say, those aethist dudes Hitler and Vlad the Impaler, they're not even comparable to the Inquisition. Or wait, was it that they were far worse and more sadistic than the Inquistions, and then I was going to deliver a thesis that such dickery is less to do with religion, and more to do with human nature? I can't remember now.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Hitler a devout christian?

No, he was a lot of fucked up shit. He sort of had to play Christian PR and Marxist PR simultaneously, and a pillar of his political engine was aetheism. He had a pretty complicated setup, but suffice to say no Christian of any sect would call him a practicing christian by any definition (and not due to philosophical issues, but his actual participance in the church).

 

[steveo_justice]

And, uh, having read the last several posts I see that the Mod put out quite a few warnings against what I just unknowingly posted. ah haz teh sorreez lol. But it was a pretty innocent comment, right?

 

[thiosk]

jesus gives me the jumblies

 

[Compatriot Block]

Well, apparently I've been labeled as a religious extremist. Convert the infidels, burn the heretics, etc...This is silly.

 

[Trilby_V]

I dont live in "America" (which is actually a whole continent) I live in Mexico (being one of the few lucky bastards smart enough to be born rich), and here some people are very religious, however the "wall" between church and state is quite strong. I feel that the US has always been a bit retarded (as in the literal sense of the word) in moral stuff. I mean, they where one of the last countries to abolish slavery, and it took a war to do so. While the US. is way better than Mexico in many other areas, I think it has a severe flaw in moral development.

EDIT: Well, I do live in America, as in the continent, just not in the US.

 

[TheSentinel]

Why is it that Religious beliefs are so integral in Presidential campaigns? Everyone was sayin "OMG OBAMA NOT A CHRISTIAN!" or "OBAMA IS MUSLIM!" I just didn't see the point of it all.

 

[garfoldsomeoneelse]

Becoming?

This. The U.S has been a center of theology and hatred for years now. It's just now coming to a peak. I recommend watching the film "Religulous" which shows some very good points aganist religion and its influence on society.

Agreed entirely on all accounts.

 

[reincarN8ed]

American Theocracy in a nut-shell: "FUCK YEAH!!"

 

[reincarN8ed]

Why is it that Religious beliefs are so integral in Presidential campaigns? Everyone was sayin "OMG OBAMA NOT A CHRISTIAN!" or "OBAMA IS MUSLIM!" I just didn't see the point of it all.

Yea....I didn't care so much about his religious beliefs. I just didn't like him because he's black.