An Armed Society is a Polite Society (?)

[Zykon TheLich]

I know I will probably get flamed for this, but there is nothing wrong with a country allowing its civilians to own guns. Just because that's how it works in the U.K. doesn't mean it's the best way to be, and I often wonder why so many Europeans seem to care so much about American guns laws anyway, and they seem to take a personal interest in seeing guns taken from American civilians for no other reason than, "That's the way it is in my country." I mean no insult to anyone, but that's just the feeling I get from these kinds of threads. Removing guns from society will in no way eliminate violent crime.

Speaking for myself I really don't care what the US does inside it's own borders.

Speaking for others p) I think it's a bit of a chicken/egg scenario. Whenever the topic comes up someone either comes up with: "graaah you aint free/all your crime is because you don't have lots of guns" or "graah you've got such a high murder/crime rate cause you've got lots of guns" then it snowballs from there. Either type of comment is seen as a 'we do things better and you guys are shit' insult (i.e. using the other as a negative comparison to justify their own way of doing things) and each 'side' starts ripping into each other.

 

[Rahnzan]

An Armed Society is a Polite Society?

No, an armed society is a fearful society.

Yup. Or a society where every heated argument == blood all over the walls.

Every arguement you get into ends in fists doesn't it? Good decent people are reasonable. Just because I have a gun doesn't mean I'm going to start shooting people who disagree with me. I cant stand statements like this. I understand the need for gun control but I dont understand how anyone can say a gun-totting society is a bloodbath waiting to happen. I can pick up anything and make it a weapon. Anything. Do you know what illegal aliens are using as they cross the boarder? Large rocks, baseball sized and up. Kill a man just as well as any 9mm bullet. A Tree branch, a set of keys, a piece of rebar, a truck, for gods sakes any tool in a toolbox. Do we go around with wrenches in our pockets slaughtering people? No.

An armed society isn't a fearful society either. Anyone who says this obviously hasn't lived in D.C for more than a month. Most responsible gunshop owners wont sell to an obviously paranoid individual either.

@TSB Agreed. Anything can be used as a weapon anyway. Take away guns and people will start clamouring about grizzly knife murders. Lets see them try and ban sharp objects..

 

[Doug]

An Armed Society is a Polite Society?

No, an armed society is a fearful society.

Yup. Or a society where every heated argument == blood all over the walls.

Every arguement you get into ends in fists doesn't it? Good decent people are reasonable. Just because I have a gun doesn't mean I'm going to start shooting people who disagree with me. I cant stand statements like this. I understand the need for gun control but I dont understand how anyone can say a gun-totting society is a bloodbath waiting to happen. I can pick up anything and make it a weapon. Anything. Do you know what illegal aliens are using as they cross the boarder? Large rocks, baseball sized and up. Kill a man just as well as any 9mm bullet. A Tree branch, a set of keys, a piece of rebar, a truck, for gods sakes any tool in a toolbox. Do we go around with wrenches in our pockets slaughtering people? No.

An armed society isn't a fearful society either. Anyone who says this obviously hasn't lived in D.C for more than a month. Most responsible gunshop owners wont sell to an obviously paranoid individual either.

@TSB Agreed. Anything can be used as a weapon anyway. Take away guns and people will start clamouring about grizzly knife murders. Lets see them try and ban sharp objects..

Gee, thanks for the complement - as a matter of fact, no, I never hit someone. And I'm fully well aware of the fact that a rock can kill as easily as a bullet, although aiming one is alot harder than a gun.

Anyone who thinks a well armed society is a polite one has never been to the council estate in England.

 

[tsb247]

I would also like to point out that the there are strong connections between gun violence in the U.S. and illegal drugs/narcotics. A great deal of violent crime is centered around the drug trade, not because people get into arguments and decide to simply kill each other. One dealer moves onto another's turf, and they will fight for territory. The heart of the problem is not the existence of firearms in society, it is a matter of criminal greed.

 

[tsb247]

I know I will probably get flamed for this, but there is nothing wrong with a country allowing its civilians to own guns. Just because that's how it works in the U.K. doesn't mean it's the best way to be, and I often wonder why so many Europeans seem to care so much about American guns laws anyway, and they seem to take a personal interest in seeing guns taken from American civilians for no other reason than, "That's the way it is in my country." I mean no insult to anyone, but that's just the feeling I get from these kinds of threads. Removing guns from society will in no way eliminate violent crime.

Speaking for myself I really don't care what the US does inside it's own borders.

Speaking for others p) I think it's a bit of a chicken/egg scenario. Whenever the topic comes up someone either comes up with: "graaah you aint free/all your crime is because you don't have lots of guns" or "graah you've got such a high murder/crime rate cause you've got lots of guns" then it snowballs from there. Either type of comment is seen as a 'we do things better and you guys are shit' insult (i.e. using the other as a negative comparison to justify their own way of doing things) and each 'side' starts ripping into each other.

Agreed. People really get defensive about this particular topic. I know I do from time to time, and the arguing usually begins with the statement mentioned above.

 

[SaraPh]

It's simply a case of false causality when taken outside of the originally intended context. Politeness of a society is founded on empathy and sympathy, it really doesn't have much at all to do with the armament of those involved. An apathetic society is equally impolite armed or otherwise, but it's okay with them because they just don't effin care.

@Rahnzahn, you have a very strange concept of the word fact. Some don't even particularly make sense, for instance how is a mugger supposed to know the difference between a gun owner and someone who never touched a gun from a few minutes of observation in the dark. Even more, I'm sure they don't have any trouble with gun owners who have their guns safely locked away at home while they are out doing their daily shopping.
Secondly Russia has been near impossible to invade because their winter has consistently sabotaged their enemies artillery and supply lines while utterly destroying enemy morale. It wasn't until later years that they began mass conscription. Though I do concede the importance of mass conscription during WWII.

As to my contribution, I'm not entirely against people owning guns, but I'm really not swayed by most of the anti-gun-control argument. The simple truth of the matter is that in a situation where the assailant has the drop on you they can almost always attack if not disable you in the time it would take to remove a gun from it's holster. In fact the uncertainty that your possession of a gun adds to the situation is not a good one, it may set your enemy in a state of mind where they consider their survival dependent on shooting you first. However being something of a probable target for hate crimes, I can't say I entirely disavow guns as self defense. If it is basically obvious that their intent is to kill you, or... worse, then it becomes a moment where you have nothing left to lose either way and it becomes a viable option.

Most of this discussion though depends on our understanding of both perpetrators and victims as rational actors, but that is seldom the case. A perpetrator in the act is probably going to be high on adrenaline, nervous, panicky and had the determination to follow through with the act anyways. Whatever chance there was of them making a sane and rational decision regarding their surrounding environment has gone the moment they decided to commit the act. A victim will also be adrenaline pumped, with even less time to have regained control of it, and probably caught in a state of panic as they try to reconcile their fight/flight with whatever is left of their logical thought process. We're talking distilled chaos theory here as even a slight change in perception can completely destroy whatever logical control was left in the situation.

In other words, you can come up with all the platitudes you want about how being armed is safer, but it doesn't prove anything. The fact that a rational actor would reach a certain decision has no bearing on fundamentally irrational actors. Everything is entirely situational. To even let yourself get caught up in your own hubris that you might understand the vast spectrum of situations so well as to know what is going to fix a slim majority is... quite foolhardy.

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

Untrue, American's are armed and they aren't polite, to eachother or anyone else.

Canadians are largely unarmed and we're fairly polite, to others and eachother.

Explain that?

 

[Sane Man]

Untrue, American's are armed and they aren't polite, to eachother or anyone else.

Canadians are largely unarmed and we're fairly polite, to others and eachother.

Explain that?

Perhaps we aren't very polite to others with ignorant views such as the one you just espoused.

 

[Booze Zombie]

An armed society is a murderous society.

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

Untrue, American's are armed and they aren't polite, to eachother or anyone else.

Canadians are largely unarmed and we're fairly polite, to others and eachother.

Explain that?

Perhaps we aren't very polite to others with ignorant views such as the one you just espoused.

Good point, I made a pretty silly snap comment, however, American's have a VERY bad reputation aboad for being rude and boorish.Whether or not it's deserved is questionable, from personal experience I can say that I have indeed met more than a few rude Americans travelling both in Canada and Europe, however I did meet one VERY rude Canadian couple in Rome, they were from Vancouver. Anyway, the real point I was trying to make is, fine, you're the biggest baddest kid with the most guns on the block, yet everyone sees you as very rude? How does that make an "armed society" a "polite society"?

 

[tsb247]

Untrue, American's are armed and they aren't polite, to eachother or anyone else.

Canadians are largely unarmed and we're fairly polite, to others and eachother.

Explain that?

I can explain that very easily.

That is a harsh generalization/blanket stereotype most likely gathered from having little to no contact with many Americans. You obviously haven't been to the right parts of the country, because the people are quite nice where I come from. Oh, and I forgot... I lot of them are armed. They don't all carry guns in the streets, but many are gun owners.

I don't mind Canadians at all... In fact I kinda like them, but seriously... We need not stereotypes here. It only leads to heated arguments about nothing.

 

[Sane Man]

Untrue, American's are armed and they aren't polite, to eachother or anyone else.

Canadians are largely unarmed and we're fairly polite, to others and eachother.

Explain that?

Perhaps we aren't very polite to others with ignorant views such as the one you just espoused.

Good point, I made a pretty silly snap comment, however, American's have a VERY bad reputation aboad for being rude and boorish.Whether or not it's deserved is questionable, from personal experience I can say that I have indeed met more than a few rude Americans travelling both in Canada and Europe, however I did meet one VERY rude Canadian couple in Rome, they were from Vancouver. Anyway, the real point I was trying to make is, fine, you're the biggest baddest kid with the most guns on the block, yet everyone sees you as very rude? How does that make an "armed society" a "polite society"?

Hey, thank you for not flying off the handle, you are much more mature than most posters I've made a comment to.

As for polite, I think it is meant for criminals. If criminals know that anyone they could target could technically be carrying a gun it certainly puts the potential victim on the same playing field as the criminal in question. Who knows if Granny is packing or not? Is it worth the risk? Most criminals simply want to scare you and be on their way with what they got.

So I think in this context we talk about a armed society is a polite (aka not committing crimes) because you've negated an advantage that a home invader, or mugger has.

As for America's reputation as being rude, I'm sure it's not unfounded just like any stereotype. However you cannot judge the entire nation by the few people you've met or encounters you've had. Every nation has stereotypes, but they are just that, a stereotype. I mean I'm sure you don't talk about hockey 24/7 and drink maple syrup from the bottle instead of having water?

Every country has those things, and hopefully people you meet from other nations will not judge you based on those. If they do they certainly aren't being a very good "ambassador" of sorts in representing their own country.

 

[notmyoldaccount]

Sounds like a good time to learn some Kung-Fu if you live in the UK, cause if you get mugged you're going to be unarmed while your assailant will surely not be.

Most probably they won't be armed with anything more than a knife if you're being mugged.

The most common muggings in the UK are just 3 people on 1 and a beating and then having your phone/wallet nicked if you don't just hand it over.

 

[tsb247]

An armed society is a murderous society.

According to your logic, you would have me assume that in a society without guns there would be no murders. That is not only ignorant, it is stupid. I could go a step further and say that (using your logic again), I am part of an armed society, and therefore I must be a murderer. Yeah, that doesn't hold water either.

 

[fix-the-spade]

Crap, I remember the last time this thread (with this exact title) came round, now I feel old...

Anyways.
An armed society is not polite, it's fearful.
They very attitude towards guns in the US is one based on fear. The biggest argument I hear for them is home/self defense. As if there is constantly some nameless evil that can only be defeated by bullets. The entire ethos for having guns plays off the fear that someone is constantly out to get you.
It's slightly off topic but I think the attitude towards the guns is more important than having or not having them.
Deer Rifles, break shotguns and sporting pistols are a bit different, you can get those here in the UK, I can't remember ever seeing those advertised for 'home defense'.

More Polite : England or America?

That's... a difficult question actually.

 

[killereddy]

Personally I'm not against having guns, I think that the control is the major problem. It's far too easy for an unstable person to obtain a gun. Not to mention if a normal, respectable citizen gets caught in a heat of the moment encounter where they might lose their cool over something.

Guns are too much of a iWin button. They're the first thing people seem to go for if they possess one. Using a gun is higher up on most reaction lists than discussing the conflict or hugging it out.

however if everyone had a gun a crazy person with one wouldn't last three seconds before BAM!

 

[CapnGod]

An Armed Society is a Polite Society?

No, an armed society is a fearful society.

Ok, this may have been said, but I'm still working my way through the thread. Ever gone in to a gun shop? I'm not talking about a Bass Pro here, I'm talking about an honest to goodness dedicated gun shop. There are a couple I go to in my area, and when you walk in, everyone behind the counter is armed. There is a holster on the hip with a loaded gun in the holster. These tend to be very friendly places. One isn't scared upon entry. You walk in, and they are ready to help you and are exceedingly friendly about it. It's not forced, either. It's genuine. They love guns, they love talking about guns, and they want to help you.

You also have a little peace of mind, since you're fairly confident that anyone walking in with the intention of robbing the store is suicidal. Given the recent shootings on college campuses, Columbine, and several malls in the last few years, you don't have quite the same confidence. But, in a store like that, even if someone were to decide to walk in with intent, it would likely end in poor fashion for them with as many armed people are there.

Gun control advocates love to scream that concealed carry laws will turn a state into the old west and that there will be shoot outs occurring on an almost daily basis. Their fears have not materialized. Show me the massive, sustained spikes in gun violence. As quoted above, you can see that there has been a drop off in crime rates in the United States since about 1993. It has been since then that many states have enacted concealed carry laws. Causal? Perhaps not. Then again, in some small way, it probably has contributed.

Look at Florida and the District of Columbia. They're right next to each other. In violent crime stats, Florida has lower numbers than DC. There are two categories with higher rates of crime, and those have no direct human interaction. Overall rates of crimes are lower, too. And Florida has a population 31 times larger. Florida was also one of the first states to enact a shall issue permit law.

Does that quick comparison necessarily prove anything? No. I can't in point of fact prove it. Does it make sense? I'd have to argue that it does likely contribute. Play this little thought game for just a second. You're staking out a convenience store to rob. You've seen a van pull up and a woman get out and go in. Not much threat. Looks like a fairly good target right about now. Another van pulls up, and another woman gets out. Only this time you see an NRA sticker on the bumper. Does it mean she's armed? No. Does it increase the chances? Probably. Does that convenience store look less attractive? I'd argue that for me, at least, until NRA lady leaves, it's definitely less attractive.

While nothing I've said has proven anything, I think it points toward an armed society being a polite one.

 

[notmyoldaccount]

I take it a police society means that the society is governed by a strong authoritarian body of laws which is violently, sternly enforced. Research will show you that most dictatorships quickly begin illegalizing weapons for general public ownership and use, usually under the pretense of domestic social security. This leaves the armed forces of the ruling establishment with all of the firepower, making the civilian body extremely vulnerable and easily pacified.

That is a police society.

Pretty sure you mean a police state. And what you say about banning weapons meaning that a country is turning into a dictatorship is not necessarily true. We (the British) gave up our right to all guns freely. We don't allow people to carry knives in public unless they need it for their work.

And when you say that therefore the police are in control- the majority of our police are not armed with anything other than CS spray and telescopic batons. Apart from specialised units (CO19) and airport police who will be dealing with armed criminals and terrorists.

EDIT: OH LOL. I only just realised that you just misread the OP... hahaha.

 

[Booze Zombie]

According to your logic, you would have me assume that in a society without guns there would be no murders. That is not only ignorant, it is stupid. I could go a step further and say that (using your logic again), I am part of an armed society, and therefore I must be a murderer. Yeah, that doesn't hold water either.

Did I say that? No. I said that a society with weapons think that they're entitled to murder criminals and such. They're murderous.
I've noted a lot of Americans with this attitude (in discussions and such).

I never said that being part of an armed society makes you a murderer, it just makes it easier (and you more willing) to murder a person perceived as a criminal.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/murderous

1 a: having the purpose or capability of murder.

What with the point of a weapon being to kill, it only makes sense that having an armed populace would make them murderous. That's the point, right?

Quotey stuff.

Actually, I think he was trying to say that it's a fearful society because they have to buy weapons to feel safe and happy.

Anyway, I wouldn't feel happy in America unless I was wearing a bullet-proof vest rigged up with fake blood (to fake out any gunman that decides it's a good idea to shoot me up).

 

[notmyoldaccount]

Already done

I am also looking into getting another pair of bracers, a pair that will be of some use. I don't like the idea of arming myself when going out (and I think my Bo-Staff would stand out a bit) but I don't want to go over the top and buy a full suit of armour.

I've been thinking how I could make a bo staff that could fit in my pocket, yet be telescoping from both ends, and not break easily.
It's a toughie unless I think of making it out of diamond. And it would have to be tapered.

Also: good reading, if you can filter through the fire! [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.68867#642579]

Pretty sure you would look like a weeaboo naruto fan walking around with bracers and a bo-staff. Also you'd break the prevention of crime act 1953 banning possession of offensive weapons in a public place and the criminal justice act 1988 banning the manufacture of offensive weapons.