An observation on tropes against the Female gender

[deadish]

I just a minor revelation.

Bella from Twilight will give most feminist fits. She is everything someone like Anita Sarkeesian will hate.

Yet, Bella and the Twilight series is immensely popular among the female gender. Twilight, and by extension the character Bella, is commercially viable - the operative phrase being "commercially viable".

This isn't a case of the bad male gender oppressing the female gender. Twilight was written by a women - a now very wealthy women. Males aren't the ones dragging females to these movies to be "educated", rather it's girlfriends that are dragging their reluctant boyfriends and daughters dragging their fathers to these movies.

In the light of all this, perhaps SJW are barking up the wrong tree if they are interested in getting more of the female gender into gaming.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

I just a minor revelation.

Bella from Twilight will give most feminist fits. She is everything someone like Anita Sarkeesian will hate.

Yet, Bella and the Twilight series is immensely popular among the female gender. Twilight, and by extension the character Bella, is commercially viable - the operative phrase being "commercially viable".

This isn't a case of the bad male gender oppressing the female gender. Twilight was written by a women - a now very wealthy women. Males aren't the ones dragging females to these movies to be "educated", rather it's girlfriends that are dragging their reluctant boyfriends and daughters dragging their fathers to these movies.

In the light of all this, perhaps SJW are barking up the wrong tree if they are interested in getting more of the female gender into gaming.

surely the most extremist defenders of social justice will bark some stupid garbage like "they have internalized oppression" or something like that

there are certain things that appeal more to women and certain things that appeal more to men, theres nothing intolerant about that

 

[Silvanus]

In the light of all this, perhaps SJW are barking up the wrong tree if they are interested in getting more of the female gender into gaming.

Didn't anybody tell you? "SJW"s are a monster-under-the-bed. They're a fanciful story people tell young forumites and gamers to keep them on the straight and narrow. Old Norse women used to tell children that if they stayed out too late, a troll might get them; mothers and fathers tell their kids that if they're bad, or stay up too late, Santa will judge them naughty. Similar tales are told around the campfire to the impressionable about the Social Justice Warrior, a creature-of-the-night with glowing red eyes and an insatiable hunger to ruin your favourite hobbies.

Don't worry, youngster. Such creatures do not really exist: there's no reason to sleep with the light on, or check under the bed before you get in. They're just a convenient boogyman. A Will-o'-the-Wisp. A distraction.

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

I swear I'm going to start a blacklist of anyone who uses 'SJW' without irony from now on.

Is the point of this thread 'women can write crap that perpetuates BS as well'? Huh, who'd a thunk it... It's almost as if some of the problems being discussed are so fundamental, it affects all kinds of different folk in different ways.

I'm not sure what the emphasis on "commercially viable" is, either. So, because a unit is shifted - that makes something right? Ethical? Free from critique or reflection, perhaps? Not sure where the author's wealth comes into this, either.

Now, where's my official Social Justice notepad and pen...

 

[Grumman]

While I wouldn't draw any broader conclusions from it, I do have a problem with /Fifty Shades of Grey/ and its success - not because it's about BDSM, but because it's /not/ about BDSM. I don't have a problem with media like this if people know what they're dealing with - I don't buy into the idea that GTA turns people into criminals, for example - but /Fifty Shades'/ misrepresentation of domestic abuse and rape as BDSM is something that bothers me because neither the author nor the fans seem to get that distinction.

 

[clinicalPsychologist]

I thought they liked it for Edward and Jacob, not Bella; she has like zero personality und is just a blank to self-insert.
I thought she was quite mean, always complaining about their friends how they are boring and everything, then Edward sparkled in the wood and I stopped reading.

Yeah Bella is a bad role model but seriously; having a sparkling vampire boyfriend who will even stalk you and do everything for you is probably the selling point, not Bella. Which is creepy enough, but well, teenage girls...

 

[EternallyBored]

First off, this is in the wrong section, this really doesn't belong in the gaming forum, so I'm calling it right now, this thread is either on the fast track to getting locked, or moved into off-topic.

On-topic, no, "SJW's" aren't really barking up the wrong tree, as most people who criticize Twilight are very much aware that it is written by a woman and popular with other women. Only the most hypocritical feminist won't acknowledge that women are perfectly capable of writing and liking things that are criticized for its gender representation or portrayal.

The second problem with this argument is, why exactly should feminists care about the popularity of something before they criticize it? People don't follow that advice when they criticize CoD, or reality television, or Big Bang Theory, all popular titles criticized for being bad for various reasons, why exactly does feminist critique specifically have to bow to the argument from popularity fallacy? Women liking something doesn't automatically make a critique of sexist elements null and void, plenty of things liked by women and minority populations in America have later been derided as sexist or racist by later generations after cultural attitudes about things shift.

Hell many of the feminist critiques I've seen of the series are far milder than the elitist literature snobs who deride the series as the downfall of young adult literature, some even acknowledge that the problems with the series are often rooted in romantic tropes in general. There are even feminists that look at the unintentionally abusive relationship the main characters have and still say the overall story isn't as bad as the anti-Twilight crowd likes to make it out to be.

Overall, I find your point to be largely irrelevant to gaming, and ultimately uncompelling.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

First off, this is in the wrong section, this really doesn't belong in the gaming forum, so I'm calling it right now, this thread is either on the fast track to getting locked, or moved into off-topic.

On-topic, no, "SJW's" aren't really barking up the wrong tree, as most people who criticize Twilight are very much aware that it is written by a woman and popular with other women. Only the most hypocritical feminist won't acknowledge that women are perfectly capable of writing and liking things that are criticized for its gender representation or portrayal.

The second problem with this argument is, why exactly should feminists care about the popularity of something before they criticize it? People don't follow that advice when they criticize CoD, or reality television, or Big Bang Theory, all popular titles criticized for being bad for various reasons, why exactly does feminist critique specifically have to bow to the argument from popularity fallacy? Women liking something doesn't automatically make a critique of sexist elements null and void, plenty of things liked by women and minority populations in America have later been derided as sexist or racist by later generations after cultural attitudes about things shift.

Hell many of the feminist critiques I've seen of the series are far milder than the elitist literature snobs who deride the series as the downfall of young adult literature, some even acknowledge that the problems with the series are often rooted in romantic tropes in general. There are even feminists that look at the unintentionally abusive relationship the main characters have and still say the overall story isn't as bad as the anti-Twilight crowd likes to make it out to be.

Overall, I find your point to be largely irrelevant to gaming, and ultimately uncompelling.

...

People don't follow that advice when they criticize CoD, or reality television, or Big Bang Theory, all popular titles criticized for being bad for various reasons

are you seriously implying something is bad because is not feminist?

besides, what i think the OP means is that, how can something be sexist, and at the same time be largely enjoyed by the people towards it is supposedly sexist

 

[Rayce Archer]

Twilight is stupid twee shit for stupid twee little girls. Any grown women who like it are fucking creepers, just like all the grown women who are suspiciously fond of Harry Potter.

A better example of women embracing something anti-feminist would be the explosive popularity of the 50 shades books a while back. Aside from being atrociously written, they more or less glorify a woman's sexual submission to a total asshole because he has a big dick and lots of money. If the MRA crowd wrote a romance novel it would be 50 Shades of Gray. I attribute its success mostly to the fact that not many mainstream publishers had tried marketing straight hard porn to women- Success could have gone to any lady with a dirty mind and the stomach to type Vagina but some hack who likes sub/dom got there first.

I don't think the success of such literature does anything to discredit feminists, nor do I think it's any specific feminist's responsibility to call out such things, nor do I think it represents a failing of other feminist rhetoric to exclude these works. However, I think it's fair to say any woman in the developed Western world who shells out money for crappy novels to fuel wank fantasies about a rich dude bossing her around is doing a hell of disservice to the legions of feminists who helped her get to the point where she can MAKE such a tasteless decision.

 

[solemnwar]

I don't know what rock you've been living under, but feminists have been VERY critical of both Twilight and Fifty Shades of Grey, both of which glorify abusive relationships and the absolutely horrifying amount of dependency both female protagonists have on their male counterparts.

Also the way any of the isms work is that they are ingrained into a culture, including the gender/race/whatever that it hurts the most. If sexism and misogyny weren't carried within women as well, it wouldn't be so hard to point out and fix. Most feminists I've talked with have discussed about how they've had to think long and hard about themselves and the beliefs they used to hold, and still find themselves stumbling into societal pitfalls.

For example, "I'm not like those OTHER girls!" I.e. "I don't like fashion or talk all the time about boys so obviously I'm superior to those vapid girls!" It's pretty terrifying how much my gender is raised to hate itself.

 

[C. Cain]

(...) People don't follow that advice when they criticize CoD, or reality television, or Big Bang Theory, all popular titles criticized for being bad for various reasons (...)

are you seriously implying something is bad because is not feminist?

(...)

I'm not EternallyBored, but two things:

Firstly, no, that's not what s/he seems to be implying. S/He's criticising the concept of argumentum ad populum. I.e. popularity and quality are not causally related.

Secondly, I can only speak for myself, but yes. Things are bad because they are not feminist (feminism being defined as advocating and supporting the rights and equality of women).

besides, what i think the OP means is that, how can something be sexist, and at the same time be largely enjoyed by the people towards it is supposedly sexist

That's exactly what EternallyBored is addressing.

Either way, how can something be bad for your health and at the same time be largely enjoyed by the people towards it is supposedly harmful?

 

[AlouetteSK]

Hmmmm.... Proof please. I would like to see an example of a self-proclaimed feminist also gushing about any one of the novels mentioned.

 

[Rayce Archer]

For example, "I'm not like those OTHER girls!" I.e. "I don't like fashion or talk all the time about boys so obviously I'm superior to those vapid girls!" It's pretty terrifying how much my gender is raised to hate itself.

In America we balance a lot of a woman's future on whether she accepts or rejects a traditionally female role in life. To lead others, a woman may be pressured to emulate the behavior of male leaders within and beyond the scope of her leadership role, while a woman who eschews traditionally female behaviors may be deemed a less fit mother or spouse than one who does not.

This creates a fertile ground for women to identify themselves based on separation from, or adherence to, a general female stereotype. And it isn't just feminists distancing themselves from women who they perceive as not caring about feminism; women who want to socially ingratiate themselves to men often do the same thing, rejecting other women as a population whose values do not appeal to their idea of what men want. I've heard more women dismissively use the word "feminazi" than I have men.

None of this is helped by the fact that the core values our society upholds for women are totally berserk: the ideal American woman is hard-working but totally devoid of ambition; sexually adventurous and accessible, yet completely committal and accommodating; intelligent but not domineering; impossibly fit yet not physically powerful; and 20 years old with a 40 year old's emotional maturity. In fact it's only in recent decades that this ridiculous dichotomy has been a target for criticism- many female writers in the 1700s and 1800s present the double standard of idealized female behavior as a worthy goal that young girls should strive lifelong to achieve.

 

[Colour Scientist]

People don't follow that advice when they criticize CoD, or reality television, or Big Bang Theory, all popular titles criticized for being bad for various reasons

are you seriously implying something is bad because is not feminist?

Lolwut?

How did you even draw that conclusion from what he/she said?

The point, from my interpretation, was that people criticise media all of the time for a million different reasons and the popularity doesn't come into play. The popularity of The Big Bang Theory doesn't make it immune to criticisms regarding its depiction of nerdy basement dweller stereotypes, its use of cheap humour or one of the many other criticisms people have launched against it.

This is understood by most people and yet feminist critique of problematic characters, plots or character elements is frequently dismissed because the thing in question is popular or is popular among women specifically.

As an aside, both Twilight and Fifty Shades of Grey have been the victims of intense criticism and scrutiny for a long time.

 

[Max_imus]

Well now, if I told you that key figures fighting AGAINST female suffrage in the US back in the day were actually women, would your mind be blown by the paradox? Of course not, individuals have individual preferences. These preferences are formed by the individual's upbringing and social context. So yes, it has something to do with how women are told to feel and behave in society.

Also

[...] popularity and quality are not causally related.

what s/he said.

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

1. This shouldn't be in gaming discussion if you're talking about a movie. Yes I realise you mentioned gaming at the very end, but it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
2. The popularity of something does not restrict it from critique, neither does the source said thing.
3. I don't know if it will give "most feminists fits", because everyone has a different idea of what feminism is, including the people who call themselves feminists.

I can already smell this turning into a tiny shitstorm.

 

[vallorn]

I swear I'm going to start a blacklist of anyone who uses 'SJW' without irony from now on.

Is the point of this thread 'women can write crap that perpetuates BS as well'? Huh, who'd a thunk it... It's almost as if some of the problems being discussed are so fundamental, it affects all kinds of different folk in different ways.

I'm not sure what the emphasis on "commercially viable" is, either. So, because a unit is shifted - that makes something right? Ethical? Free from critique or reflection, perhaps? Not sure where the author's wealth comes into this, either.

Now, where's my official Social Justice notepad and pen...

I kind of agree the term get's thrown around without due care. Kind of like how the Pro Corruption crowd throw Misogynist around.

The person making that note was making a specific note that, in general, it's not men who promote sexist stereotypes that hold women back like the Twilight books do. It's women holding other women back and the approach that some people have to painting a group of men as the boogeyman oppressing women is therefore a falsehood that helps nobody.

The authors wealth came into it as an example of how successful she was and how many women liked her books (and the audience for twilight is MASSIVELY woman focused).

I think you left it under the sofa cushions.

 

[C. Cain]

The person making that note was making a specific note that, in general, it's not men who promote sexist stereotypes that hold women back like the Twilight books do.

The person making that note would be wrong then, but it's still a great example for blaming the victim. Kudos.

It's women holding other women back and the approach that some people have to painting a group of men as the boogeyman oppressing women is therefore a falsehood that helps nobody.

What? As opposed to painting all women as the scheming boogeyman oppressing themselves? Those dastardly women; ruining everything for themselves, just to blame poor, innocent men.

 

[Saetha]

Twilight is stupid twee shit for stupid twee little girls. Any grown women who like it are fucking creepers, just like all the grown women who are suspiciously fond of Harry Potter.

A better example of women embracing something anti-feminist would be the explosive popularity of the 50 shades books a while back. Aside from being atrociously written, they more or less glorify a woman's sexual submission to a total asshole because he has a big dick and lots of money. If the MRA crowd wrote a romance novel it would be 50 Shades of Gray. I attribute its success mostly to the fact that not many mainstream publishers had tried marketing straight hard porn to women- Success could have gone to any lady with a dirty mind and the stomach to type Vagina but some hack who likes sub/dom got there first.

Hey! S'wrong with grown women liking Harry Potter? It's called nostalgia.

And secondly - oh dear god, no, Fifty Shades of Gray is FAR from the first smutty novel for women - far from the first smutty novel for women that was made by a mainstream publisher. Fifty Shades of Gray was just the novel that, for whatever bizarro reason, made people realize that women consume and enjoy porn, too. Some of this attention was probably because it was a reskinned Twilight fan fic.

Women have been enjoying smut for years. It's a staple of any fanfic community. I don't know why people didn't seem to realize this before the mess that was Fifty Shades of Gray oozed into existence.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

(...) People don't follow that advice when they criticize CoD, or reality television, or Big Bang Theory, all popular titles criticized for being bad for various reasons (...)

are you seriously implying something is bad because is not feminist?

(...)

I'm not EternallyBored, but two things:

Firstly, no, that's not what s/he seems to be implying. S/He's criticising the concept of argumentum ad populum. I.e. popularity and quality are not causally related.

Secondly, I can only speak for myself, but yes. Things are bad because they are not feminist (feminism being defined as advocating and supporting the rights and equality of women).

besides, what i think the OP means is that, how can something be sexist, and at the same time be largely enjoyed by the people towards it is supposedly sexist

That's exactly what EternallyBored is addressing.

Either way, how can something be bad for your health and at the same time be largely enjoyed by the people towards it is supposedly harmful?

not really, more like, how can something offend you and yet you still watch it?

maybe girls like these things because they dont see anything offensive about them, maybe they dont think the films discriminate agaisnt them...

or maybe all the shirtless guys are brainwashing them with their abs