Anime and the Issues We Have WIth It: Culture Shock (Picture Heavy)

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Saint of M

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Sorry this took so long, been busy with school so hope you enjoy. AND YES, PLEASE CALL ME POUT ON MY BS because I've had to go with the few points and I may have made this too long already so here I go.


It should be obvious THAT Japan IS NOT a western culture. It has shared number of traits with the western world, but it is defiantly not western by nature. So why am I stating the obvious? Because this is one of the more genuine areas of complaint against anime. While one can say the same about Great Britton and France, in this case this takes it two a whole new level. And it is not just Westerners that get confused. Many manga and anime creators, while flattered westerners love their stuff, but are justifiably confused that we do take such an interest in their material as they intended it for their own people.

So what?s different about Japan when compared to the Western world? First off it is not a Christian Nation. Yes there are Christians there, which includes enough Mormons to warrant two of their temples to be built, but that is not the main two religions. Those would be the Shinto and Buddhist faiths, with the former being the biggest of the two. They have their own beliefs, their own sets of right and wrong. However the mass majority of Japan?s do?s and do not?s are not found in their holy texts but their social etiquette, which is largely on par with anything the Bible will tell you to do or not to do. Yes this is an over simplification, with a large number of glaring differences. You want me to go into another 20 page essay? Didn?t think so. Just in case, here's a picture for you.



In any case this leads to just as much confusion on the Land of the Rising Sun?s end when it comes to Christianity as their faiths have with us. Again, while there are a good chunk of Christians in that nation, most people don?t understand that faith or have a real clear idea in their heads about it. In many respects the average Japanese understand Christianity about as well as the average American understands Voodoo or Islam. This is why we often see Christian symbols and icons in their material, such as the reference to angels in Neo Genesis Evangelion, but are about as accurate as a drunk blind man with a shotgun. An overstatement, but when they?re only a handful of anime like Trigun and Blassreiter showing it accurately, it?s one that sadly fits. This isn?t done to be intentionally offensive, despite how some people take it. They just found something that looked or sounded cool and just went with it (not that the western world hasn?t done that before).



A good example is the cross. Just because you see it doesn?t mean it holds the same significance to Christians. It just looks cool. And when a character gets literally crucified? Chances are that?s not significant either. When Jesuit priests first started preaching Christianity to Japan, many warlords didn?t think much on their teachings, however they thought crucifixion was a cool way to kill someone and used it in their executions. So when we see it used in anime, it may not be as significant to the Japanese as it is to most westerners.



Another area of Japanese culture is sexuality. Up until some westernization, the Japanese people had nothing against homosexuality. They even didn?t think twice about two men having a loving relationship. Actually an inside joke amongst samurai was that that was the only way to find love as they had to sleep with a katana when they slept with their wife. Why? Because as a samurai herself, if the alliance by marriage didn?t work out, she?d most likely kill him.

This leads us to another point: roles of women. While many areas of Japans views of women seem restrictive at best, and long since outdated at worse, especially from a western standpoint, in general Japanese women tend to have the same number of freedoms as their western counterparts. In fact I could say maybe more. Why? Because in many cases the Japanese woman had to pull as much weight at the man, especially in the case of the samurai cast. If a samurai went to war, his wife was responsible for defending the home, and many samurai women were well versed in the long bow and the naganita (think of it as a Japanese glaive or halberd). On occasion, they would even use these skills on the field on battle.



The Traditional house wife also had more responsibilities. Pretty much everything in the home she had power over, and she had power over a lot. To name just a few things on the top of my head, this included but was not limited to: cleaning, all the major purchasing decisions such as the computer or plasma TV, care for the children, what schools they went to, every other aspect of their lives, and how much their children and husbands were allowed to spend at a given time (that?s right, the bread winner was on an allowance). This even allowed many to have great influences in local and not so local polatics.

If anything else, gender roles are more finite, and as a general rule, Japan still as a lot of social etiquette that enforces this. This means that while things are still traditional in a sense, the traditions are no more restrictive then the Americans or any other western nation, and for all intensive purposes, nor more liberal either.

But there is something else: You see more strong women characters in Japanese film then in at least the American, and many western. Sure, you have your Le Fem Nikitas, you Xena Warrior Princess, your Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but as a general rule they seem to be the exception to the rule. If you look at a lot of TV and film, especially the cartoons, I?d say there are for every ten movies or tv series, there are 2 female oriented, which will have the largest female cast; 5 that either gender can enjoy but the cast of characters will be a sausage fest at best and the purest form of the Smurfett Principle at worse; and the rest will be guy oriented stuff, so also a Sausage fest. While we have plenty of female villans, with some of the best being in the Disney and James Bond Variety, we lack a lot of heros.

Marvel?s Wasp? Iron Man, Hulk, Captain America, Spiderman, Wolverine, Thor, Ghost Rider, Johnny Storm, Blade, Punisher, Dead Pool.

Xena Warrior Princess? Robin Hood, Conan the Barbarian, Sinbad the Sailor, Ivan Ho, Jack Sparrow, Hercules, King Arthur, Eragon, Drizzit.

This isn?t to say that Japanese do not use damsel?s in distress, as many characters play that part well in too many damn anime as is, but you?ll be more likely to see a female character that can hold her own in a bar brawl in that when compared to most western material. Why is this the case? Well besides sex sells, many men find that a woman that can kick their butt is hot and women love a strong female character, and the fact women characters are pretty easy to make sexy, the Japanese have more mythos and history of strong women and girls, and we lack that to a certain degree.

Another area that is generally different from at least an American standpoint, more shades of grey in their entertainment. There are a lot of one dimensional characters in anime and other Japanese film, some of which is on my shelf or in my Netflix que, however the studios there are given a lot more free reign to give depth to their characters to something more than just one level of Good and Evil, Light and Dark, Jedi and Sith. In some cases the lines between who is good and who is evil, right and wrong, good guy and bad guy is simply a matter of what army are you are in.

A perfect example would be the wolf gods in Princess Mononoke. They are trying to defend their forrest home, and are waging war with the overly destructive humans. At the same time they have no moral qualms about how many humans they kill, or who the humans are fighting for. The one true exception is their human adopted daughter, who they took in when her parents threw them at them to save themselves.



Another is Kakashi from Naruto. He?s delightfully goofy, reads pornographic literature in front of children, and one of the most dangerous ninja assassins alive. He has an easy going personality, and some of the worst survivor?s guilt imaginable. His whole being is a balancing act that is hard to manage.



LeLouch is another one. If the old adage ?the Road to Hell is paved with good intentions,? then this guy is the one who best exemplifies this as everything he does he does to make a better world for his little sister. That said, he still kinda goes nuts and it is very hard to tell if he?s good , evil, or true neutral at times.



The history is another thing that?s different. While medieval knights died out at the start of the dawn of gunpowder, Samurai often adapted to it, though most preferred the more traditional weapons as close combat was where they found their honor. Still, the samurai warrior survived up until the mid to late 1800?s when the last samurai revolt had ended in a one sided battle (Guess who won). That said, they have a stronger connection to their past, in the same way America did with cowboys.

Well that?s all I can cover for today. While there are a few things all cultures share in common, the Eastern and Western World are two different animals, and this leaves much loss in translation. Yes I know I?m skipping the language barrier, but I plan on going on that in more detail in the Sub Vs Dub Debate in a couple of issues. The next one will be on clichés and as I?ll be trying to cover as many as I can, so I?ll have pictures.
 

RoyalSorceress

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I agree with what you said.
That's the main reason why I think one of the worst things a dubbing company can do is "Americanize" it.
I like learning about Japanese culture when I watch certain Anime, and I know I can't be the only one.
 

Saint of M

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Wow, I wasn't expecting a response this quickly. Thanks.
 

Casual Shinji

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You make very good points - one of which I didn't even realize - but I think you barely scratched the surface in regards to the difference in culture. But you would probably need to write a book in order to really delve into this subject matter.

There is one thing I've always found interesting though, and that's seeing how anime views western culture. There's something about seeing your own culture filtered through Japanese storytelling. There's this anime production called World Masterpiece Theater in which a lot of classic western novels have been made into anime shows, like Heidi: Girl of the Alps, The Moomins, The Adventures of Tom Sawyer, The Swiss Family Robinson etc. These shows had this calm and mellow esthetic about them that you never really saw in actual western kids shows where everything needed to frantic and quick-paced.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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You touched on a whole lot of different little things without saying enough about anything...sorta makes me wonder the point of it all to be honest. I know this stuff in depth but to someone who has no clue it would hardly constitute an informing read. It's more like a list of differences with no substance or direction. It feels like a "look how much I know about Japan" type post to be honest.


Oh and for god's sake, it's Evangelion, not Evangeline >_>. Evangeline is that goth-lolita vampire from Mahou Sensei Negima lol.







Aethren said:
I...I just died a little inside...

PS: It's LeLouch

Yeah, this too. XD


Oh and, it's Mononoke, not Monanoke...that's elementary stuff you're getting wrong here...
 

Jim Grim

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I like that everyone's calling you out on mispelling anime names, but no-one's mentioned the use of 'two' instead of 'to' in your intro.

Speaking as someone who doesn't really watch anime, but also doesn't really have a problem with most of it, I understand your point about differences in culture. However I think this piece could be better structured. Too much space is devoted to discussing the motives and personalities of different anime characters when it's not partcularly relevant to the purpose of this (article? essay?)
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Jim Grim said:
I like that everyone's calling you out on mispelling anime names, but no-one's mention the use of 'two' instead of 'to' in your intro.

Speaking as someone who doesn't really watch anime, but also doesn't really have a problem with most of it, I understand your point about differences in culture. However I think this piece could be better structured. Too much space is devoted to discussing the motives and personalities of different anime characters when it's not partcularly relevant to the purpose of this (article? essay?)

Well, he never proclaimed to know English, I'm fairly sure it's not his first language so I didn't find it necessary to touch on it...the names on the other hand are about anime, about what he wrote the whole topic on and presumably likes us to think he knows stuff about.

You sorta lose all credibility right away if you can't notice how different Evangeline or Lebuch are from the actual names of the things you're talking about.



Oh and if we wanna be picky, he typed the word "issues" on the title wrong too. :p
 

Anomynous 167

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RoyalSorceress said:
I agree with what you said.
That's the main reason why I think one of the worst things a dubbing company can do is "Americanize" it.
I like learning about Japanese culture when I watch certain Anime, and I know I can't be the only one.
Personally, I don't actually mind dubs "Americanising" (Which is clear is what you are doing, using the American spelling and all) stuff. That act itself, shows loyalty to the source by keeping an object as exotic as the source material intended it for it to be.
--------------------
Case and point: In the Poke`mon animation, rice balls/onigiri/whatever, an object which may have found at the Japanese equivelent of Donut King, is somewhat mundain (as well as edible)objecct in the source's route culture. To a foreigner, that food item may seem exhotic, and it could distract them from the plot (As they could interpret that as a red-hearing). Because of the inexoticness that the Japs have to the food, and the exoticness the foriegners find it, the translators must re-lable it as something that is equally mundain to the Americans:

The donut: An object that can be found at the American's equivalent of Donut King.
==================

In my opinion, the worst thing a dubbing company can do is not edit the imagery at all. After watching an episode of Naruto Shippuden's dub (Shut up, this is the only case of this happening that I know of), I noticed that they didn't alter the imagery for the credits, at all.
How was I supposed to know who voiced who, dirrected the animation, or flibbied the flabber mcdabber?
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Anomynous 167 said:
RoyalSorceress said:
I agree with what you said.
That's the main reason why I think one of the worst things a dubbing company can do is "Americanize" it.
I like learning about Japanese culture when I watch certain Anime, and I know I can't be the only one.
Personally, I don't actually mind dubs "Americanising" (Which is clear is what you are doing, using the American spelling and all) stuff. That act itself, shows loyalty to the source by keeping an object as exotic as the source material intended it for it to be.
--------------------
Case and point: In the Poke`mon animation, rice balls/onigiri/whatever, an object which may have found at the Japanese equivelent of Donut King, is somewhat mundain (as well as edible)objecct in the source's route culture. To a foreigner, that food item may seem exhotic, and it could distract them from the plot (As they could interpret that as a red-hearing). Because of the inexoticness that the Japs have to the food, and the exoticness the foriegners find it, the translators must re-lable it as something that is equally mundain to the Americans:

The donut: An object that can be found at the American's equivalent of Donut King.
==================

In my opinion, the worst thing a dubbing company can do is not edit the imagery at all. After watching an episode of Naruto Shippuden's dub (Shut up, this is the only case of this happening that I know of), I noticed that they didn't alter the imagery for the credits, at all.
How was I supposed to know who voiced who, dirrected the animation, or flibbied the flabber mcdabber?

Anime is not American though, it's meant to be exotic, that's the whole point behind watching anime and not cartoons. No matter how many rice balls you turn into subways you still have a buttload of Shinto-inspired monsters duking it out in Pokemon...so since it's already going to be way more exotic than most things why not preserve the original form as well.
 

Anomynous 167

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Dreiko said:
Anime is not American though, it's meant to be exotic, that's the whole point behind watching anime and not cartoons. No matter how many rice balls you turn into subways you still have a buttload of Shinto-inspired monsters duking it out in Pokemon...so since it's already going to be way more exotic than most things why not preserve the original form as well.
1. Animations are cartoons.
2. It is not trying to be exhotic, it is applying the culture of the audience.
3. You are saying that Walt Disney is unamerican... How could you?
 

Tomo Stryker

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Wow, this is genuinely a good read. I'm not going to agree with all of it, but there is something about using crucifixion in anime that is a massive turn off. I'm not Catholic, but using a religious symbol that you know little to nothing about is insulting no matter what it is.
An example would be if I took Buddhism and changed it to Huddhism and made the bad guy believe in that faith.

I dunno, probably wrong. If so, don't hesitate to rip into me.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Anomynous 167 said:
Dreiko said:
Anime is not American though, it's meant to be exotic, that's the whole point behind watching anime and not cartoons. No matter how many rice balls you turn into subways you still have a buttload of Shinto-inspired monsters duking it out in Pokemon...so since it's already going to be way more exotic than most things why not preserve the original form as well.
1. Animations are cartoons.
2. It is not trying to be exhotic, it is applying the culture of the audience.
3. You are saying that Walt Disney is unamerican... How could you?
Cartoons are a form of animation, not the other way around.

Animation entails multiple things such as CGI stuff (such as Pixar movies) or Claymation or Anime or Cartoons, each a distinct thing with it's own features and characteristics.


It is not trying to be exotic but it doesn't mean it IS not exotic. Everything about it is exotic no matter how much appropriation one does. Thus, since being exotic is unavoidable, the will to mess up just a little bit of it which doesn't affect the big picture one bit is problematic.


Walt Disney was American, what that meant then and what it means now are two separate things. In current existence, there is a vast well of knowledge about things thus people can identify more of them and learn more about them than they could back then. This in turn allows for people to generally be aware of what fits within their culture and what does not. Back then people would buy anything as long as someone of authority was the seller.
 

Toriver

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This is very well-written and one of the best analyses of anime I have read in a long time, especially considering the particular focus you chose for this edition. I would agree that you didn't really go into as much depth as you could on each point, but there's only so much that one person can write or read in a single forum post without it getting to be too much. I would suggest that if you wanted to, you could take each of the points in this (religion, the role of women, moral gray areas, history) and make each of these its own topic in this series. Each would be a great read in itself, I'm sure. Keep this going! It's great!
 

Saint of M

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Thanks for the impute guys. I agree I could possibly do each of these main points on their own, or show examples of them throughout. I chose the points I did because there in lies much of the confusion with culture shock. It's different, and and these are some of the major areas that there people bring up (in no particular order, otherwise women and sexuality would be up top).
 

Etra488

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When women are depicted in anime, it is fulfilling one of three roles:
[ul][li]the fetishistic chick that men like to masturbate to[/li]
[li]the submissive victims that reinforce Patriarchy, that men need to own women for their own good[/li]
[li]no-character mary sues[/li][/ul]


The most generous I've ever seen an anime be to women was The Last Airbender, and that was an American anime. So does that show even qualify?

Don't twist history to make the argument that animes are progressive towards women or that Japanese culture is somehow superior to American culture, as your undertones clearly express. Women are exploited hardcore for their bodies. Japan has perverts too. Just like in America!

And that's the thing about cultural relativism; different is ok. But sexism is sexism. Every culture has it's highs and lows. And for me, having read about many a culture, god damnit it is a wallbanger to see again and again conversations begin with "don't judge, every culture is unique" and end with "but this culture is better."
 

Mr. In-between

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Anime has by and large, been garbage since about 2001. The last good series was Samurai 7 in 2004 and to date, has been the only time I've liked the new style of art. The blatant catering to pseudogoth teenagers and their tendency for the melodramatic has also contributed to my distaste for modern anime.
 

JabberwockyAi

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davidarmstrong488 said:
When women are depicted in anime, it is fulfilling one of three roles:
[ul][li]the fetishistic chick that men like to masturbate to[/li]
[li]the submissive victims that reinforce Patriarchy, that men need to own women for their own good[/li]
[li]no-character mary sues[/li][/ul]


The most generous I've ever seen an anime be to women was The Last Airbender, and that was an American anime. So does that show even qualify?

Don't twist history to make the argument that animes are progressive towards women or that Japanese culture is somehow superior to American culture, as your undertones clearly express. Women are exploited hardcore for their bodies. Japan has perverts too. Just like in America!

And that's the thing about cultural relativism; different is ok. But sexism is sexism. Every culture has it's highs and lows. And for me, having read about many a culture, god damnit it is a wallbanger to see again and again conversations begin with "don't judge, every culture is unique" and end with "but this culture is better."
Oh dear.

Yes, Japan (in general) certainly has some fucked up views of women, and blatant misogyny is certainly more prevalent in adult media. I will not argue that the burden of gender falls HEAVILY on women (but that's a whole 'nother rant). However, I believe the point the author was trying to make was that Japanese girls have have a significantly larger number of strong, well-rounded, action oriented role models geared specifically at them.

Magical girl and shojo series often feature strong protagonists and there is a mountain of these kinds of shows. Not to mention two of the best animators frequently (if not almost exclusively) feature strong, intelligent, and competent women as the protagonists (who are NOT objectified) of their films (Hayao Miyazaki and Satoshi Kon (RIP)) List off the number of animated television shows or films in America where the protagonist is a strong woman and the show/film is geared specifically at girls/women that's been done in the past five years. Actually, I'll throw you a little more leeway. The last decade.

The list is going to turn up rather short in comparison to the number of animated television series and films from Japan. It's partially that Japan has a bigger market for animation, but also because they know that young girls like cartoons as much as young boys. So girls? They get shows made for them that appeal to their interests. 90% of the time it's similar to the boys shows. Protagonist gets cool powers and a neat outfit, fights some baddies, is victorious and gets the love interest. That can be the plot of any standard shonen or shojo series and the only way you can tell which is which is what sex the protagonist is on the cover.

Anyway this is turning into a rant. Yes, Japan has some very outdated and sexist views. Some of their pornography is alarming (though whether or not it is a safe outlet for the darker aspects of the human psyche or something that contributes to sexism is another debate), and like any culture they are not perfect. The OP made the point that women in Japan have a similar level of equality as women in the west, it's just the specifics which are different. But they are progressive, in some places where Westerners don't even think to be progressive.
 

Thespian

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Eh, you made some good points. But remember that women can be depicted as awfully in anime, and really the positive male characters outnumber the positive female characters just as often in anime. Fairly interesting read though.
 

Mallefunction

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That still doesn't excuse the excess of big-titted cat-girls and the ridiculous panty-shots. Also, you can say that anime has more depth, but the thing is there is a LOT of shit anime out there. It's like any other medium where the good tends to outshine the bad, even the gloriously bad. There are plenty of American and European cartoons that have just as much depth, if not more than Japanese ones.