Anime and the Issues We Have WIth It: Culture Shock (Picture Heavy)

[hedges1001]

The part where you describe the situation like an operable tumor that the Japanese don't like, but also aren't interested in removing.

You compare kiddie porn to beauty pageants for children and spaghetti straps. You make comparisons so laughably false that the only conclusion one can come to is that you're trying to diminish the creepiness of tentacle rape.

Why are you making excuses for these atrocities in animation? Why are you even trying to compare these felonies to American behavior? Even if there was a comparison to be made, and there isn't, what makes you think dragging American culture through the mud somehow makes Japanese perversions not-bad?

It's alright for anime to have fucked up content so long as the West is bad too? NO! How about the Japanese clean up their act and the West will do the same. Don't say it's ok for anime to have low standards if you can find some American media that's similarly depraved.

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That you'd even try to make the argument makes me question your moral character. But it's ok; I only think you're ignorant. I don't think you're a monster. You just haven't given these subjects enough thought to know that you're best off just not talking about it.

There are some subjects you just don't talk about. The moral value of anime is one of them. It's a can of worms. Don't bother.

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Ok, I went back and reread your post in the context of my analysis of your linked thread. You are obviously not interested in addressing all aspects of this conversation.

I asked several questions that you won't answer. This broadcasts to me the shallow level of your thinking. I'm not going to put the work into debating this issue if you won't do the same.

And if you even thinking of pulling a "TL;DR" on me, then what the hell, because I waded through two of your monstrous rants, which were both rife with spelling and grammatical errors. You have the writing skills and mental focus of a High School student. Get your shit together man.

okay i think your being fairly heavy handed here this dood clearly has nothing against the states but rather he is trying to give a fair comparison as an english dood i see both jp and us equally from the start and M clearly has a clear head and is giving an essay to the world to shed some light on the differences/similarities between jp and US maybe you should calm it a little. im not gonna tell ya to stop that's your choice just remember essays are OPINION based with added facts and speculation

 

[Etra488]

I am not blind to the issues anime has, and I thought I made that clear in a few areas. Since I have not, I will make it clear now: Anime has a lot of areas the go into the man was not meant to go into parts of entertainment, and it shows. I do not condone it, and any justification I give is because the western world tends to be just as messed up.

Right there.

That's where I disagree. Beauty Pageants for children is not "as bad" as lolicon. You can criticize Beauty Pageants for children as creepy, involving adults with ulterior motives, but that's the furthest you can go with that example. And whatever your feelings about it, the truth is Beauty Pageants for children are not executed pursuiant towards sexual appetites.

However, that is the case for lolicon. Lolicon only exists at all because some creepy perverts like to jack off to little girls. You're taking an uncomfortable theory and placing it side-by-side with hardcore porn.

And then you're saying that it's inappropriate to criticize anime because "American culture is just as bad." No. American culture is not as bad.

The Japan has a very different attitude toward sexuality, and the fact that a character dresses in what we would perceive as stripper clothes in no way means that that character is meant to be viewed as objectified or subjugated.

You can say that, but when you present that material to an American or Western audience (I made it clear in a previous post that I would be using the two terms synonymously) then you have to be cognizant of the culture in play. Americans interpret sexual content, including costume decisions, to be sexual. Big surprise!

If you don't like the American reaction to anime costumes, then change the costumes or learn to deal with the criticism. Just because the Japanese are oblivious to it doesn't mean Americans will be.

This really is a lesson that "one-size-fits-all" isn't quite true. That anime has not caught on in American culture, after some 30 years of exposure, ought to indicate that.

 

[MasterOfWorlds]

I think that you pretty much hit most of it on the head. I think that you went in a little bit of a different direction than I would have, but to each their own.

I'd have just gone with the blanket statement, "Our cultures are different, as such, our norms, mores, and values are all going to be different with some overlapping elements." Unfortunately though, that probably wouldn't have been enough to keep people that are bound and determined to rage against from doing so.

 

[ScoopMeister]

I like that everyone's calling you out on mispelling anime names, but no-one's mention the use of 'two' instead of 'to' in your intro.

How about 'Great Britain' as opposed to 'Great Britton'?

 

[lord.jeff]

Your last two points are flawed, women generally are portrayed as damsels in anime, Princess Peach(even when she was the main character her powers were based on crying and being extremely Bi-polar), and Bleach with a story arc to save Rukia and then one to save Orihime, they're are exceptions where the females are as component as the males in anime but the same can be said for American media to. Second all societies have examples of grey characters, look at Marvel comics Punisher, Wolverine, Magneto and plus you have the whole Civil War arc that had the heroes openly opposing the law and fighting each other in some cases.

 

[Etra488]

Hi bringer.
[ul][li]I believe that some actions are universally bad, and cultures that do not condemn, or are permissive of those actions, are primitive.[/li]
[li]Anime is permissive towards the sexual fetishes that in Western culture are crimes if people acted on those feelings.[/li]
[li]You can totally condemn me for being culturally insensitive, but the bottom line is I can't take seriously a culture that allows the egregious content displayed in anime.[/li]
[li]The core tenant of multiculturalism is that the different beliefs aren't betrayed by ignorance or barbarity. For example, a cultural taboo against cleanliness is just silly. Grab a bar of soap and see how it extends your life by 30 years.[/li]
[li]Western culture should have made it clear that there is no utility to be found in denigrating women in the fashion that anime content routinely does. Female anime characters are drawn and costumed in such a manner to exploit natural feminine beauty, but distorted into pornographic proportions.[/li]
[li]There is no reason or cause for this except to titillate an immature and simple-minded male audience.[/li]
[li]I enjoy tits too, but not all the time. And anime artists have great difficulty resisting the urge to draw all the female cast members as the wet dreams of teenaged boys. This is gratuitous exploitation that demeans the validity of anime as legitimate content.[/li][/ul]

If the Japanese want to believe that Santa Claus lives on the Moon, go for it. If the Japanese want to believe that they're God's gift, fine. Those kinds of beliefs are harmless. But broadcasting the garbage that they do creates in the collective consciousness of Japanese society the idea that how anime treats women and children is the proper way for them to be treated.

You see enough examples of sexism without challenge often enough, then how can you be expected to know better? If your mainstream society is going to flat out broadcast the image of subservient Japanese women, then that's how their women are going to turn out, because that's how their culture will have molded them to be.

And that sort of sexism was fine 500 years ago. But it's the year 2011 and the West has gotten pretty far ahead in terms of tolerance and diversity. America elected a black man into the White House. When will the Japanese people elect a white man into their legislature? Just saying.

 

[sgt. soap mctavish]

good point.

 

[hedges1001]

@armstrong yeah the states have a black president. w00t england's had a woman prime minister and to be honest that sort of sexism was fine not 500 but try 40 years ago truth is you cant apply western progression to eastern values as much as you can apply a genius' intelligence to a brick. just super saiyan

 

[Kroden]

Thanks for the impute guys. I agree I could possibly do each of these main points on their own, or show examples of them throughout. I chose the points I did because there in lies much of the confusion with culture shock. It's different, and and these are some of the major areas that there people bring up (in no particular order, otherwise women and sexuality would be up top).

But you never even talked about your opinions on anime. you simply went off on a rant about Japanese history and good job you did your homework but you provided no information. your facts are fundamentally flawed. Western culture is not a Christian based culture. it was at one point but it now has evolved. To say that the woman's role in anime is to appeal to men and awe women is wrong as well. Having a strong woman role is not to appeal to men as sexy object. If anything it is to show the stereotype of the laws that western culture lays down upon women. For the damsel in distress women in anime the serve as a way to develop character later on or merely as comic relief. You also talk about how there aren't women superheroes in western culture but there are. you only stated 2 female heroes out of thousands. I can go on to your portrayal of Japanese culture but i think I'll wait for you to defend yourself.

 

[Etra488]

@armstrong yeah the states have a black president. w00t england's had a woman prime minister and to be honest that sort of sexism was fine not 500 but try 40 years ago truth is you cant apply western progression to eastern values as much as you can apply a genius' intelligence to a brick. just super saiyan

We can't apply Western values to imported Japanese products because it's an incompatible application or because it's embarrassing for the Japanese?

I don't accept the multiculturalism argument when it is clear that one of the cultures being compared is overtly more advanced than the other. and then saint of m attempts to make the case that in limited aspects, Japanese culture is actually superior...

 

[Saint of M]

Thanks for the impute guys. I agree I could possibly do each of these main points on their own, or show examples of them throughout. I chose the points I did because there in lies much of the confusion with culture shock. It's different, and and these are some of the major areas that there people bring up (in no particular order, otherwise women and sexuality would be up top).

But you never even talked about your opinions on anime. you simply went off on a rant about Japanese history and good job you did your homework but you provided no information. your facts are fundamentally flawed. Western culture is not a Christian based culture. it was at one point but it now has evolved. To say that the woman's role in anime is to appeal to men and awe women is wrong as well. Having a strong woman role is not to appeal to men as sexy object. If anything it is to show the stereotype of the laws that western culture lays down upon women. For the damsel in distress women in anime the serve as a way to develop character later on or merely as comic relief. You also talk about how there aren't women superheroes in western culture but there are. you only stated 2 female heroes out of thousands. I can go on to your portrayal of Japanese culture but i think I'll wait for you to defend yourself.

Its hard to not talk about western culture without mentioning Christianity as western culture as the religion has been as much a part of it as milk is a part of ice cream.

Yes we have thousands of super heroins, but tens of thousands of super heroes. I'm not saying we do not have them, I am saying it's a sausage fest comparably. Although that may still be a problem in Japan, considering half the stuff that gets shipped to the US.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Don't twist history to make the argument that animes are progressive towards women or that Japanese culture is somehow superior to American culture, as your undertones clearly express. Women are exploited hardcore for their bodies. Japan has perverts too. Just like in America!

Um, the OP never said that Japanese culture was superior to American culture - he said that Japanese media for children had more strong, positive female role models.

Which it does.

Your later point about strong American females are all adult media examples - the evening news kind of adult. Hillary Clinton isn't a cartoon character, and does not appear in any American cartoons. She is an excellent role model for older teens who are interested in national politics, but that is only a small number of young women.

The OP's point is that Japan's culture is very different - not better, not worse, and often confusing. It promotes strong women to young girls, then smacks that down when they get to be adults (whereas in American, young girls have very few role model, but adult women have many).

You seem to be over-reacting to an implied insult that does not exist.

 

[Dabs]

Hey OP, I skipped the rest of the thread and only registered on here to reply to your post. You've made pictures and tried to say something that's dear to you, there's just one thing where I say to you're wrong.

The whole warrior-women thing. I have looked for them being a real thing in history, somewhere, for a long time, they don't exist. At best they're a post-fact, modern romantization, and I am fairly certain a proper review of historic documents will show this to be a case in japan as well. Women have been diplomats, icons, and sometimes genuine leaders, but never warriors. Never. Sorry.

 

[Saint of M]

Hey OP, I skipped the rest of the thread and only registered on here to reply to your post. You've made pictures and tried to say something that's dear to you, there's just one thing where I say to you're wrong.

The whole warrior-women thing. I have looked for them being a real thing in history, somewhere, for a long time, they don't exist. At best they're a post-fact, modern romantization, and I am fairly certain a proper review of historic documents will show this to be a case in japan as well. Women have been diplomats, icons, and sometimes genuine leaders, but never warriors. Never. Sorry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onna_bugeisha

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakano_Takeko

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomoe_Gozen


They existed, but were rare on the battlefeild. Woemen had to defend the homes while their fathers, husbands, and sons went off to war, and if they did not receive any training in the martial arts, they would be easy pickings for rival warlords or bandits.


However a samurai woman's role as a worrier quickly diminished over a 200 year period before the samurai class was abolished during one final battle in the mid 1800's

 

[Rarhnor]

When women are depicted in anime, it is fulfilling one of three roles:
[ul][li]the fetishistic chick that men like to masturbate to[/li]
[li]the submissive victims that reinforce Patriarchy, that men need to own women for their own good[/li]
[li]no-character mary sues[/li][/ul]

The most generous I've ever seen an anime be to women was The Last Airbender, and that was an American anime. So does that show even qualify?

Don't twist history to make the argument that animes are progressive towards women or that Japanese culture is somehow superior to American culture, as your undertones clearly express. Women are exploited hardcore for their bodies. Japan has perverts too. Just like in America!

And that's the thing about cultural relativism; different is ok. But sexism is sexism. Every culture has it's highs and lows. And for me, having read about many a culture, god damnit it is a wallbanger to see again and again conversations begin with "don't judge, every culture is unique" and end with "but this culture is better."

Mostly this...

Continues OT: ...but I'd say that women are revered, because of the fact that they become a target to this "exploit" that davidarmstrong448 mentions. The whole idol culture is usually a positive response from a fanbase that is interested in women. Hell, the amount of attention female idols in general gets in Japan (if not Asia), are largely based on their own merit even. Sad though, that the non-idol women and girls get all consequences of this idol culture (perverts, unreasonable expectations and the like).
It's funny OP that you didn't touch the idol culture, as this has a lot bigger impact on todays japan (and Asia), than what you reference from history.

 

[Saint of M]

Point taken. I needed to mention that, and more details on the religions part of the culture. Maybe at a latter time.

 

[Chimichanga]

My gripe with anime is from an artistic PoV.

I dislike that almost all vital and important characters in anime are beautiful.

Part of it has to do that a lot of anime is made for the young Japanese male demographic, so the fact that almost all protagonists seem to be jaded and androgynous adolescents doesn't entirely surprise me. But I hate that none of the character designs seem to have any of the real defects or biological flaws that normal,every day people have. No one in anime has jowls, none of them have acne, none of them are freakishly tall or short, none of them are freakishly thin or fat, none of them have snaggle-tooth, none of them have lines in their faces, none of them have strange face proportions that make them unattractive. I'm not seriously expecting to see a change in which the characters are truly fugly, that would be really stupid; but I'm annoyed by the fact that all of them are picturesque and personify the ideal human form. It's like how all western comic book superheroes before the mid 1970s were all white and upper-middle class with mid-western conservative US values. It's not so much that they need to be ugly, I'm just put off by how they are all perfect and that the writers/producers/whoever seem to expect people to somehow identify with them when they start to wangst about minor childhood trauma and dad-issues that made the dark and jaded anti-hero protagonist so darn jaded.

It's a gross generalization, I know, but it occurs often enough that I can say it and I can reasonably assume that you all know what I'm talking about.

Also: the stupid fucking eyes. I'm aware that it's used as a form of wordless expression, but it annoys me and somewhat creeps me out when anime characters do that weird eye-thing they do when they're distressed, awed, or speechlessly-afraid; you know, where their entire eyes bulge and shake dramatically. Yeah - the human eye cannot do that, either they are mutants or they have intense periodic cataracts that plague them at specific plot-important intervals. It's not dramatic: just stupid.

Over-sized weapons: Yeah, it occurs in western stuff too and it still comes across as the said characters/writers/whoever overcompensating for erectile dysfunction and feelings of inadequacy over here too. The Japanese just seemed to make it popular; is that a cultural thing, or some kind of rite of initiation among the artists that has spiraled out of control over time?

I also have a beef with how all anime seems to be built around similar plot points, but I actually understand that and have no questions about it.