Anime Argument #173

[RJ 17]

The other day a friend of mine was telling me about how he's been embroiled in an argument on a forum he frequents for the last 3 days. He didn't say how it started, but the argument boils down to him making the assertion that Goku from DBZ could beat Naruto in a fight. Evidently that forum is also frequented by many a Naruto fan-boy as, by his description, he has stirred up a hornets' nest. Originally he was trolling, but none the less all the arguments he put forth were true. The only argument he told me the Naruto supporters were using regarded his giant demon fox form. But even so....Goku is frickin' Goku.

The "problem" with Goku is that he is a 100% picture-perfect representation of a deus ex machina character. Everything after the death of Raditz is Goku saving the day one way or another. Nappa and Vegeta arrive and kick every's ass...then Goku shows up. Ginyus show up and kick everyone's ass...then Goku shows up. Freiza arrives and kicks everyone's ass...then Goku shows up. Androids arrive and kick everyone's ass...then Goku shows up. He then has a heart attack, allowing the androids to kick everyone's ass some more, then Cell shows up P). Cell kicks everyone's ass, then Goku shows up...and pushes Gohan to SSJ 2. And while Gohan does technically kill Cell, it is quite clear that his father gave him the energy he needed and, in one interpritation, was actually there to make it a ghost-father and son double Kamehame blast. Anyways, Buu shows up, kicks everyone's ass, then Goku shows up.

Sorry if the above paragraph was rather repetative, but it proves a point: DBZ is nothing if it's not consistent with the whole "and then Goku shows up" to take care of all the bosses. Hell, the only reason the Buu saga gets out of hand is because Goku doesn't even want to be bothered with it. While fighting Kid Buu he curses at himself, saying "I could have defeated Fat Buu, but I wanted to let the kids have a try at saving the world." And we all know how that ended.

So yeah, DBZ lore demands that Goku be the anime equivalent of Superman in his "holy crap that's just not fair" overpoweredness. This is something that my friend and I concluded as we discussed the situation. Then he popped the question of who'd win in a fight: Superman or Goku. And I said "If there's kryptonite around: Goku. If there's not: it's a draw." The thing about Goku is that he has no Kryptonite weakness...he's just ridiculously overpowered in every possible way.

Then my friend suggested Batman vs Goku and, as badass as the Dark Knight is, Goku would beat his ass.

So after hearing about all the fun my friend was having with the Naruto fanboys and having an interesting conversation about crazily overpowered characters, I decided I wanted to see if I could have some of that same fun here. So this brings me to the point of my topic, the Anime Argument #173. As mentioned above, Goku post-Raditz is an undefeatable hand of god character, even if you factor out the ridiculous monkey SSJ 4 form from DBGT, and I say he's taking on all challengers! Can anyone think of a character capable of beating him? If so, please elaborate. Keep in mind that this assumes that both characters are at full power with all techniques available, which means that Goku is SSJ 3 (since I refuse to acknowledge the existence of GT...GOD that series sucked).

And for all the TL/DR whiners: Goku is the most overpowered character in anime. In the age old argument of "who would win in a fight", can you think of an anime character capable of beating SSJ 3 Goku?

P.S. Yes I know this topic will most likely be a flop...but there COULD be some fun conversations!

 

[Ordinaryundone]

The "problem" with Goku is that he is a 100% picture-perfect representation of a deus ex machina character. Everything after the death of Raditz is Goku saving the day one way or another. Nappa and Vegeta arrive and kick every's ass...then Goku shows up. Ginyus show up and kick everyone's ass...then Goku shows up. Freiza arrives and kicks everyone's ass...then Goku shows up. Androids arrive and kick everyone's ass...then Goku shows up. He then has a heart attack, allowing the androids to kick everyone's ass some more, then Cell shows up P). Cell kicks everyone's ass, then Goku shows up...and pushes Gohan to SSJ 2. And while Gohan does technically kill Cell, it is quite clear that his father gave him the energy he needed and, in one interpritation, was actually there to make it a ghost-father and son double Kamehame blast. Anyways, Buu shows up, kicks everyone's ass, then Goku shows up.

Goku isn't Deus Ex Machina, beyond his ability to train so damn effectively. Why does he win all the fights then? Because he's the main character. Every fight is Goku's fight, that's the price of being the hero of the story. Besides, like you said, Gohan beat Cell. Trunks beat Frieza (in a REAL WTF moment, btw). He's not the only person who wins fights, he just happens to be the only person who can FIGHT in most fights. The majority of his friends are just too weak to hang with the big boys.

This isn't bad storytelling, it's just simple storytelling. Dragon Ball is about Goku, first and foremost. His journeys, his fights, his victories. And he's not going to lose, because he's the good guy and the main character. If you think that is DxM, you need to redefine your definition.

As for people who can beat Goku, plenty of the stronger anime characters. Atomsk from FLCL can move entire galaxies using his N.O. powers. Simon with Gurren Lagaan is able to THROW galaxies with its hands. Light Yagami could write Goku's name in a Death Note and kill him.

As for other genres, Superman could grab Goku and fly him into space. Goku can't breathe up there, so he loses. If he somehow can, Superman flies him into the sun. Ditto any other cosmic-level hero (who isn't team based like Green Lantern or Nova).

 

[thespyisdead]

in response of who would beat Goku: Light Yagami or Leloush vi Britannia...

he's fucked in both cases

 

[Vigilante 989]

Light Yagami,

The Death Note,

The names wirtten of every character in DBZ,

And were done.

 

[him over there]

Naruto is better than Goku? what is the world coming to? Naruto can maybe be super powered for a little bit because of the fox form but goku can blow up planets because as a saiyan all he has to do is apply himself and he will surpass and achieve limitless physical prowess. On the subject of OMG power levelz! shonen characters I think only Simon from gurren lagann surpasses him.

 

[Something Amyss]

Come on, Batman would win. Batman ALWAYS wins.

Mostly because writers have given up on clever writing to move the character.

 

[Silk_Sk]

Whenever a who-would-win argument pops up, the answer is ALWAYS "Batman with prep-time."

 

[Blue Hero]

light yagami light yagami death note lalala

The death note only works on humans. Goku is an alien space monkey so it wouldn't work on him.

 

[GrandmaFunk]

comparing characters that exist in different realities is pointless as there is no baseline.

 

[itaywex]

You can't Compare characters of different universes because it depends on the auther.

For example I will now make a character: TwattyCake, if he thinks about any entity or object and wants to destroy them they will be immidiatly vanish from existence.

So TwattyCake can defeat Goku easly and every other character ever.

My point is that comparing characters from different universes is meanningless because their "power level" depends on the auther.

 

[Axolotl]

I can think of a ton of comics characters that could do it. From the top of my head:

Dr Manhattan can move atoms with his mind dissassmbling Goku easily, he's also virtually unkillable and can see the future.

Morpheus, lord of dreams, beyond a god, curbstomp victory. The rest of The Endless probably also count.

The Authority, post-revolution they have two characters who can do anything and pre-revolution they still have one. The rest of the team can also compete on Goku's level.

Malak, Krishna, Maitreya, Dajjal or Perun from Supergod could probably take him, or at least pose a serious challenge.

 

[DrOswald]

I think the Superman vs Goku thing is a strange argument. It depends on what point in DBZ you are talking about. End of series Goku could easily beat Superman with very little effort. Despite what most people seem to think, Superman has pretty well defined limits to his powers and he is not even close to the most powerful thing in his universe. He is certainly strong, but end of DBZ Goku is a planet killer. Actually, beginning of Freiza saga Goku is a planet killer. Superman just can't stand up to full on planet killers alone.

The best argument in my opinion is early DBZ Goku (lets say just before beating Vegita) vs Superman. Goku at that point is several times powerful enough to destroy metropolis in a single blast (as evidenced by the fact that Nappa was able to destroy a city of similar size so easily and Goku outclassed Nappa) But there is some question as to how effective a Kamehameha wave, for example, would be on Superman. But Superman has shown a weakness to energy based attacks. Darkside, for example, can defeat superman with relative ease simply by using his omega beam attack, so energy attacks may be very effective against Superman. On the other hand, Superman probably has Goku beat in terms of raw strength and speed, but has very little actual training and no energy manipulation abilities. He is more like a street brawler than anything, so Goku would easily outclass Superman in technique.

Alternate: What if Vegita and Nappa arrived a day earlier so the Justice League had to take over? Remember, Vegita was more powerful than Goku at the time, they had the Saibamen, and Nappa himself was no pushover.

 

[dogenzakaminion]

I think the real winner comes down to who has the yellowest hair. Naruto....or SSJ Goku. All I know is that the yellow really makes Goku's eyes pop.

There are quite a few "god characters" from western comics and cartoons. Dr. Manhattan for example would destroy either. As many people have mentioned, it comes down to which plot contrivance the author chooses, and someone wins.

 

[Surpheal]

Allow me to throw my hat into this ring, well okay someone else's hat into the ring. So to that point, I would have to say Doomsday. Kill him once, shame on him. Try it again, it won't work.

On an unrelated note my Captcha has the number 1,108,809 in it, strange.

 

[gigastar]

but the argument boils down to him making the assertion that Goku from DBZ could beat Naruto in a fight.

The best advice i could give there is that when ever someone brings that up you immeadiately stop caring and find something else to do urgently. Getting dragged into this kind of arguments is counter-productive in general.

 

[bruunwald]

I love being a nerd, precisely for the "versus" debates. I think if you go back to the days of the Greeks, you'll probably find unshaven dudes sitting around, arguing over who would win in a Hercules/Perseus match-up, citing any and all minutia from each demigod's barest related tales. (For the historically-challenged, it might also interest you to know that the Romans had twenty-sided dice - no, I'm not kidding.)

However, Goku is a fallback nerd argument to eclipse all of them; the sort of cliche that cannot be justified as quaint or clever in any regard, and any nerd still trying to force him into every "versus" battle has zero cred with me. Firstly, Goku's creator, and various writers associated with him, are simply going to come up with some stupid means for him to succeed, no matter how ridiculous. He is not a character who lives within his means, or his story arch, so he probably should be excluded from these sorts of debates. Most characters have defining borders. Spider-Man, for instance, clings to walls, is very smart, is fast, precognitive to danger, and is only so-so on the superhero strength scale. He can fail because is defined by those limitations, and when he succeeds, it's within those limitations. He finds some way to resourcefully get around them, or through them, reasonably. He turns weakness into strength.

Goku, on the other hand, simply grunts and groans, sometimes dies, and basically punches his way to success by sheer escalation of raw power. He gets stronger because the writer says so, afraid to permanently lose his cash cow. There's little to him, and nothing real in the way of resourcefulness. He doesn't have to grow as a character, because the next time he gets injured, the writer will simply have him come back with more muscles. By virtue of this meme, Goku will eventually pwn, but he should never be proud of it, and nobody ought to be praising him for it. It's a grunt-your-way-to-violent-success arc. It doesn't really mean anything.

Not to mention that, though they also talk a lot, the characters in Naruto at least try to get their jitsu off quickly. Goku usually stands around talking about fighting for about 17 episodes, before he then "powers up" for another 10, leaving himself totally exposed while doing so. His enemies just stand there watching and waiting. If Goku existed in Naruto's world, he would have the crap kicked out of him before his hair turned yellow. But being in his own world, he is immune to preemptive attacks, protected by the same piss-poor writing that gives him godlike strength each time he stubs his little toe.

 

[boag]

Light Yagami,

The Death Note,

The names wirtten of every character in DBZ,

And were done.

Wouldnt the Shinigami need permission from Kami to kill Goku?

 

[boag]

comparing characters that exist in different realities is pointless as there is no baseline.

I once saw, someone calculate All Start Supermans Baseline Power Level, by using mathematics, and extensive knowledge of Dragon ball.

All Star Superman after Being Super Irradiated by the yellow sun, had a power lvl of around 10^22.

Maybe this mathematical equation could be used to ponder Narutos power lvl, if you have enough time to waste on it.

 

[Sirron Kcuch]

Shinji Ikari would isolate the shit out of him
Beat that, Naruto