Anita Sarkeesian + Hitman Absolution = Epic Fail

Recommended Videos

IceForce

Is this memes?
Legacy
Dec 11, 2012
2,384
16
13
I quite like how many people in this thread have put a positive twist on that dead stripper you find in the derelict building. I hadn't thought of it that way, so thanks.
Matthew Jabour said:
Well, let's look a bit broader. Why don't we start with the fact that there IS a strip club level in the first place. The game does not need to have a strip club level for the plot to progress, and women are the only ones ever in such a situation.
It's a real-world portrayal.
Sure, you could argue that no video games, ever, should have brothels / strip clubs / strippers / prostitutes in them, but why impose such restrictions? If you want to frame a game around seedy city underbellies, it would be silly to NOT include the world's oldest profession.
Matthew Jabour said:
And yes, strip clubs do exist in reality. So does child pornography. Neither make a game more classy for their inclusion.
False equivalence, given that child porn is illegal, and strip clubs aren't.
 

IceForce

Is this memes?
Legacy
Dec 11, 2012
2,384
16
13
briankoontz said:
Anita is fundamentally correct. What's the range of possible interaction available in these types of games in general? Punch, shoot, drag around. To kill or not to kill, that is the question.

Obviously this is true with respect to both male and female victims, but that doesn't make it right that men are treated just as badly.
If you can perform the same actions to both male and female characters, with little or no difference between them, then that means that aspect of the game is not sexist.

Anita's whole point is to show examples of sexism and misogyny in video games. She has certainly produced a few good examples (Red Dead Redemption, for example), but where she shoots herself in the foot is when she starts showing footage of "terrible" acts performed on female NPCs, when you can perform exactly the same acts on male NPCs too.

If you can do the same to both, then it's not inherently sexist.

Yes, it may be gratuitously violent, but last I looked the name of Anita's series is "Tropes vs Women in Video Games", not "Tropes vs Violence in Video Games".
briankoontz said:
NPCs in games are usually victims, and the best they can hope for is that they get lucky and the player doesn't kill them. They're a lot like the people in Gaza right now, while the "heroic" IDF is saving the world (or at least Zionist Israel), one Palestinian corpse at a time.
I'm glad you brought up the example of Gaza, because that's not inherently sexist either.

Whether you be man or woman, if you're living in Gaza right now, you're just as much at risk as anyone else living there.

Just because something is bad, violent, or abhorrent, doesn't mean that it's automatically sexist.

Unfortunately, Anita has gone down the route of showing violent acts performed against female NPCs in video games, even though the violent acts are not even unique to female NPCs at all. And she's ended up discrediting herself in the process.

Could it be due to scope creep? Probably.
 

IceForce

Is this memes?
Legacy
Dec 11, 2012
2,384
16
13
SUPA FRANKY said:
I always never got that. Should the strippers be invincible or something? What sense would that make? You can kill men in the droves, as shown in the trailer, so why would women be any different.
I'm not particularly a fan of making strippers or female NPCs invincible, because children in video games are already like that, and it's silly.

Besides, making female NPCs invincible would essentially be giving them preferential treatment just because they're female, which is worst than the status quo, in my opinion.
 

IceForce

Is this memes?
Legacy
Dec 11, 2012
2,384
16
13
grimner said:
However, she is not wrong. The saints are a part of the finished product and are indeed highly sexualized (to the point of it being its unique character trait) antagonists, and her inclusion and design does indeed open the game up for misogynous implications: these stripper assassins are designed to be sexualized and objectified, and you are meant, as a player to derive enjoyment from their killings.
When she said she would be using footage from Hitman Absolution, I was sure it would be footage of the nun assassins. So I was quite surprised when I saw the footage was of another part of the game entirely.

Indeed, there is definitely a point to be made against those female nun antagonists. But for whatever reason, Anita decided to target a different point instead.
grimner said:
That she chose the wrong footage to ilustrate the point does not invalidate the existence of said issue.
I does invalidate it when the topic of her video is "Women as Background Decoration".
Obviously, the Saints are not "background decoration", so footage of them wouldn't fit in this video.
 

IceForce

Is this memes?
Legacy
Dec 11, 2012
2,384
16
13
BathorysGraveland2 said:
I guess in the age of Steam achievements though, people use controversy to get forum badges and shit? I don't know, it all just seems so pointless to me.
I can assure you, I didn't make this thread to get a badge.
If you look under my avatar, you'll see I already have the badge.

I don't doubt that the reason behind a number of these threads, might be to get a badge. But that's not the case here.
 

WindKnight

Quiet, Odd Sort.
Legacy
Jul 8, 2009
1,828
9
43
Cephiro
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
NuclearKangaroo said:
nomotog said:
ThingWhatSqueaks said:
nomotog said:
There is that spot in absolution where you have to use the body of a dead stripper to distract some guards. Well I guess you don't have to have to, but it is about the only way you can do that segment without getting shot at.
Really? I do not remember that. In all fairness that may have occurred after I stopped giving a fuck about being stealthy so there's that...
Did you beat the level after the strip club? That is where this segment is. I kind of think if you found the area you would know it. It's not the only place the game has sexualized violence on women. I mean it opens the game with you killing a woman in the shower. Heck that shower is the title screen.
what about the men you kill constantly, all the time, throughout the game?

plus doesnt it bother you in the slightest that she fabricated proof?

if what you are saying its true and hitman is a women beating simulator, why show false proof?
How many of those men are sexualised?

How many of those men are presented as sex objects?

How many of those men do you kill naked in the shower?
 

Batou667

New member
Oct 5, 2011
2,238
0
0
I agree, and I wrote a long post in another thread about how Anita completely misrepresented the tone and game mechanics of that Strip Club section - which I now can't find, because the Sarkeesian threads tend to get locked and deleted with quite some regularity. Anyway, suffice it to say that the strip club section of the game is designed to build antipathy towards, and justification for killing, the corrupt club owner, there's no reason or motivation whatsoever to harm any of the girls, and if you do find yourself dragging the strippers around in circles you're flat out playing the game wrong and must be either very bored or have worrying sexual kinks that could be better catered for elsewhere.

The same can be said for that one section later on where you discover dead stripper and use her corpse as a distraction. Yes, in very literal terms the stripper has become objectified and is "used" as a game mechanic - but I'd say it's justified in the context of further underlining what a bastard the club owner was. It's not included for laughs, the dead girl isn't sexualised (again, if this part of the game turns you on, that's between you and your psychiatrist), and I don't think it can be said to support any kind of trend of misogyny in the game. Heck, if the players principles prevent him/her from interacting briefly with the dead female body to accomplish a clean getaway, the alternative is to simply walk downstairs and kill the group of male police officers - and if that's considered the lesser of two evils, I might argue that suggests misandry, not misogyny.

What's a bit more interesting about the latest FemFreq video is this idea of "can implies should" - the idea that in a game that provides any kind of sandbox, any choice the player is given is implicitly condoned, even if it's self-destructive or triggers a lose-condition. The developers of Absolution wouldn't have gone to the effort of coding death animations for civilians if they weren't reasonably confident that some players would kill civilians, for example. But does this mean the developers want players to kill civilians? I'm not so sure.

I'm sure plenty of people remember the similar discussion around Skyrim when it first came out, and people discovered that you could potentially kill any man, woman or animal in the game - but not children. Kids were invincible. And some people set about creating mods to let you kill children, too. Hold up, let's read that last bit again - people went out of their way to make it so that you could kill children?! Why on earth would people want to do that? In isolation and out of context it sounds horrible. But I think that's oversimplifying things. We could make an argument about consistency and creating a less restricted experience where you can roleplay a truly evil character, or run the risk of a stray arrow hitting a kid in a battle, or have heightened stakes when a dragon attacks a village. None of this stems from an actual, real-life desire to kill kids. Yahtzee uncharacteristically waded into the argument, and, also uncharacteristically, I found myself disagreeing with him: his counterargument was that in a game where you could have sex with adults, would we insist on making kids fuckable too? Aside from this being a silly slippery-slope argument (killing is often justified in games, sex less often), I'd say the same consistency argument could be applied. In a hypothetical game where you could have sex with any man, woman and animal - consensual or not - then yeah, it'd be a weird omission to have kids in the setting that you couldn't do the same to. I'm not saying for a minute that this would be a moral or enjoyable game, but hey, once you set a precedent...

I dunno. Does "can" imply "should"? If a button is there for pressing, can all possible in-game interactions be seen as just variations on a button-press, or has it become more complicated than that?
 

Adam Jensen_v1legacy

I never asked for this
Sep 8, 2011
6,651
0
0
Anita is, and always has been, a clueless fuckin dimwit. Don't people know this by now?

She doesn't care about being objective at all. She has a goal. And that is to find stuff that she, as some kind of feminazi, can complain about. And she will find it everywhere she looks, because she wants to see it. She doesn't even make an effort to think about things objectively. She will make shit up, misinterpret on purpose or because she's an idiot and she will jump to conclusions in order to make her point. Why do so many people still pay attention to this fuckin' moron is beyond me.
 

IceForce

Is this memes?
Legacy
Dec 11, 2012
2,384
16
13
Windknight said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
what about the men you kill constantly, all the time, throughout the game?

plus doesnt it bother you in the slightest that she fabricated proof?

if what you are saying its true and hitman is a women beating simulator, why show false proof?
How many of those men are sexualised?

How many of those men are presented as sex objects?
How many strip clubs are full of only male strippers?

You see, if you're going to make an attempt at even a semi-realistic portrayal of something seedy like a strip club, in a video game, it's going to have the same 'gender bias' as the real thing does. Does that make the video game sexist?
Windknight said:
How many of those men do you kill naked in the shower?
People take showers, it's what they do. People take showers naked, it's what they do.
This is not unique to males or females.

Sorry, but I don't see any sexism present in this scene.

In my opinion, it's presented relatively tastefully, and not sexualized at all.




Though it's interesting how a shower curtain magically appears out of nowhere.
 

NuclearKangaroo

New member
Feb 7, 2014
1,919
0
0
Windknight said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
nomotog said:
ThingWhatSqueaks said:
nomotog said:
There is that spot in absolution where you have to use the body of a dead stripper to distract some guards. Well I guess you don't have to have to, but it is about the only way you can do that segment without getting shot at.
Really? I do not remember that. In all fairness that may have occurred after I stopped giving a fuck about being stealthy so there's that...
Did you beat the level after the strip club? That is where this segment is. I kind of think if you found the area you would know it. It's not the only place the game has sexualized violence on women. I mean it opens the game with you killing a woman in the shower. Heck that shower is the title screen.
what about the men you kill constantly, all the time, throughout the game?

plus doesnt it bother you in the slightest that she fabricated proof?

if what you are saying its true and hitman is a women beating simulator, why show false proof?
How many of those men are sexualised?

How many of those men are presented as sex objects?

How many of those men do you kill naked in the shower?
you can undress men in this game, no woman can be undressed

these women are sex workers, why in the hell should they not be sexualized?

is like asking for a scientist character to be spectacuraly dumb, is out of character

men dont go to stripper clubs to see reasonably dressed women i can tell you that
 

NuclearKangaroo

New member
Feb 7, 2014
1,919
0
0
Matthew Jabour said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
Matthew Jabour said:
Well, let's look a bit broader. Why don't we start with the fact that there IS a strip club level in the first place. The game does not need to have a strip club level for the plot to progress, and women are the only ones ever in such a situation. The intent to willingly code in a level based around a sexy club which features sexy women dressed - or undressed - sexually, almost certainly to appeal to the male player, is not exactly benign. And need I remind us all the other sexism charges this game faced? *coughkungfulatexnunscough*

Obviously, Sarkeesian is taking things too far. But any game where you would not have to go out of your way to beat up female strippers is asking to be called out.

P.S.: To prove I'm trying to take the middle ground here, I leave you with a Bro Team quote:

(shoots stripper) THIS IS SEXIST.
(shoots guy) THIS IS ACCEPTABLE.
the real world also has strip clubs, where, mostly women work

is reality sexist?
The real world also has S&M clubs. Put one of those in your game, and people would be a little disturbed.
well if you are disturbed thats fine but you must recognize thats your fault, it doesnt mean the game is sexist

as for S&M, sure why not
 

IceForce

Is this memes?
Legacy
Dec 11, 2012
2,384
16
13
NuclearKangaroo said:
you can undress men in this game, no woman can be undressed
This right here is the main point I was making with this thread.

In fact, not even Thunderfoot included this point in his video.

Anita goes to great lengths to show all the terrible things one can do to the female background characters in Hitman Absolution, but she completely neglects to mention that it's possible to treat men in this game WORSE than women.

Can you imagine the outcry there would be, if it was possible to undress women in this game and wear their clothes?
 

NuclearKangaroo

New member
Feb 7, 2014
1,919
0
0
IceForce said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
you can undress men in this game, no woman can be undressed
This right here is the main point I was making with this thread.

In fact, not even Thunderfoot included this point in his video.

Anita goes to great lengths to show all the terrible things one can do to the female background characters in Hitman Absolution, but she completely neglects to mention that it's possible to treat men in this game WORSE than women.

Can you imagine the outcry there would be, if it was possible to undress women in this game and wear their clothes?
thatd be hilarious

that being said you can undress women in bethesda games so i assume the outcry wouldnt be big, that is, unless anita made a mountain out of a grain of sand yet again
 

WindKnight

Quiet, Odd Sort.
Legacy
Jul 8, 2009
1,828
9
43
Cephiro
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
NuclearKangaroo said:
these women are sex workers, why in the hell should they not be sexualized?

is like asking for a scientist character to be spectacuraly dumb, is out of character

men dont go to stripper clubs to see reasonably dressed women i can tell you that
IceForce said:
Windknight said:
How many strip clubs are full of only male strippers?

You see, if you're going to make an attempt at even a semi-realistic portrayal of something seedy like a strip club, in a video game, it's going to have the same 'gender bias' as the real thing does. Does that make the video game sexist?
nonetheless combing sex with violence - sexualised violence - goes into an uncomfortable and unpleasant place, with general implications that need to be carefully though out, which in this case are simply not being thought out. Thats before we get into the way sex worked face actual violence and degrading treatment for being sex workers, are treated as disposable or may have actively been trapped into their line of work.

None of these aspects come into play when killing other npc's whether their male or female (and she only specifically calls out violence towards and treatment of sex workers in this video).
Windknight said:
How many of those men do you kill naked in the shower?
People take showers, it's what they do. People take showers naked, it's what they do.
This is not unique to males or females.

Sorry, but I don't see any sexism present in this scene.
Wow... everybody showers naked... such a compelling and insightful argument, next your going to tell me the sky is blue, and the pope is catholic, and other wonderful factoids that have no bearing on the point I was making.
 

NuclearKangaroo

New member
Feb 7, 2014
1,919
0
0
Windknight said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
these women are sex workers, why in the hell should they not be sexualized?

is like asking for a scientist character to be spectacuraly dumb, is out of character

men dont go to stripper clubs to see reasonably dressed women i can tell you that
IceForce said:
Windknight said:
How many strip clubs are full of only male strippers?

You see, if you're going to make an attempt at even a semi-realistic portrayal of something seedy like a strip club, in a video game, it's going to have the same 'gender bias' as the real thing does. Does that make the video game sexist?
nonetheless combing sex with violence - sexualised violence - goes into an uncomfortable and unpleasant place, with general implications that need to be carefully though out, which in this case are simply not being thought out. Thats before we get into the way sex worked face actual violence and degrading treatment for being sex workers, are treated as disposable or may have actively been trapped into their line of work.

None of these aspects come into play when killing other npc's whether their male or female (and she only specifically calls out violence towards and treatment of sex workers in this video).
why?

why cant we treat sex workers in a game in the same way we treat every other npc? why must we discriminate them for their gender and condition?

devs dont make special rules for police NPCs, ambulance drivers, firefighters or random pedestrians, why is the discrimination on sex workers nessesary?
 

WindKnight

Quiet, Odd Sort.
Legacy
Jul 8, 2009
1,828
9
43
Cephiro
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
NuclearKangaroo said:
nonetheless combing sex with violence - sexualised violence - goes into an uncomfortable and unpleasant place, with general implications that need to be carefully though out, which in this case are simply not being thought out. Thats before we get into the way sex worked face actual violence and degrading treatment for being sex workers, are treated as disposable or may have actively been trapped into their line of work.

None of these aspects come into play when killing other npc's whether their male or female (and she only specifically calls out violence towards and treatment of sex workers in this video).
why?

why cant we treat sex workers in a game in the same way we treat every other npc? why must we discriminate them for their gender and condition?

devs dont make special rules for police NPCs, ambulance drivers, firefighters or random pedestrians, why is the discrimination on sex workers nessesary?
Because sex workers are the epitome of dis-empowered. Many are slaves, many are the victims of sex trafficking, many have been forcibly hooked on drugs, and many have literally no other way to make money.

And society likes to treat them as scum and disposable for all that.

And lets make this poin t again, as you skipped over it - these characters are presented as sexualised and sex objects... Violence towards them brings in and uncomfortable element of sexualised violence, something which can bring in unfortunate and unpleasant undertones that really should not be there.
 

briankoontz

New member
May 17, 2010
656
0
0
IceForce said:
Just because something is bad, violent, or abhorrent, doesn't mean that it's automatically sexist.

Unfortunately, Anita has gone down the route of showing violent acts performed against female NPCs in video games, even though the violent acts are not even unique to female NPCs at all. And she's ended up discrediting herself in the process.

Could it be due to scope creep? Probably.
Anita isn't a serious intellectual, and her narrow focus on women and only women shapes her entire understanding of seemingly everything around women. There's always going to be problems with everything Anita does unless she addresses these issues, but there's no reason to expect she will. And there's benefits to having such a narrow focus - sometimes she sees things others don't whose vision is wide enough to encompass more reality.

Just because Anita's not an ideal intellectual or ideal representative of feminism doesn't mean she doesn't have good points. When you're looking for diamonds in the rough, you can complain about the rough or be happy when you find diamonds.

The stripper as sexist is complicated, since it's true that women in games are often depicted in sexual ways that men are not, but it's also true that NPCs regardless of gender are overwhelmingly victimized in games.

So we could look at it this way - would a female NPC rather be an engineer blown away by the "hero" or a stripper blown away by the "hero"? It seems like the NPC regardless of how they are depicted would rather have their life respected, and once they are not just a violated and exterminated object they can determine what profession they prefer.

Your point is completely valid - Anita's narrow scope, her desire to be a feminist hero instead of a serious intellectual, caused her to overconsider sexism as a factor in this case. But it's also true that because there's so much Sarkeesian hate among gamers, they'll jump on every flaw or problem she has, pointing out and laughing at every "rough" and doing their best to ignore the good points she makes. How is this any better?

Sarkeesian is not an enemy to gamers. She's a flawed intellectual who makes some good points about women in games. Every good point she makes benefits gamers and game developers. It's fine to point out her flaws in the hope that she can improve upon them but it's really silly to demonize her out of a mistaken thought that she's an enemy.

I'm going to look for more serious feminist gamer intellectuals on the internet, and if I find any who produce better work than Sarkeesian I'll talk about them in this forum. But maybe Sarkeesian, for all her flaws, is the best out there.