Mortai Gravesend said:
Then I'm not particularly sure why your post seemed like it was sarcastically suggesting that I have double standards...
My post was originally just "I'm sure you have none of those," but I realized by saying that alone, I was being a passive-aggressive prick.
Well great, but the only reference to liars was me sarcastically proposing that the vast majority of men are pathological liars.
I was talking about my statement about the vast majority of people lying to suit themselves. It was you who then decided it had to be somebody who lies at every turn. I'm not saying most people are pathological liars, but most people will lie very often to make circumstances easier.
Thanks. That's quite a relief.
Except the thing is if you come to me and say it's cheese, I'd very well expect you to be providing the evidence of it instead of me having to disprove it. After all, if you say it's true you should have evidence you based the assertion on.
I know that, that's not what I meant. I'm well aware that you don't have to prove the negative of any assertion I make at all, even if I said "gravity exists." It'd be easy enough for me to demonstrate gravity myself.
Barring the troubles of getting to the moon itself, what I meant was that there is a moon orbiting earth that is accessible by humans, and there is empirical evidence looming above our heads that the moon is, in fact, not cheese.
I have no idea how accurate this is, but assuming it's not just outright lying people do make studies on masturbation according to the first two paragraphs: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-about-sex/200903/how-common-is-masturbation-really
That's what I meant, I'm skeptical about public surveys, especially things that ask the person to reveal something that would make them nervous if it wasn't completely held anonymously. The same applies to a survey about the social cycle I'm talking about.
And you're operating on more than just the assumption we live in the same society. You're operating on the assumption that what you personally see is representative and that you are a good collector of information, that the section of the populace you meet and interact with is one that's random enough your view of it isn't skewed. Plus of course there's the issue of your interpretation of events. It's not like people have a label saying 'uses sex to manipulate' on them, you have to make that judgement and your judgement is hardly beyond question.
Fair enough. But I suppose you could say that about anybody, really. I'm just making observations based on what I see.
If you can't know then how can you make such a sweeping claim as to include the 'vast majority of women'?
I meant the vast majority that I've encountered, and then assumed a societal pattern. Sure in a perfect world I would give everyone I don't know the benefit of the doubt, but I find people far too predictable for that.
Look... Does it make sense to say "Yes, I said X, but I said the reason it happens is..." and defend your statement like that, when my issue is with you claiming X in the first place? No, it really doesn't. You're trying to explain a phenomena as a defense to me asking you to prove the phenomena is as you say it is.
I see what you're saying. But clearly we're working with separate pools of people where I see it as extremely prominent, rampant almost, and you don't see it at all. Like I said, I find that interesting and, frankly, it gives me a bit of hope that the entire world isn't a big ball of trash.
And I don't get why you'd think that make a sweeping generalization about males would make me any happier. In fact I dislike that generalization as well. It's not like making such generalizations balances out or anything =/
I only did that because, in light of the recent topics at the escapist, I assumed the hot word going around was "misogynist" and I expected you to sling the same thing at me.
Except I'm saying I'm doubtful of your idea that all these cliches are coming to life as you say they are. Not only that but for the vast majority of people, an even larger claim than simply saying they might occur, which I'd be more inclined to think could be the case.
As for it seeming prevalent to you... there's a lot of biases that make your information rather unreliable when you try and extrapolate it for the vast majority of people. It's not like you go through life as an impartial observer meeting people of all sections of society without any kind of agenda of your own.
This is basically the same thing you said before, and I said 'fair enough,' so fair enough. Although I'd say that's true of almost anybody who's not, say, a diplomat. But you're certainly right about that. Though, I have been around the United States and Germany and I get the same sexual vibe from each place, that that's the way it is in a lot of modern, secular (which the United States really isn't, but still) societies.
Intending doesn't really matter all that much, it's whether the statement is or is not sexist. People can say things without realizing they're sexist and merely believing them to be truth whether they are or not.
I agree.
I'm saying I really doubt people all fall into this mindset you think they do.
And even if they did I'm doubtful about your idea that there is a "self-sustained female superiority" perpetuated through manipulation. That really sounds like the words of someone who would only be looking at it from one side. 'Superiority' that restricts you in exchange for... some kind of nebulous ability to manipulate people doesn't sound very much like superiority.
I meant sexual superiority, where men are encouraged to accept any advance and women are encouraged to deny any advance. It's really counter-intuitive to everyone if you ask me, but I said the only reason people would want to uphold it is that people on both sides get a rush from it. Men like the thrill of the chase, and they enjoy bragging (something I absolutely never understood.. bragging about sex. It makes you look like a filthy, sad human being) and the women enjoy being manipulative.
I'm doubtful about the degree of this however. Sure I can see it that some people try to enforce the social norm that men are supposed to want sex, but I'm doubtful about this upper hand and all that you suggest. Even if there is some kind of marginal advantage due to that, I don't see much of an issue with that. If people feel more free to reject, that's fine. It's only an issue if people feel they should or should not have to have sex instead of being able to freely make up their own minds. And I don't see how women are manipulating anyone here, I mostly see that idiotic notion that men should just want lots of sex pushed by other men.
I think more of it comes from sex being held as this 'holy grail' of social status. That if you're a guy and you have lots of sex you must have the blood of a Norse god. That translates to people being able to nullify other social statuses and instead feel superior to somebody else due to how much sex they have (or how little, for females). It assumes that everyone's on an equal playing field in the sexual realm, which they're not. It's really a matter of circumstance.
Many physically attractive people find their life devoid of sexual advances, it's called involuntary celibacy. And many physically unattractive people have sex on a regular basis. It could be anywhere from prostitution, to simply that there are people out there who don't find that person to be unattractive. There certainly is no one standard for attractiveness.
But it all boils down to the idea that your sex life makes you socially superior to others. When, in fact, I believe it's something you should keep a secret. You'd never hear me saying "I totally did XYZ with my girlfriend last night," because I find that ridiculously derogatory. But that's not what other people think-- or at least are led to think. That's why it seems like it's a forced social standard to me, because the idea of objectifying another person that heavily seems borderline sociopathic to me.
The issue I take with your apparent complaint that it's hard to be a guy is that I don't see the issue with people not getting as much sex as they want. The only valid complaint I saw was that society pushes that men should want sex.
I'm not complaining that men aren't getting sex. In fact it's in my best interest that nobody reproduce, because I think the world is absolutely rotten thanks to human beings.
But there also is the issue of psychological damage from sexual frustration (and this could apply to either side). There could be men and women who have equal libido, but the man becomes sexually frustrated because he can't have sex due to the woman's withdrawal of it, and the woman becomes sexually frustrated because she feels the need to withdraw sex as long as possible in order to maintain her Puritan status of "virgin" or even just "not a slut."
And when it becomes a constant thing, sexual frustration is not just an "Aww, man. I didn't have sex," kind of thing, it can literally drive people to the brink of insanity.