Any hope for RPG's ?

[Chibz]

Because a DM have about 5 people he has to satisfy, a corporation can have millions. That makes it way harder to make sure that everyone is happy.

It doesn't really matter the scale of people you need to satisfy. There are many, MANY tricks to give the illusion of freedom/choice, while really offering none.

 

[linwolf]

Never listen to the roaring minority. Seriously, for every person posting his or her disapproval of upcoming titles, there are bound many others who don't post, let alone go on forums to post about games.

Took the words right out of my mouth. There is an extremely noisy minority at work here.

For example, take a moment to observe all those people claiming that Bioware ruined Mass Effect forever with the changes in the sequel.

Now compare the sales figures and reviews of ME1 and ME2.

Yeah.

If a game is made so it suit a niche of the market and then the sequel removes what made that niche like it. It really doesn't matter that it sold better the game has still made a change that ruin it for people that loved the first. You can't just say that if a game sells better then it must be better. Not all people what the same from a game and it would be a shame if all game should be made to make it decent for big group instead of really good for a subgroup. And I find it a twice as sad when a sequel decide to take this road.

 

[Continuity]

Or, it's actually really, REALLY similar and people like you just can't admit combat in a game doesn't need to glacial to be tactical. Better is subjective, making combat fancier and faster doesn't make it less pure.

Whatever you want to call it buddy, some of us just plain out and out prefer it turn based. I guess the years of table top D&D followed by years of great CRPGs have shaped our taste.

Each to their own.

Its not even just down to being turn based, baldur's gate wasn't turnbased as such anyway, its the detail of the mechanic and depth of the IP thats really important, not to mention the implementation of choice, dialogue, narrative etc.

Do I want a choice of 10 spells for my mage? No, I want a choice of this many spells:

Fair warning before you click, its a long list.

Spoiler

Arcane Spells

Arcane Spells Level 1
Armor
Blindness
Burning Hands
Charm Person
Chill Touch
Chromatic Orb
Color Spray
Find Familiar
Friends
Grease
Identify
Infravision
Larloch's Minor Drain
Magic Missile
Nahal's Reckless Dweomer
Protection from Evil
Protection from Petrification
Reflected Image
Shield
Shocking Grasp
Sleep
Spook
Arcane Spells Level 2
Agannazar's Scorcher
Blur
Chaos Shield
Deafness
Detect Invisibility
Ghoul Touch
Glitterdust
Horror
Invisibility
Knock
Know Alignment
Luck
Melf's Acid Arrow
Mirror Image
Power Word, Sleep
Ray of Enfeeblement
Resist Fear
Stinking Cloud
Strength
Vocalize
Web
Arcane Spells Level 3
Clairvoyance
Detect Illusion
Dire Charm
Dispel Magic
Fireball
Flame Arrow
Ghost Armor
Haste
Hold Person
Hold Undead
Invisibility 10' Radius
Lightning Bolt
Melf's Minute Meteors
Minor Spell Deflection
Monster Summoning I
Non-Detection
Protection from Cold
Protection from Fire
Protection from Normal Missiles
Remove Magic
Skull Trap
Slow
Spell Thrust
Vampiric Touch
Arcane Spells Level 4
Confusion
Contagion
Emotion: Hopelessness
Enchanted Weapon
Farsight
Fireshield (Blue)
Fireshield (Red)
Greater Malison
Ice Storm
Improved Invisibility
Minor Globe of Invulnerability
Minor Sequencer
Monster Summoning II
Otiluke's Resillient Sphere
Polymorph Other
Polymorph Self
Remove Curse
Secret Word
Spider Spawn
Spirit Armor
Stoneskin
Teleport Field
Wizard Eye
Arcane Spells Level 5
Animate Dead
Breach
Chaos
Cloudkill
Cone of Cold
Conjure Lesser Air Elemental
Conjure Lesser Earth Elemental
Conjure Lesser Fire Elemental
Domination
Feeblemind
Hold Monster
Lower Resistance
Minor Spell Turning
Monster Summoning III
Oracle
Phantom Blade
Protection from Acid
Protection from Electricity
Protection from Normal Weapons
Shadow Door
Spell Immunity
Spell Shield
Sunfire
Arcane Spells Level 6
Carrion Summons
Chain Lightning
Conjure Air Elemental
Conjure Earth Elemental
Conjure Fire Elemental
Contingency
Death Fog
Death Spell
Disintegrate
Flesh to Stone
Globe of Invulnerability
Improved Haste
Invisible Stalker
Mislead
Pierce Magic
Power Word, Silence
Protection from Magic Energy
Protection from Magical Weapons
Spell Deflection
Stone to Flesh
Summon Nishruu
Tenser's Transformation
True Sight
Wyvern Call
Arcane Spells Level 7
Cacofiend
Control Undead
Delayed Blast Fireball
Finger of Death
Improved Chaos Shield
Limited Wish
Mantle
Mass Invisibility
Mordenkainen's Sword
Power Word, Stun
Prismatic Spray
Project Image
Protection from Elements
Ruby Ray of Reversal
Spell Sequencer
Spell Turning
Sphere of Chaos
Summon Djinni
Summon Efreeti
Summon Hakeashar
Khelben's Warding Whip
Arcane Spells Level 8
Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting
Bigby's Clenched Fist
Improved Mantle
Incendiary Cloud
Maze
Pierce Shield
Power Word, Blind
Protection from Energy
Simulacrum
Spell Trigger
Summon Fiend
Symbol, Death
Symbol, Fear
Symbol, Stun
Arcane Spells Level 9
Absolute Immunity
Bigby's Crushing Hand
Black Blade of Disaster
Chain Contingency
Energy Drain
Freedom
Gate
Imprisonment
Meteor Swarm
Power Word, Kill
Shapechange
Spellstrike
Spell Trap
Time Stop
Wail of the Banshee
Wish
Arcane Spells Level 10
Comet
Dragon's Breath
Energy Blades
Improved Alacrity
Summon Dark Planetar
Summon Planetar
Divine Spells

Divine Spells Level 1
Armor of Faith
Bless
Command
Cure Light Wounds
Detect Evil
Doom
Entangle
Magical Stone
Protection from Evil
Remove Fear
Sanctuary
Shillelagh
Divine Spells Level 2
Aid
Barkskin
Chant
Charm Person or Mammal
Draw Upon Holy Might
Find Traps
Flame Blade
Goodberry
Hold Person
Know Alignment
Resist Fire and Cold
Silence 15' Radius
Slow Poison
Spiritual Hammer
Divine Spells Level 3
Animate Dead
Call Lightning
Cure Disease
Cure Medium Wounds
Dispel Magic
Glyph of Warding
Hold Animal
Holy Smite
Invisibility Purge
Miscast Magic
Protection from Fire
Remove Curse
Remove Paralysis
Rigid Thinking
Strength of One
Summon Insects
Unholy Blight
Zone of Sweet Air
Divine Spells Level 4
Animal Summoning I
Call Woodland Being
Cause Serious Wounds
Cloak of Fear
Cure Serious Wounds
Death Ward
Defensive Harmony
Farsight
Free Action
Holy Power
Lesser Restoration
Mental Domination
Negative Plane Protection
Neutralize Poison
Poison
Protection from Evil 10' Radius
Protection from Lightning
Divine Spells Level 5
Animal Summoning II
Cause Critical Wounds
Chaotic Commands
Cure Critical Wounds
Champion's Strength
Flame Strike
Greater Command
Insect Plague
Iron Skins
Magic Resistance
Mass Cure
Pixie Dust
Raise Dead
Repulse Undead
Righteous Magic
Slay Living
True Seeing
Divine Spells Level 6
Aerial Servant
Animal Summoning III
Blade Barrier
Bolt of Glory
Conjure Animals
Conjure Fire Elemental
Dolorous Decay
False Dawn
Fire Seeds
Harm
Heal
Physical Mirror
Sol's Searing Orb
Wondrous Recall
Divine Spells Level 7
Confusion
Conjure Earth Elemental
Creeping Doom
Earthquake
Finger of Death
Firestorm
Gate
Holy Word
Nature's Beauty
Greater Restoration
Resurrection
Shield of the Archons
Sunray
Symbol, Death
Symbol, Fear
Symbol, Stun
Unholy Word
Quest Spells
Aura of Flaming Death
Elemental Summoning
Elemental transformation
Globe of Blades
Greater Elemental Summoning
Implosion
Mass Raise Dead
Storm of Vengeance
Summon Deva
Summon Fallen Deva

Whats that you say? unrealistic expectations? they cant possibly implement and balance all of that?
They don't have to, its already been done in the AD&D IP. In fact that is the actual spell list from baldurs gate II.

and besides DAO with is classic RPG approach blew ME2 out of the water

Please, DAO is about as much a "classic RPG" as as it is a flaming ostrich. If you ask me its got far more in common with ME than it does any CRPG other than superficial looks.

 

[Kortney]

Never listen to the roaring minority. Seriously, for every person posting his or her disapproval of upcoming titles, there are bound many others who don't post, let alone go on forums to post about games.

Took the words right out of my mouth. There is an extremely noisy minority at work here.

For example, take a moment to observe all those people claiming that Bioware ruined Mass Effect forever with the changes in the sequel.

Now compare the sales figures and reviews of ME1 and ME2.

Yeah.

Yep. That's it. Same will happen with Dragon Age 2.

Same happened with Fallout 1 and 2 compared to 3 and New Vegas.

There is always a huge minority of whiners.

 

[Bobbity]

Never listen to the roaring minority. Seriously, for every person posting his or her disapproval of upcoming titles, there are bound many others who don't post, let alone go on forums to post about games.

Took the words right out of my mouth. There is an extremely noisy minority at work here.

For example, take a moment to observe all those people claiming that Bioware ruined Mass Effect forever with the changes in the sequel.

Now compare the sales figures and reviews of ME1 and ME2.

Yeah.

This^
The number of people who ***** that RPGs aren't nearly as good as they used to be is totally disproportionate to the number of people who actually enjoy the game. It's only a vocal few who know that the world eagerly awaits their verdict that make it seem as if RPGs are failing.

 

[BreakfastMan]

I never did understand the raging RPG fanatic mindset. I really like RPGs too (the genre is my favorite), but my tastes are much different than theirs, apparently. For example, I did not scream to the heavens "WHY IS THIS HAPPENING TO ME!!!" when they announced that DA2 would have more action-oriented combat. I also did not complain that ME2 was a worse game than ME1 due to stream-lining either (in fact, I like the second one much, much more than the first). As long as it has a decent, well-told story and does not make we want to through my controller/keyboard against a wall, I am good.

 

[Giuglea]

although i love MassEffect and DragonAge or Fallout3 , i miss Neverwinter Nights...i loved that game more than my first girlfriend..i`m keeping my hopes up for a NWN3..but now i think DA is too big to tackle...maybe in the future there will be room for another NWN..

 

[Zhukov]

For example, take a moment to observe all those people claiming that Bioware ruined Mass Effect forever with the changes in the sequel.

Now compare the sales figures and reviews of ME1 and ME2.

Yeah.

If a game is made so it suit a niche of the market and then the sequel removes what made that niche like it. It really doesn't matter that it sold better the game has still made a change that ruin it for people that loved the first. You can't just say that if a game sells better then it must be better. Not all people what the same from a game and it would be a shame if all game should be made to make it decent for big group instead of really good for a subgroup. And I find it a twice as sad when a sequel decide to take this road.

You are missing my point. I am not saying that ME1 is better then ME2 based on reviews and sales. That would be like saying the Twilight movies are better then Black Swan because they sold more tickets.

The OP was complaining about all the people complaing (ohh irony) about the new RPG releases.
I was pointing out that for every person whining on an internet forum, there are ten people having a good time playing the game.

That is all.

 

[manythings]

Or, it's actually really, REALLY similar and people like you just can't admit combat in a game doesn't need to glacial to be tactical. Better is subjective, making combat fancier and faster doesn't make it less pure.

Whatever you want to call it buddy, some of us just plain out and out prefer it turn based. I guess the years of table top D&D followed by years of great CRPGs have shaped our taste.

Each to their own.

Its not even just down to being turn based, baldur's gate wasn't turnbased as such anyway, its the detail of the mechanic and depth of the IP thats really important, not to mention the implementation of choice, dialogue, narrative etc.

Do I want a choice of 10 spells for my mage? No, I want a choice of this many spells:

Spoiler

Arcane Spells

Arcane Spells Level 1
Armor
Blindness
Burning Hands
Charm Person
Chill Touch
Chromatic Orb
Color Spray
Find Familiar
Friends
Grease
Identify
Infravision
Larloch's Minor Drain
Magic Missile
Nahal's Reckless Dweomer
Protection from Evil
Protection from Petrification
Reflected Image
Shield
Shocking Grasp
Sleep
Spook
Arcane Spells Level 2
Agannazar's Scorcher
Blur
Chaos Shield
Deafness
Detect Invisibility
Ghoul Touch
Glitterdust
Horror
Invisibility
Knock
Know Alignment
Luck
Melf's Acid Arrow
Mirror Image
Power Word, Sleep
Ray of Enfeeblement
Resist Fear
Stinking Cloud
Strength
Vocalize
Web
Arcane Spells Level 3
Clairvoyance
Detect Illusion
Dire Charm
Dispel Magic
Fireball
Flame Arrow
Ghost Armor
Haste
Hold Person
Hold Undead
Invisibility 10' Radius
Lightning Bolt
Melf's Minute Meteors
Minor Spell Deflection
Monster Summoning I
Non-Detection
Protection from Cold
Protection from Fire
Protection from Normal Missiles
Remove Magic
Skull Trap
Slow
Spell Thrust
Vampiric Touch
Arcane Spells Level 4
Confusion
Contagion
Emotion: Hopelessness
Enchanted Weapon
Farsight
Fireshield (Blue)
Fireshield (Red)
Greater Malison
Ice Storm
Improved Invisibility
Minor Globe of Invulnerability
Minor Sequencer
Monster Summoning II
Otiluke's Resillient Sphere
Polymorph Other
Polymorph Self
Remove Curse
Secret Word
Spider Spawn
Spirit Armor
Stoneskin
Teleport Field
Wizard Eye
Arcane Spells Level 5
Animate Dead
Breach
Chaos
Cloudkill
Cone of Cold
Conjure Lesser Air Elemental
Conjure Lesser Earth Elemental
Conjure Lesser Fire Elemental
Domination
Feeblemind
Hold Monster
Lower Resistance
Minor Spell Turning
Monster Summoning III
Oracle
Phantom Blade
Protection from Acid
Protection from Electricity
Protection from Normal Weapons
Shadow Door
Spell Immunity
Spell Shield
Sunfire
Arcane Spells Level 6
Carrion Summons
Chain Lightning
Conjure Air Elemental
Conjure Earth Elemental
Conjure Fire Elemental
Contingency
Death Fog
Death Spell
Disintegrate
Flesh to Stone
Globe of Invulnerability
Improved Haste
Invisible Stalker
Mislead
Pierce Magic
Power Word, Silence
Protection from Magic Energy
Protection from Magical Weapons
Spell Deflection
Stone to Flesh
Summon Nishruu
Tenser's Transformation
True Sight
Wyvern Call
Arcane Spells Level 7
Cacofiend
Control Undead
Delayed Blast Fireball
Finger of Death
Improved Chaos Shield
Limited Wish
Mantle
Mass Invisibility
Mordenkainen's Sword
Power Word, Stun
Prismatic Spray
Project Image
Protection from Elements
Ruby Ray of Reversal
Spell Sequencer
Spell Turning
Sphere of Chaos
Summon Djinni
Summon Efreeti
Summon Hakeashar
Khelben's Warding Whip
Arcane Spells Level 8
Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting
Bigby's Clenched Fist
Improved Mantle
Incendiary Cloud
Maze
Pierce Shield
Power Word, Blind
Protection from Energy
Simulacrum
Spell Trigger
Summon Fiend
Symbol, Death
Symbol, Fear
Symbol, Stun
Arcane Spells Level 9
Absolute Immunity
Bigby's Crushing Hand
Black Blade of Disaster
Chain Contingency
Energy Drain
Freedom
Gate
Imprisonment
Meteor Swarm
Power Word, Kill
Shapechange
Spellstrike
Spell Trap
Time Stop
Wail of the Banshee
Wish
Arcane Spells Level 10
Comet
Dragon's Breath
Energy Blades
Improved Alacrity
Summon Dark Planetar
Summon Planetar
Divine Spells

Divine Spells Level 1
Armor of Faith
Bless
Command
Cure Light Wounds
Detect Evil
Doom
Entangle
Magical Stone
Protection from Evil
Remove Fear
Sanctuary
Shillelagh
Divine Spells Level 2
Aid
Barkskin
Chant
Charm Person or Mammal
Draw Upon Holy Might
Find Traps
Flame Blade
Goodberry
Hold Person
Know Alignment
Resist Fire and Cold
Silence 15' Radius
Slow Poison
Spiritual Hammer
Divine Spells Level 3
Animate Dead
Call Lightning
Cure Disease
Cure Medium Wounds
Dispel Magic
Glyph of Warding
Hold Animal
Holy Smite
Invisibility Purge
Miscast Magic
Protection from Fire
Remove Curse
Remove Paralysis
Rigid Thinking
Strength of One
Summon Insects
Unholy Blight
Zone of Sweet Air
Divine Spells Level 4
Animal Summoning I
Call Woodland Being
Cause Serious Wounds
Cloak of Fear
Cure Serious Wounds
Death Ward
Defensive Harmony
Farsight
Free Action
Holy Power
Lesser Restoration
Mental Domination
Negative Plane Protection
Neutralize Poison
Poison
Protection from Evil 10' Radius
Protection from Lightning
Divine Spells Level 5
Animal Summoning II
Cause Critical Wounds
Chaotic Commands
Cure Critical Wounds
Champion's Strength
Flame Strike
Greater Command
Insect Plague
Iron Skins
Magic Resistance
Mass Cure
Pixie Dust
Raise Dead
Repulse Undead
Righteous Magic
Slay Living
True Seeing
Divine Spells Level 6
Aerial Servant
Animal Summoning III
Blade Barrier
Bolt of Glory
Conjure Animals
Conjure Fire Elemental
Dolorous Decay
False Dawn
Fire Seeds
Harm
Heal
Physical Mirror
Sol's Searing Orb
Wondrous Recall
Divine Spells Level 7
Confusion
Conjure Earth Elemental
Creeping Doom
Earthquake
Finger of Death
Firestorm
Gate
Holy Word
Nature's Beauty
Greater Restoration
Resurrection
Shield of the Archons
Sunray
Symbol, Death
Symbol, Fear
Symbol, Stun
Unholy Word
Quest Spells
Aura of Flaming Death
Elemental Summoning
Elemental transformation
Globe of Blades
Greater Elemental Summoning
Implosion
Mass Raise Dead
Storm of Vengeance
Summon Deva
Summon Fallen Deva

Whats that you say? unrealistic expectations? they cant possibly implement and balance all of that?
They don't have to, its already been done in the AD&D IP. In fact that is the actual spell list from baldurs gate II.

So in essence your idea of a great game is one you spend most of your time just not playing the game and just searching for your next ability? I played DnD for a while and really enjoyed it, that's what pen and paper is good for and it works really well. Transferring all that stuff bogs everything down in irrelevancies.

A whole party of people can manage twelve inventories and a nineteens skills and eight and three-quarter crafts as part of a team effort to build and contribute. That is satisfying and works, everyone has their function. All that in a game is just making more and more time you don't actually spend playing the game.

When a game is stopping me from playing it I have to wonder what is christ's name they think they are doing at the developers.

 

[Ladette]

NOOOOOOOOOO! ARRR-PEEE-JEEEEEZZZ are ruined forevuuuuuurrrrrr!!!! I don't like change! Change is bad! No! I demand new things but then I hate them for being different from the old things!

In other news, the OP's sarcasm level is over 8000.

 

[Kortney]

Never listen to the roaring minority. Seriously, for every person posting his or her disapproval of upcoming titles, there are bound many others who don't post, let alone go on forums to post about games.

Took the words right out of my mouth. There is an extremely noisy minority at work here.

For example, take a moment to observe all those people claiming that Bioware ruined Mass Effect forever with the changes in the sequel.

Now compare the sales figures and reviews of ME1 and ME2.

Yeah.

Yep. That's it. Same will happen with Dragon Age 2.

Same happened with Fallout 1 and 2 compared to 3 and New Vegas.

There is always a huge minority of whiners.

I have to agree with that I am truly sorry if this offends anyone but the fallout 1 and 2 loyalists are one of the whiniest groups of complainers I have ever encountered, not the people whom just think the 1st 2 are better but the ones whom are constantly screaming this in any discussion concerning fallout and hate that fallout 3 and NV even exist(you know whom i refer 2)

I agree. Bethesda was the best thing to ever happen to the Fallout universe. They gave it life, made it accessible and fun to thousands of more people within a new demographic and created one of the best RPGs (or action RPG, whatever you want to call it) of all time.

 

[latenightapplepie]

This why developers make games, and not fanboys.

I often have hopes for certain features or elements to be put in some games, but really, in the end, I trust good developers' judgement on what makes a good game.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

3)Despite that, the game should have an amazing story, as funny as Terry Pratchet, as exciting and original as Jim Butcher and as epic as JRR Tolkien. And that story should flow through the main quest and every side quest, each also being totally original, logical and fit the setting like a glove. Completely voice acted of course.

**blinks**

Jim Butcher, original? I mean, I'm a fan of his, and his novels are excellent, but Jim Butcher makes a career out of taking the oldest, most cliche idea he can find, spit-polishing it, and presenting it so damn well that it reads like the most awesome thing ever, even if it is actually a B-plot he wrote on a dare (I'm looking at you, Tavi).

OT: Actually, I think the real issue (sarcasm aside) is that fans want one or the other in a game.

I'd love a game where I played as a pre-scripted character and had no decisions to make (outside of combat, equipment, and strategy) if the story being told was interesting. Those games are better if they are fully voice-acted since there's only one script anyway and since I need that voice-acting so I can relate to the main character I'm playing.

On the other hand, I would also love a game that gave me absolute freedom to do and play as I liked. Personally, I'm sad I can't play an RPG where I'm a spy/cortessan sneaking and seducing my way through a series of enemies, accomplishing my goals without ever relying on killing or a party. That would be awesome. But having that option in a game where another player can murder everything that moves is very, very difficult to program. I realize that. Although a seducy-background and a few seducy dialogue options would make me happier. I want to be able to solve my problems through sexual manipulation - is that wrong?

Ahem. Anyway. The point being that freedom is good, or story is good - I realize I can't have both. It just feels like story games are being made worse by the forced freedom, which often comes off as superficial anyway. I'd honestly like to see a non-JRPG story based game where I can't customize my character.

Oh, and as far as combat goes, well, I like both styles, but there have hardly been any turn-based RPGs lately. I miss them.

 

[Continuity]

The number of people who ***** that RPGs aren't nearly as good as they used to be is totally disproportionate to the number of people who actually enjoy the game. It's only a vocal few who know that the world eagerly awaits their verdict that make it seem as if RPGs are failing.

True and false.

The real situation its that RPG is slipping out of the AAA market, and thats fine I guess, the AAA market does what the AAA market has to do, its turned its back on genre before. However RPGs are alive and well in the indie and low budget market so i'm happy enough.

do you win all your arguments by giving hostile comments to your supporters hm no wonder the game is changing. On second though I cant really complain as I had insulted so many people on this website I think its a miracle that I have not been suspended yet

Well firstly its not my intention to be hostile or insulting, sorry if thats how it comes across, secondly DAO isn't really a bad game, its just not quite to my taste - to be honest I enjoyed mass effect much more. In terms of recent AAA RPGs I can really only think of one that gets the full thumbs up from me and that a hack n'slash hybrid! (the witcher BTW), just goes to show how the scene has changed.

This why developers make games, and not fanboys.

Interplay's original motto:

"by gamers, for gamers."

 

[Evilpigeon]

I don't see what's wrong with expressing my views, even if they are contrary to popular opinion. I mean sure I blow minutia out of proportion but the minutia matter, a big part of RPGs for me is what I take away from it, and when people make changes that get in the way of me reliving that experience in the sequel then I'm not particularly happy.

On ME2: It didn't feel like an rpg and I didn't ejoy the game. There's also a fairly clear trail de-statting in bioware games and I don't like where it's going, I enjoy having mechanics to learn and exploit, not just bars to fill up that make my guns shoot a bit more accurately.