Any hope for RPG's ?

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Continuity

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manythings said:
So in essence your idea of a great game is one you spend most of your time just not playing the game and just searching for your next ability? I played DnD for a while and really enjoyed it, that's what pen and paper is good for and it works really well. Transferring all that stuff bogs everything down in irrelevancies.

A whole party of people can manage twelve inventories and a nineteens skills and eight and three-quarter crafts as part of a team effort to build and contribute. That is satisfying and works, everyone has their function. All that in a game is just making more and more time you don't actually spend playing the game.

When a game is stopping me from playing it I have to wonder what is christ's name they think they are doing at the developers.
Did you play these games? sure you can micromanage every character in the party or you can just have them level up automatically, following preset preferences. Hell, you could even do that for your own character if you were more about the narrative and less about the RPG. As for the inventories.. I like doing that, that is an important part of the game.

You say irrelevancies, I say Depth, choice, and re-playability :- Which is pretty much the definition of RPG... no?
 

Spectrum_Prez

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Any hope for RPGs? I don't know OP, but for me the last 3 years ago have been really really great for RPGs and it has been a period of substantial flourishing.

Let me break it down as I see it.

There are basically three types of RPGs. These three types aim for different things, focus on different gameplay elements, and draw on different traditions. When a game straddles these types, purists will curse it for being a hybrid. What's more, when an RPG straddles the line between it's 'type' and another genre altogether, everyone gets outraged except for the millions of people actually playing the game and loving it.

The three types:
1) Hack and slash level grinders. The central aim of these games is to get you to play it as much as possible, over and over. The gameplay focus is leveling up and getting more loot, making your character/avatar progressively better. The obvious example here is Diablo, but while its spiritual successors have deviated greatly in form, they haven't changed in substance. World of Warcraft and other MMORPGs are the direct successor of Diablo 2, and have improved the hack and slash experience by adding social aspects to the games. Other deviations have included Borderlands, Hellgate: London, and the freeware Diablo clones that pop-up every now and then.

2) Story and character based games. The pedigree of these games is a little bit mixed. Clearly, they draw a lot from adventure games given their relative linearity and focus on telling a good narrative. At the same time, they also focus on character development. For Western RPGs, that usually means D&D inspired development, whereas for JRPGs (which I'm less familiar with) it seems to be mostly development through narrative. Either way, the element of choice in these RPGs is usually confined to your influence on the main character(s) and there is less freedom of what to do next or where to go. Leveling is functional, its purpose is to drive character personalization, not to kill more bad guys. The classic examples would be the Bioware games, lots of JRPGs, and independent gems like VtMB and the Witcher. The overlap with adventure games has *always* been strong. I simply fail to understand the criticism that ME2 is a dumbing down of ME, because Bioware games have always been half RPG, half adventure game.

3) Exploration based games. These games are mainly focused on discovery of new locations, vicarious thrills related to exploring a believable functioning world, and gradually achieving mastery over that world. Usually, these games are open-world. The paradigmatic example would be the Bethesda games, but I would also include GTA (and its clones) and Red Dead Redemption in here, even though they're not usually considered RPGs. The spiritual precursors of these sorts of games would be space exploration games and possibly even 4x strategy games. Story usually suffers because pacing is looser and there is little linearity. There is a lot more freedom to choose what to do next, which adds immersion. But these games are also more ambitious and therefore likely to result in developer overreach. Technical problems also abound, see the horrendous PC port of Saint's Row 2 for the best example.

I think these three archetypes have been around for pretty much a decade now. Certainly it was solidified by the time we had Morrowind, Knights of the Old Republic, and Diablo 2 as the three hottest contemporaneous RPGs. Since then, the idea of a unified RPG genre has been more or less an empty shell since these three types of game pull in different thematic directions. So it certainly shouldn't be surprising when every new release attracts a tonne of critics. Being an 'RPG fan' can be a big part of a person's identity. But because the idea of an RPG is so paper thin now, it's easy to stir up meaningless debate about what is and what isn't true to the term.
 

OtherSideofSky

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Wow. Either OP wasn't pretending, or people are taking this topic WAY too seriously.
Personally, I've mainly been playing turn based SRPGs lately and having a great time. I've been trying a regular RPG here and there, though, and quite frankly I don't see why so many people keep complaining about the genre going to hell in a handbasket. Enough different companies seem to be trying enough different things that there ought to be something out there for almost anyone (excepting, of course, Front Mission fans outside of Japan who don't like shitty TPSs).
 

kingcom

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Kortney said:
Zhukov said:
Sp3ratus said:
Never listen to the roaring minority. Seriously, for every person posting his or her disapproval of upcoming titles, there are bound many others who don't post, let alone go on forums to post about games.
Took the words right out of my mouth. There is an extremely noisy minority at work here.

For example, take a moment to observe all those people claiming that Bioware ruined Mass Effect forever with the changes in the sequel.

Now compare the sales figures and reviews of ME1 and ME2.

Yeah.
Yep. That's it. Same will happen with Dragon Age 2.

Same happened with Fallout 1 and 2 compared to 3 and New Vegas.

There is always a huge minority of whiners.
Or theres just a bunch of people who know they will never get to see games made for them ever again? That every time they see the hope of the type of game they like appearing, its taken away? You know people have different tastes in games, the people who complain have different tastes to the people buying and not complaining.
 

kingcom

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Spectrum_Prez said:
I simply fail to understand the criticism that ME2 is a dumbing down of ME, because Bioware games have always been half RPG, half adventure game.
No they havn't
 

latenightapplepie

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Continuity said:
latenightapplepie said:
This why developers make games, and not fanboys.
Interplay's original motto:

"by gamers, for gamers."
Of course developers need to be play games themselves, I wasn't suggesting otherwise. I was just saying that by disregarding your own ideas as a developer, and making a game purely envisaged by your audience; that is a dumb move. There's a reason why they are the developers and I am the consumer; I have no idea what I'm doing, and they do. Sure there are instances when listening to your consumers is prudent. But only listening to them is foolish.

joebear15 said:
latenightapplepie said:
This why developers make games, and not fanboys.

I have hopes for content to be put in some games, but really, in the end, I trust good developers' judgement on what makes a good game.
good is in the eye of he beholder you should not trust anyones judgment but your own on what I good game is or is not.
I think I may have phrased that poorly. I mean I trust game developers' judgements more on what makes a good game than the fantastic expectations and demands of the rabid fanboys.
 

TrevorGruen

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I love the bit "few simple requests". Those 3 things are the least simple things a game could have (to make a game with those 3 factors would take too much time and money for most developers to consider it). But hopefully the post was done sarcastically. =D
 

Kortney

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kingcom said:
Kortney said:
Zhukov said:
Sp3ratus said:
Never listen to the roaring minority. Seriously, for every person posting his or her disapproval of upcoming titles, there are bound many others who don't post, let alone go on forums to post about games.
Took the words right out of my mouth. There is an extremely noisy minority at work here.

For example, take a moment to observe all those people claiming that Bioware ruined Mass Effect forever with the changes in the sequel.

Now compare the sales figures and reviews of ME1 and ME2.

Yeah.
Yep. That's it. Same will happen with Dragon Age 2.

Same happened with Fallout 1 and 2 compared to 3 and New Vegas.

There is always a huge minority of whiners.
Or theres just a bunch of people who know they will never get to see games made for them ever again? That every time they see the hope of the type of game they like appearing, its taken away? You know people have different tastes in games, the people who complain have different tastes to the people buying and not complaining.
That doesn't change the fact they are whiners.

If I preferred silent films over the films of today, and started raging over internet forums repeatedly about how Chris Nolan is an idiot because Inception isn't silent I'd be called a whiner. Same thing with old school Fallout fans. I believe people should just get over it. Play older games if you prefer them. You wouldn't believe the amount of whiners I've seen on forums who insult Bethesda for making Fallout 3 a real time FPS. It's annoying. Really annoying.


It's a fact of life that certain things just die out. Fallout 1 and 2 wouldn't sell today. Gamers wouldn't find them as fun today. If you want to play top down turn based combat like Fallout 1 and 2, find an indie game that does it - or play older game. Don't demand a rework of the industry just because your tastes are old fashioned.

My favourite genre is film is dead. Is it upsetting? Yes. But I get over it and I don't go around whining about how modern movies that aren't old fashioned musicals in black and white suck donkey balls.
 

Vault101

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manythings said:
DasDestroyer said:
My sarcasm sense is tingling...
And if it is correct, then the true meaning of this post is to rant about the crazy requests of RPG fans. Am I on the right track?
YOU SHOULD BE SERIOUS! ARGLE-BARGLE-DARGLE! PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE INDUSTRY! JARGLE! GAMES SHOULD ALWAYS BE EXACTLY WHAT I WANT BECAUSE I AM THE MOST PERFECTEST AND IMPORTANT PERSON IN THE WORLD OF GAMING AND IF THEY AREN'T IT'S NOT BECAUSE MY REQUIREMENTS ARE RETARDED IT'S BECAUSE EVERYONE ELSE IS MADE OF GAY!

OT: Anyone bitching about RPGs is probably full of shit and, since too many fucking very different games are called RPGs, we can't really all get exactly what we want. I'm mostly just happy that I live in a world with BioWare. Your options are play or don't play. Vote with your wallet and, if enough people agree with you, the industy will change. If the game you so vehemently hate sells 10,000,000 copies, too bad.
I agree completley and I think Dragon age 2 will be good
 

Continuity

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kingcom said:
Or theres just a bunch of people who know they will never get to see games made for them ever again? That every time they see the hope of the type of game they like appearing, its taken away? You know people have different tastes in games, the people who complain have different tastes to the people buying and not complaining.
I don't want to pimp these guys out too much, but if you haven't come across them you should take a look at Iron tower and Doublebear. They have a couple of very nice looking RPGs nearing completion (indie and low budget of course).

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/

http://www.deadstate.doublebearproductions.com/about/
 

Spectrum_Prez

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kingcom said:
Spectrum_Prez said:
I simply fail to understand the criticism that ME2 is a dumbing down of ME, because Bioware games have always been half RPG, half adventure game.
No they havn't
Well, it's more that I think the distinction between 'story-based RPGs' and 'adventure games' has always been very artificial. They're both about story and character. That's it. Whether you show character development systematically through leveling up or more informally through getting new weapons and abilities, it's all basically the same thing.
 

mikespoff

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Chibz said:
linwolf said:
Because a DM have about 5 people he has to satisfy, a corporation can have millions. That makes it way harder to make sure that everyone is happy.
It doesn't really matter the scale of people you need to satisfy. There are many, MANY tricks to give the illusion of freedom/choice, while really offering none.
On top of that, the DM can actually see the players and react to them. The designer has to try to anticipate how the player will behave and preemptively write the story around his anticipated actions. Much harder.

I personally think that RPG developers are doing ok. With the current crop of Dragon Age and Mass Effect lines from Bioware, coupled with the Fallout 3 and New Vegas offerings, plus The Witcher 1 & 2 and now ElderScrolls V: Skyrim on the horizon, I think there are some great RPGs being made. Not all of them are quite to my taste, but that's ok too.
 

infohippie

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Zhukov said:
Took the words right out of my mouth. There is an extremely noisy minority at work here.

For example, take a moment to observe all those people claiming that Bioware ruined Mass Effect forever with the changes in the sequel.

Now compare the sales figures and reviews of ME1 and ME2.

Yeah.
Yeah, because more popular means a better game, every time, right? For that matter, American Idol and similar shows in other countries are much much better than, say, Firefly, right? I mean just look at the viewing figures, they don't lie! And Twilight is so much better a film than Let the Right One In, after all the ticket takings tell the whole story, right? And, well, Justin Bieber...
Remember, the vast majority of people don't have taste. Expanding anything niche to a larger audience will inevitably mean at least a little dumbing down.

Calibretto said:
Exactly How I feel and I have never been vocal about it until now due to the OP stating that everyone who feels that way is straight away some vocal idiot ranting like a fool proclaiming the end of the world in the middle of times square.
I was disgusted I couldnt go to tactical view in DAO2 like to the point that I was like... Do I even want to buy this?
Wait, what? I haven't been keeping up with DA2 news since I've been too busy reading about The Witcher 2 and Skyrim, but really? You can't go into tactical view in DA2? WTF are they thinking? I weep for Bioware's lost potential.
 

kingcom

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Kortney said:
That doesn't change the fact they are whiners.

If I preferred silent films over the films of today, and started raging over internet forums repeatedly about how Chris Nolan is an idiot because Inception isn't silent I'd be called a whiner. Same thing with old school Fallout fans. I believe people should just get over it. Play older games if you prefer them. You wouldn't believe the amount of whiners I've seen on forums who insult Bethesda for making Fallout 3 a real time FPS. It's annoying. Really annoying.

It's a fact of life that certain things just die out. Fallout 1 and 2 wouldn't sell today. Gamers wouldn't find them as fun today. If you want to play top down turn based combat like Fallout 1 and 2, find an indie game that does it - or play older game. Don't demand a rework of the industry just because your tastes are old fashioned.

My favourite genre is film is dead. Is it upsetting? Yes. But I get over it and I don't go around whining about how modern movies that aren't old fashioned musicals in black and white suck donkey balls.
Every single facet of human society contains an subsect of whiners, why is this particular group any different? Particularly when they are complaining in an environment that might actually help them. Their complaints might persuade developers to choose one decision over another (just as it works against them). These complaints actually do something, unlike your case study.
 

jcw163

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To you OP I say, for the sake of your sanity, stay the hell away from the Bioware boards for a good few months.

Christ, you'd think Dragon Age 2 was a harbinger of the apocalypse
 

kingcom

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Continuity said:
kingcom said:
Or theres just a bunch of people who know they will never get to see games made for them ever again? That every time they see the hope of the type of game they like appearing, its taken away? You know people have different tastes in games, the people who complain have different tastes to the people buying and not complaining.
I don't want to pimp these guys out too much, but if you haven't come across them you should take a look at Iron tower and Doublebear. They have a couple of very nice looking RPGs nearing completion (indie and low budget of course).

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/

http://www.deadstate.doublebearproductions.com/about/
Yea I know about deadstate, the game that seems remarkably similiar to the UFO:After series could be a bit of fun. Age of Decadence doesn't look particularly great though, most frustrating aspect of fallout 1 & 2 was the combat system (IMO) and that seems to be the core focus here. I don't know, ill give the demo a go.
 

kingcom

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Spectrum_Prez said:
kingcom said:
Spectrum_Prez said:
I simply fail to understand the criticism that ME2 is a dumbing down of ME, because Bioware games have always been half RPG, half adventure game.
No they havn't
Well, it's more that I think the distinction between 'story-based RPGs' and 'adventure games' has always been very artificial. They're both about story and character. That's it. Whether you show character development systematically through leveling up or more informally through getting new weapons and abilities, it's all basically the same thing.
Thats your definition I guess, though an RPG was once about roleplaying but that doesn't seem to matter as a definition anymore.

jcw163 said:
To you OP I say, for the sake of your sanity, stay the hell away from the Bioware boards for a good few months.

Christ, you'd think Dragon Age 2 was a harbinger of the apocalypse
No its just the signal that Bioware isn't going to make a certain type of game anymore.
 

emeraldrafael

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Haha, OP you're funny. I remember when I was young and an idealist.

I dont see why an RPG has to be turn based. The ones I usually play are turn based, but I play alot of SMT games. I'm sure there are good non turn based rpgs.

Also, its kinda hard to give someone a true sandbox world. You need to have some structure. Even inFAMOUS made you have some kinda guiding rod.

Yeah, no. Voice acting isnt a requirement in RPGs and personally I enjoy the silent character more. I loved how Custom Robo for the Jesus box (gamecube) did it where everyone kinda spoke in this musical sorta things. IN fact, if a game ran more like an orchestra or symphany where every character gets a certain instrument, that would be awesome, as long as its appropriate.

Finally, and I can never say this enough. Game companies are businesses. They dont care about us, just our green. Which either suggests youre sarcastic or trolling.