Anybody tired of the Zelda formula?

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donquixote

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Aug 18, 2006
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How innovative, as opposed to 'refined', is the Legend of Zelda series? Comparing it to, say, the Final Fantasy series, is there really any difference beyond the genre (action/adventure to RPG) and number of titles?

Will you miss the last Zelda ever (of this style that is) or are you already looking forward to new game play mechanics? Do you think Twilight Princess is a genre killer?
 

Bongo Bill

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Jul 13, 2006
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They pretty much use a formula for everything but the story. Even the radical departures (Majora's Mask, namely) are still based around the original model of quest-dungeon-item-boss. And why not? It produces some very compelling results, and is a solid framework for puzzle-based progression. I would look to Twilight Princess not as the genre killer, but as the first really shining example of what the model can accomplish in 3D. The way the equipment was used (whose variety, in addition to the puzzle-filled dungeons, is in my opinion the defining element of the Zelda formula and series) was not only inspired, but inspiring as well. That is, the inventory in Twilight Princess is not going to become the inventory for every dungeon-puzzle-adventure, because rather than defining the boundaries of the equipment's usefulness, it demonstrated that the equipment's usefulness was a place which had not yet been creatively explored in a good long while. Not a genre killer, then, but a genre (re)opener.
 

Blaxton

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Dec 14, 2006
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There are so many aspects of Zelda that should be listed as innovative. Nintendo basically designed acton-adventure gaming in 2d on early gen systems, then once again in 3-d when the N64 came out. If anyone should be looked at for failing to innovate it should other developers that consistantly rely on Nintendo to give them their successful mechanics.

Recently I saw the same question asked on X-Play by a viewer. Basically their opinion, though perhaps a little TOO one sided, was the same.

The first Final Fantasy (Square) itself owes a lot to the Dragon Quest (Enix) series. After a number of unsuccessful games, Final Fantasy was rumored to be the last game that Square was going to produce. The game, implementing the DQ mechanics, ended up being a success.

Both Zelda and FF utilize cliched stories of good vs. evil. Some of my friends are big FF fans, and they point at the stories to support their feelings. The stories are definately developed more than most Zelda games, but they still aren't deep. Also, Zelda has become increasly story driven, and Twilight Princess is another big jump in that respect. In all, I feel that neither franchise provides a rich story that compells me to play further; the changing game mechanics are all that keep me coming back.

On a personal note, I think Twilight Princess was a fairly weak entry. Yes, they story was better and fans were once again provided with a serious graphical experience (instead of that darned cartoon style), but the controls on the Wii weren't up to snuff. Beyond the controls, the dungeon exploration felt like it hadn't changed at all since Ocarina, and boss battles actually took a big step back in difficulty and fun. I think Zelda is due for another drastic overhaul, because, as so many other franchises have shown, charm and fanboy-love can only carry a game for so long before people get tired of it. Why play the same story with the same mechanics if you can play a game with a slightly different story, slightly different characters, and the same mechanics? As a whole, however, you can't take away everything that Zelda has been for the video game industry.
 

mrplaid

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Jan 24, 2007
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Yeah, TP really proved that the Zelda series is in grave danger of becoming stale. A lot of people said that Wind Waker was the last Zelda game that really moved the series forward gameplay-wise and that TP just felt like OoC part 2, and I completely agree.
Hopefully Nintendo will take Majora's Mask as an example and use TP as a jumping-off point for the next game in the series. Although it wouldn't surprise me to see the next game be a slight iteration on the tried and true TP formula since it was such a success.
And since the handheld Zelda's don't seem too scared to deviate from the formula, so there's still Phantom Hourglass to look forward to.
 

patbox [deprecated]

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May 17, 2007
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An overrwhelming yes is my answer. Although I thoroughly enjoyed TP, it did at parts feel rather tired. I'm sure if one hadn't have followed the franchise for a long time it would have been an amazing experience, but for me, it just felt too much like an OOT-clone. Nintendo must innovate within this franchise or risk losing its fanbase. They should shut themselves away, say bye-bye to the fanboys and focus on creating a masterpiece. IMO both OOT and MM achieved this, although some people will disagree with the latter. But those titles had the benefit of being first-in-line in the 3d transition of the series. Zelda doesn't haven that anymore (TP certainly didn't) , and demands a drastic overhaul.
 

Ajar

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Aug 21, 2006
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Yes, I'm tired of it.

It's taken me a good 7 or 8 months to get even 2/3 of the way through Okami for precisely that reason. I really enjoy the game, but even though I've only played Wind Waker and the first few hours of OoT, I'm tired of the formula and only want it in relatively small doses.
 

Russ Pitts

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May 1, 2006
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I am not, nor will I ever be. I can understand why it feels boring to people who play the continually updated FF games, or the neverending stream of innovative RPGs coming from Japan, but comparing Zelda to these games is like comparing Tolstoy to Steinbeck. You can hack at that comparison all day and not get anywhere.

Instead of tired and uninspiring, I find the games' similarity to be welcoming and reassuring. Rupies do this, hearts do this ... got it. There's no learning curve, and when something new does rear its head, it's exciting and fun. Twilight Princess has some of the most inspired level design I've seen (along with some of the most punishing). I'm over 70 hours in and I'm enjoying every minute of it.

I've heard the following criticism of SF novels, that they require too large an investment of time just to figure out what the hell is going on, what planet we're on, and who the "Zargwolfers" are. I don't share this concern, but it is nice to find a good, long series of books, where each story builds on the last, and the Zargwolfers get to explore their true depth of character. Zelda is the game version of this.

I wouldn't call any Zelda a genre-killer, because I'm really not sure what genre they are. Sure, you can name your character, but you're not role-playing. Link rarely participates in the story except to build bridges and kill things, but it's a bit deeper than a typical action game. I think it'd be most correct to call it the genre of Zelda and leave it at that.
 

patbox [deprecated]

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May 17, 2007
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Yes Zelda is refreshing in that you kind of know everything about the world, you know the little things that make it special. And thats great for drawing you into the world. But Zelda used to be at the forefront of gaming - it pretty much defined what would appear in adventure games as well as other genres. I know its difficult to bring something new and completely original these days because of how far we've actually come, but Zelda is no longer that leader, and TP certainly didn't show me anything that I thought "Someone's gonna copy this". It didn't startle me.
 

Goofonian

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Jul 14, 2006
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I'm not sick of zelda yet. I may become if it continues to not change for the next 20 years, but honestly, the fact that TP is essentially OoT 2 doesn't bother me. I play sequels that are the same as the original (and enjoy them) all the time. The only difference is that there were a few completely different zelda games inbetween, so i feel like I'd gotten used to seeing more of a change in the new zelda games.

I can't wait for Phantom hourglass. I liked windwaker lots, and I didnt even mind the art style. If it was going to be wind waker 2, I would still buy it and love it. The fact that its going to be played completely with the stylus has me incedibly excited. Unlike the wii controls (that were overlaid onto the existing gamecube controls and felt tacky) phantom hourglass has been made from the ground up for this control scheme, so I have no doubt that it will feel perfectly natural and make the game all that much more fun.
 

Blaxton

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Dec 14, 2006
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I think TP, had poor level design. They were large, they had a lot of little neat aspects and features, but they were more frustrating than anything for me. I always felt like I was exploring the large expanses over and over in order to do one inane thing that I forgot to do earlier. I respect the "map" and "compass" items, but at the same time I think they just need to be a given. I don't like wandering around lost, and my sense of direction in game is not nearly as it is in real life. I can understand not granting the over world map to gamers without personal discovery, it makes sense on several levels (reducing overwhelming information at the start, making the nav-able world feel more mysterious and ripe for exploration), but the mechanical, objective-oriented aspects of the game, the dungeons and temples, let me know where I'm going; throw me a bone. Or give me some tool tips (name, short description) when I bring up my map so that circular room with small doorway on the right is easy to recognize as being different from circular room with small doorway on the left. Metroid Prime did this imperfectly (with names, at least) I was grateful for it.

Honestly, all the jar and block moving in TP really pissed me off. If you were to retell the story of the Twilight Princess to your friends, you wouldn't have countless reports that sounded similar to "and then Link slid the ice block up, down, left. Then he took the second ice block and moved it left, up. Then he took the third....? That?s a really boring story, and, in my opinion a terrible way to introduce puzzles.

I like to know that I'm to solve a puzzle, but the whole "hey, here's something ridiculous in a world where something like this wouldn't logically exist" is not the way to do it.

I like to bring up Prince Of Persia in these situations, and I think its fair to do here. The most recent port, Rival Swords, was a better reason to have a Wii than TP turned out to be. Though the story was equally weak, and the mechanics sometimes buggy, it made use of puzzles that are interesting and laid within the environments in a realistic way (for the most part). Controlling the prince through his acrobatics is a lot more exciting and fun that moving blocks around, and I believe it can be equally as challenging (and therefore rewarding). And, that?s right, you're not crazy: I just said a Prince of Persia port was better than Wii's flagship (port) game.

I agree with you, though, Russ, that similar game-play should be welcomed. People complain that this makes games boring. The games with the same mechanics aren't boring because they are a bad idea, they are boring because they have no substance beyond some stupid story about saving the world/princess/friend/lover/family member. I like that I can easily interface with my world the second I'm put into it.

Imagine having to learn how to interface with a new book every time you picked one up. I think this is where the GameCube controller really struck me as important. I shouldn't have to guess which buttons are important because then I'm not really playing the game for the first hour, but rather learning how to play it. That?s a waste of my time; I play enough games that I shouldn't have to do that. Most games aren't good enough that they should require me to do that.

I must say though, as far as Sci Fi books go: I just read Snow Crash a few weeks ago, and I'm quite glad that I grew up with a computer, got my degree in Psychology and English, and elected to take a number of religious courses (as well as being raised catholic--turned atheist about 10 years ago). I would have been lost otherwise.
 

Dom Camus

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Sep 8, 2006
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donquixote said:
Comparing it to, say, the Final Fantasy series [...] Do you think Twilight Princess is a genre killer?
Don't know about that, but Final Fantasy XII killed FF for me. I was astonished by how poorly the designers seemed to understand the fundamentals of their own game.
 
May 17, 2007
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I'm split on this. It's hard to see how they could change the gameplay without making it less perfect (aside from micro-changes like altering some of the more obtuse temples). And it's hard to make a great case that Nintendo need to change it urgently, when Twilight Princess got an average review score of 95% [http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/legendofzeldatwilightprincess] and was the system-seller for the Wii. The gameplay is superb and accessible to new players, which is a damn fine balancing act.

But the story! Ye gods!

Russ Pitts said:
it is nice to find a good, long series of books, where each story builds on the last, and the Zargwolfers get to explore their true depth of character. Zelda is the game version of this.
But Zelda never develops or explores the characters. They go through the same shallow "Princess Peach is in another castle" every time around. It's the R.L. Stine's Goosebumps of game series: the same plot with the same one-dimensional characters fighting the same cackling evil stereotype.

Sure, you feel like you get to know them. But after hundreds of hours with him, how much do you know about Link's political views/family history/friends/reading tastes? What are his motivations? "Do the right thing" and "Save everyone."

Zelda usually gets called an RPG, but I'd be hard pressed to think of an FPS or RTS with a storyline as thin.
 

Russ Pitts

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May 1, 2006
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Fraser, if you played Twilight Princess I'm not sure we played the same game. It wasn't War and Peace, but the game I played had a pretty cool story, and with subtle shadings of the previous installments, provided just the right amount of involvement for my taste.
 

Charli

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Yup. I'm still waiting for a Modern day Zelda. No seriously. Do it and do it right, and you'll never again see anything as good. Gaming will be over. :O (exagerations rock)

And no we don't need to know things about Link. He stays Mute. okay? Don't ruin a good thing.

Things always go bad when long time gaming favorites open their yaps for the first time. It's okay if they speak from the get go but not Link, please not link. I like him mute.
...That way I feel better when I send him careening off a large cliff into the inevitable spikey rock pit below.
 

CinosNroca

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May 31, 2009
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I dunno, I kinda liked LoZ:TP. Maybe I am a retarded fanboy, but I almost cried at the ending sequence, and if a game can make me do that, then it is good in my books. I also don't think that LoZ:TP is a genre killer, it is my hopes that Nintendo will make a few more Zelda games like this one, and possibly make them connect in a semblence of a timeline.
 

Kajt

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No, I'm not tired of the "Zelda formula", it's just too damn good.
 

Signa

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Jul 16, 2008
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holy shit a two year old thread!

I'm not tired of the Zelda formula at all. Even though it does seem a little stale, I can't look to any other franchises that come even close to reproducing the fun and feel of Zelda. Maybe if they want to pump out another 2 Okami sequels, I might feel differently, but Zelda is still the place to go for "Zelda action." It sounds a little cliche, but Zelda is not Sonic, and is still alive and being all it can be.
 

SmilingKitsune

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Dec 16, 2008
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What foul necromancy is this? A two year old thread brought back from the grave!
On topic, nah, I don't think I'll ever get bored of the Zelda formula, as long as the games remain good, though I haven't played TP since I don't have a Wii.