Anyone else bothered by the increased blurring of gender roles?

[Gorrila_thinktank]

Hmm... I see what your getting at, and I think your right to be curious and I note your concern. but i think that the feminization of men that you detect[now aware of] is a sitiuation[symptom/born/coming] from other casues [~illness].

Try loking up this and its other parts if you want more information: The Myth Of Male Power - Warren Farrell


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFtGwBsKgKs

On the personal level I saw[past] women steping into the traditonal male sphere [female rights movment], but now I see the males seeping[flowing/sinking/moveing] into the tradioinal female roles[feminization]. unfortanatly becasue no one is proclaiming this to the world these men fall short percing[moveing into/fully] the tradtional female domain.

 

[TrogzTheTroll]

Welcome to 2010. Clearly you've just taken a visit from July 1914.

Men don't need to be manly any more and women don't need to be the damsel in distress. If we kept it like that then the grim reality is that there would be a lot of uncomfortable people in the world.

Calumon: Does this mean Jack can be someone's mommy?

I think he just means that guys have really changed from the usual of being at least somewhat strong and assertive. I think he's just worried that boys are turning into something weird and unreliable, like guys with multiple personalities.

 

[kikon9]

Trust me, manly men will never die out. Besides, I enjoy being able to act feminine in public. Also, if the genders become truly equal, then women will be able to protect themselves and either gender will be able to lead.

 

[lettucethesallad]

I'm actually with you on this one. I'm female, but have been described as having both a 'stereotypical male brain and stereotypical female brain at once', so I'm probably not your average chick. I was raised with a stay-at-home mom until I was 6 or 7 while my dad worked outside the home, and I'm planning on trying to at least spend a significant amount of time at home if I someday become a mom. Luckily, the job I have allows me to work from home, so technically this shouldn't be an issue.

The response I get from a lot of people (mainly women) is that what I want to do is 'demeaning' and sexist. When I say I like to take care of a man I'm dating (cooking dinner, making cookies, 'housewife-y' things that I thoroughly enjoy), I hear that I'm a slave to gender norms and that it's wrong.

Just because men and women should be treated equal (which I'm all for), does NOT mean that we're the same. People aren't sprung from the same mold in general, but there is a biological difference between the male and female. When feminism is discussed it's typically about how women should act more typically male - having careers, taking more space, being more goal oriented (which is fine), whereas those things that typically have been seen to be female are secondary at best, and 'demeaning' things to do.

 

[Psycho Cat Industries]

You should rename this topic.It is not really the blurring of gender roles so much as a media mongering on your parent's paranoia.

 

[Eldarion]

Well, since women don't need men to protect them anymore let's hope we are never invaded because very few men today were taught to fight. I am sure women can hold their own though against an invading army.

It has been mentioned that masculinity is not needed in todays world. Well, there are still alot of professions that most women don't want. Dangerous and dirty jobs are predominately male. Don't see alot of women mining or working in the sewers. Even in everyday jobs where heavy lifting is required, men are required to the lifting. I have seen more than a few female clerks at Wal Mart call for a man to lift something heavy.

I wonder, would society collapse if men just stopped working, maybe moved to an island and left the running of society to women? After all, masculinity isn't needed in todays world.

This only makes sense if masculinity and feminine behavior is exclusive to men or women. It isn't, the women you see asking for a man to lift something aren't incapable of lifting heavy things because they are women, its because they as individuals just happen to not be very strong.

 

[jamesworkshop]

You may not intend to set women back, but that is what you're doing when you say that they need protected or that men have traits they are built for sociologically that women arent. Or that Women would be less suited for them.

Personally, I dont see anything wrong with it. The "feminization" of men is what is allowing the gay and lesbian culture to make a nice emergence. Its also letting those soft spoken boys who like to write stories and poetry have an easier time. I mean, if you think about it, if you took Charles Dickens, or Edgar Allen Poe, or William Shakespeare and put them into today's culture where muscle headed dumbshits are the ideal manly image in America, we wouldnt have the stories and poems that we do now (whether you like them or not).

Its also allowing the arts to come back and let men be apart of it. things like Fencing, track running, and other such sports that require a man to be lithe, lean and sleek arent being laughed as as much in comparison to the burly 300+ pound football player.

I'm slightly puzzled here at what point have Charles Dickens, or Edgar Allen Poe, or William Shakespeare been considered feminine.
Also at what point have men been ostrasised from the arts or the Arts themselves be sidelined
When did people poke derision at Usain bolt
Which period of recent history lacked poetry or the writing of novels

 

[Jaded Scribe]

I have two sons, and yes, I would rather them get a college degree and a real job (in whatever field they choose) than be a "manly man" and become a lumberjack, or a trucker, or any of that. The pay is better, the ability to advance is better, and it provides them with a better life.

Isn't that what every parent should be looking for for their kids?

Sorry, buddy. But the days when "real" men carried their brains in their biceps is long gone. Intelligence > physical might. And I think you and the OP are in the distinct minority of people who are sorry to see these bygone stereotypes go away.

Just tell me this: How do you know what's better for your boys? Or men in general? How CAN you know what men actually need? FYI I've been raised in a very feminine family and I fucking know how it messes up with ones head. A male brain is a completely different thing than a female brain. You can't just pour your ideas and ideals into it and expect it to work fine.

The male and female world, based on BIOLOGY (like brain patterns) is very different. One gender can not understand the other. I have always been with women so I have some idea how a female mind works, but it's still a completely different think. Don't assume you know what men need and what they feel. You have no clue, whether you believe it or not.

The problem is, the society of today assumes we can just pour boys and girls into one giant bin, stir and create ideal, basically genderless people who differ only in some appendages. That's just bullshit.

One thing both genders need from each other is respect for ones differences. There's just not enough of that.

I'm not saying all men should return to being lumberjacks. I'm just saying they should not be discouraged from such things.

I don't discourage my boys at all. I'm sorry you don't think you were raised right. Yes, there are biological issues that have to be addressed. I've brought it up many times when feminists complain about a lack of women in the gaming industry. Most of the girls I know just don't have the interest to become game developers, even if they are avid gamers. Men and women are primarily wired a little differently.

But, on the flip side, how do you know that it was your "feminine" upbringing that fucked with your head, and not something else, whether inherent in your biology or your experiences?

If one of my boys was overtaken with a burning desire to cut lumber, fine. All I ask is that he get a college degree first (in what field, I don't care). And I expect that regardless if they want to be a musician, an artist, or whatever. It provides a backup.

They lose nothing by being raised to be in touch with their feelings. That it's ok to cry if they are upset (with some caveats about the appropriate time and place), that they should be attentive to the feelings of others, and encouraging empathy and a nurturing attitude.

As a result, I have two of the sweetest boys you'll ever meet. They think about others, give freely to help those in need.

But at the same time, they run, jump, play, fight with each other, and enjoy all the traditionalist things a boy is expected to enjoy.

 

[maturin]

For example, one thing that particularly bothers me is how popular it is on TV shows to portray husbands and fathers as bumbling idiots who are easily controlled by their wives and children.

Oh shit, you mean we can't control our wives anymore?

How are these boys going to grow up to be leaders of men and protectors of women?

Protected from bears, perhaps?

From Post #19: Never once did I suggest or condone a return to a time of women being "barefoot and pregnant" in the kitchen while the manly men went out to hunt bears. I like that women work and men have shared responsibility with children. I don't think the father/husband should hold a dictatorship over his household and beat his wife and kids.

See above. If people thought you meant that, it's your own fault.

But boys and male teens today are increasingly turning into overly sensitive delicate flowers

(Citation Needed)

Where is this place without testosterone addled teens and overly aggressive hooligans and can I please go there?

Our culture today is nowhere near as 'girly' as male culture was in Europe two hundred years, yet they still managed to brutally subjugate most of the world without too much trouble.

You should rename this topic.It is not really the blurring of gender roles so much as a media mongering on your parent's paranoia.

Nevermind what I said, OP, just read this pithy goodness again.

 

[Eldarion]

You may not intend to set women back, but that is what you're doing when you say that they need protected or that men have traits they are built for sociologically that women arent. Or that Women would be less suited for them.

Personally, I dont see anything wrong with it. The "feminization" of men is what is allowing the gay and lesbian culture to make a nice emergence. Its also letting those soft spoken boys who like to write stories and poetry have an easier time. I mean, if you think about it, if you took Charles Dickens, or Edgar Allen Poe, or William Shakespeare and put them into today's culture where muscle headed dumbshits are the ideal manly image in America, we wouldnt have the stories and poems that we do now (whether you like them or not).

Its also allowing the arts to come back and let men be apart of it. things like Fencing, track running, and other such sports that require a man to be lithe, lean and sleek arent being laughed as as much in comparison to the burly 300+ pound football player.

I'm slightly puzzled here at what point have Charles Dickens, or Edgar Allen Poe, or William Shakespeare been considered feminine.
Also at what point have men been ostrasised from the arts or the Arts themselves be sidelined
When did people poke derision at Usain bolt
Which period of recent history lacked poetry or the writing of novels

Back when those minds where young they didn't live in a culture that has jocks bullying the small poet boys in school. Not being a macho guy wasn't looked down on as much then as it is now.

 

[VGStrife]

I am sorry to say this but gender roles are something completly arbitrary. Want proof?

Name one thing that men can do better/different than women and that has any relevance in today's world.

Physical strenght, right. But is this relevant for us?
Nope.

In this world of gunpowder and tasers, this lone attribute becomes meaningless. A woman can drive a tank just as well as any man.

So. Are gender roles starting to fade? Yes.
Is this a bad thing? Depends on your point of view.
Are gender roles something necessary? Probably not.

Builder, Fitter, Mechanic etc?

There are plenty of jobs that need a degree of physical strength.
Yes women could do them, but the strength required comes more easily to males as we are genetically designed to be stronger.

OT:There are still strong men, and women that are happy being housewives, these people are no more or less 'socially advanced' than people who act differently, it just depends what they are happy doing.

I personally wish I got the respect I would have from people in the street 30 years ago...but that is a topic for another time.

 

[spartandude]

i couldnt care less about blurring gender rolls, male or female people are still people

 

[Eldarion]

Well, since women don't need men to protect them anymore let's hope we are never invaded because very few men today were taught to fight. I am sure women can hold their own though against an invading army.

It has been mentioned that masculinity is not needed in todays world. Well, there are still alot of professions that most women don't want. Dangerous and dirty jobs are predominately male. Don't see alot of women mining or working in the sewers. Even in everyday jobs where heavy lifting is required, men are required to the lifting. I have seen more than a few female clerks at Wal Mart call for a man to lift something heavy.

I wonder, would society collapse if men just stopped working, maybe moved to an island and left the running of society to women? After all, masculinity isn't needed in todays world.

This only makes sense if masculinity and feminine behavior is exclusive to men or women. It isn't, the women you see asking for a man to lift something aren't incapable of lifting heavy things because they are women, its because they as individuals just happen to not be very strong.

Ah, so it would ok for a weak man to call a strong woman to do the heavy lifting? You know as well as I how socially unacceptable that would be.

So what do you think, if men just moved to an island and left everything to the women to run, how would it go?

It would go fine because men and women are equally capable in society. Masculine and feminine traits develop at the individual level regardless of gender.

I work at wal mart, I can't lift pallets. I usually get a female coworker I work with to get them for me or help me with the heavy loads. No one belittles me about this, because most people have moved on from pre convinced gender notions.

 

[Sporky111]

No, not a bit. What you're talking about is more like modern society softening people in general. You're expecting teens to be manly and strong, but today's society (especially in a urban setting, which is where I'm guessing you live) teaches a lot of kids that they don't have to work for what they want and they don't have to be tough because they can just ask for help when they need it.

I'm sure if you had a group of equal boys and girls then you would have the same amount of hypochondriacs, sissies and whiners. That's just how teens are. Let them grow up and get a taste of the real world and they'll toughen up a bit. I know, because I was a scared little crybaby until I was about 16.

Just don't worry so much about other people. Gender roles are a fantasy, and we don't need them anymore because anyone can fit any role they want. Who's to say that all men have to be leaders and protectors? Now we know who the real leaders and protectors are because they are the ones who stepped up to that role instead of everyone being forced into it.

 

[Watcheroftrends]

I think the only ones who really suffer from this gender blurring are men, to be honest. In society, women have the potential to do everything that men do. Even job wise, women can now make more money than men - men just generally go into more lucrative fields based on interest and aptitude. In other words, men tend to be better at jobs that happen to pay more. If a woman is equally skilled though, I don't believe that a man would be paid more based on gender in today's society.

Where men suffer is in how they are expected to be proper and docile. They can't be "men", but women get to be "women" more than they ever have in history. Men also suffer from double standards more severely. A man is expected to hold the door and do the whole "ladies first" routine. They are also expected to be confident and powerful, yet when it comes to behavior that women see as childish or absurd, they are persecuted. They are women in general behavior, but must also uphold the chivalric side of being a man. They embody what women want, but not what men themselves want.

All of this really boils down to how men want a woman as a mate, so they must appease them by filling a certain social role. I know many women will argue that they've met guys that are truly just nice guys, but the underlying reason is that, at the end of the day, that man "wants you", which sounds shallow, but even the "dates one girl at a time" and "is looking for a soul mate" type of guy has factored this into how he's made his personality. Essentially, the "man's man" is no longer the type of guy who attracts women, so he is obsolete.

So, to summarize, it's disturbing that gender roles are blending because they are shifting towards men being more like women. No man expects a women to be more manly (ugh), but women are able to judge men in the opposite direction. This is, ironically, because history has said that men must pursue women. They must bend to meet the woman's wants (buy them dinner, a movie, talk sweet), but the woman gets to be attractive to men by holding fast to the values woman themselves agree with. In other words, women get to judge men, but men aren't supposed to judge women.

 

[Eldarion]

You may not intend to set women back, but that is what you're doing when you say that they need protected or that men have traits they are built for sociologically that women arent. Or that Women would be less suited for them.

Personally, I dont see anything wrong with it. The "feminization" of men is what is allowing the gay and lesbian culture to make a nice emergence. Its also letting those soft spoken boys who like to write stories and poetry have an easier time. I mean, if you think about it, if you took Charles Dickens, or Edgar Allen Poe, or William Shakespeare and put them into today's culture where muscle headed dumbshits are the ideal manly image in America, we wouldnt have the stories and poems that we do now (whether you like them or not).

Its also allowing the arts to come back and let men be apart of it. things like Fencing, track running, and other such sports that require a man to be lithe, lean and sleek arent being laughed as as much in comparison to the burly 300+ pound football player.

I'm slightly puzzled here at what point have Charles Dickens, or Edgar Allen Poe, or William Shakespeare been considered feminine.
Also at what point have men been ostrasised from the arts or the Arts themselves be sidelined
When did people poke derision at Usain bolt
Which period of recent history lacked poetry or the writing of novels

Back when those minds where young they didn't live in a culture that has jocks bullying the small poet boys. Not being a macho guy wasn't looked down on as much then as it is now.

Men have ALWAYS been called upon to be the protectors of women and children.

Thats because people in most societies could not accept the idea of a female being the strong protective one.

Its 2011 now, things have changed.