Anyone else bothered by the increased blurring of gender roles?

[Dr Snakeman]

Many traditionally male roles and traits are no longer celebrated or instilled in today's youth. In my opinion, pop culture has largely contributed to the feminizing of men and boys. For example, one thing that particularly bothers me is how popular it is on TV shows to portray husbands and fathers as bumbling idiots who are easily controlled by their wives and children.

And let's not forget the hypersensitive nanny-state parents that don't let boys be boys. I worked as a camp counselor at my local YMCA with 12-14 year olds, and I have never seen such a group of sissies, hypochondriacs, and whiners. How are these boys going to grow up to be leaders of men and protectors of women?

EDIT: Since people on this forum never seem to read past the OP:

From Post #19: Never once did I suggest or condone a return to a time of women being "barefoot and pregnant" in the kitchen while the manly men went out to hunt bears. I like that women work and men have shared responsibility with children. I don't think the father/husband should hold a dictatorship over his household and beat his wife and kids.

But I do think that men and women have certain innate traits that make them better suited for different things. When I'm feeling sad and I need a sympathetic ear, I call my mother or a female friend, because women are generally better at empathy. And every girlfriend I've ever had enjoyed feeling safe in my presence, even if pragmatically there isn't much danger a cop couldn't protect her from. But boys and male teens today are increasingly turning into overly sensitive delicate flowers

First of all, I want to congratulate you. This kind of opinion is not usually very well recieved on sites like this, and it takes some stones to voice it. I mean, say something like this on a Troper Tales page, and you'd be torn apart as a filthy misogynist.

And yeah, I am. I mean, people should be allowed to be whatever they want, not just confined to what other people think they "should" do. Still, denying the essential differences between men and women is just stupid. Our society tends to do just that, and it's irritating. I find it ironic that, in an age when we are so concerned with diversity, we ignore the most basic of differences between humans: the difference between men and women. I read sometihing once that said something to the effect of "I guarantee you that an African man, a Chinese man, and a German man all have more in common than a man and a woman".

Why does modern society have such an obsession with embracing our differences, yet deny that men and women are inherently different? We are equal, but not the same. Why haven't we accepted that yet?

So, yeah, that's my take on it.

 

[binvjoh]

Blurring the social roles served by gender is a good thing. It makes us look at people more like individuals than some sort of archetypes.

Also, on a less serious note; strong women are fucking sexy.

 

[Brawndo]

How are these boys going to group up to be leaders of men and protectors of women?

Well, not, obviously. And women don't need men to protect them.

Really? Because I have many personal anecdotes with female friends, my mother, girlfriends, and even random female strangers that suggest otherwise. Despite what lemon-scented crunchy-granola liberals like to scream about in their podcasts, men protecting women is not misogynistic at all.

Oh, damn. This always confuses me because the word 'liberal' has so many definitions...

Are you an American Republican?

If I had them, I'd gamble a thousand dollars that he is.

lol that would be a very bad bet. I don't associate myself with established political parties at all. I have my own views that do not follow the party line of some group. There are things I am liberal about and there are things I am conservative about, and most importantly, I am able to entertain other viewpoints that I may not agree with, unlike most people on this forum.

 

[Professor James]

There's been a thread here recently about someone wishing to join the army and he's been discouraged and frowned upon by almost everyone in his vicinity.

Can you maybe provide a link?

 

[purpleflamingo]

I get what your saying, but I for one am not concerned.

Although you get some women who are stronger and more independent than some men, who are the bread-winner of the family,etc. and you get some stay at home dads who like to cook and are in touch with their emotions, etc... Those gender roles of the past came about for a reason. Its because in general, women are suited to certain things better than men, and men are suited to certain things better than women. Thats basically the entire concept of marriage; so that a man and a woman can combine their strengths and eliminate their weaknesses together. How many husbands rely on their wives to remember where they put their keys, or that its such-and-such's birthday in a few days, or to raise their children? And how many wives rely on their husbands to bring the money into the family, discipline the kids and do the 'handy-man' jobs around the house? The answer is 'alot' not to be confused with 'almost all' from years gone by.

My point is that these roles in the family are not set in stone. Just because that works for the average man and woman doesn't mean that it works for all. plenty of men and women make-do just fine on their own. I know a few families that completely switch those roles around (my sister and her husband for one).

And I know that I've mainly talked about marriage between a man and a wife and its not representative of the world's population any more and blah, blah, blah...

Summary:
Men as a whole are better than women at some things, and women as a whole are better than men at some things. But to individuals, that means nothing. If the 'man' of the house happens to be the wife, and it works for that family, then why not?

PS What I am concerned with is the EXTREMIST schovanist (spelling?) males and feminists that want ALL women to be either completely independent or completely subservient. Let the roles fall where they may.

 

[jamesworkshop]

You may not intend to set women back, but that is what you're doing when you say that they need protected or that men have traits they are built for sociologically that women arent. Or that Women would be less suited for them.

Personally, I dont see anything wrong with it. The "feminization" of men is what is allowing the gay and lesbian culture to make a nice emergence. Its also letting those soft spoken boys who like to write stories and poetry have an easier time. I mean, if you think about it, if you took Charles Dickens, or Edgar Allen Poe, or William Shakespeare and put them into today's culture where muscle headed dumbshits are the ideal manly image in America, we wouldnt have the stories and poems that we do now (whether you like them or not).

Its also allowing the arts to come back and let men be apart of it. things like Fencing, track running, and other such sports that require a man to be lithe, lean and sleek arent being laughed as as much in comparison to the burly 300+ pound football player.

I'm slightly puzzled here at what point have Charles Dickens, or Edgar Allen Poe, or William Shakespeare been considered feminine.
Also at what point have men been ostrasised from the arts or the Arts themselves be sidelined
When did people poke derision at Usain bolt
Which period of recent history lacked poetry or the writing of novels

Back when those minds where young they didn't live in a culture that has jocks bullying the small poet boys in school. Not being a macho guy wasn't looked down on as much then as it is now.

Macho is not masculine, it was very common for men of science or learning to be taught boxing and fencing as the primary methods of fitness, The knights of old were warriors trainined on the most brutal battlefields of history and yet they were expected to hold themselves in court, display expert penmanship, be well groomed, knowledgeable of history, eloquently spoken.
I see little to uphold this seemingly modern interpretation for the subsitution or incongruence of a strong arm for a learned mind, intelligence and logical reasoning have always been conerstones of masculinity

 

[Eldarion]

How are these boys going to group up to be leaders of men and protectors of women?

Well, not, obviously. And women don't need men to protect them.

Really? Because I have many personal anecdotes with female friends, my mother, girlfriends, and even random female strangers that suggest otherwise. Despite what lemon-scented crunchy-granola liberals like to scream about in their podcasts, men protecting women is not misogynistic at all.

A Masculine person protecting a feminine person isn't misogynistic. The traits and genders are not mutually dependent.

 

[garfoldsomeoneelse]

Speaking as a man who was raised by a construction worker that not only taught him a plethora of useful skills, but also how to function within a fully-masculine mindset, it doesn't bother me. Guys like me are actually prized within my circles of friends, since we're apparently in high demand. I'm talking about a guy who drives a pickup, knows how to do residential/mechanical maintenance, can help you move every last possession you own into a new home, is able to utilize every common tool in your utility closet and improvise in their absence, and provide pragmatic solutions to solvable problems... all while looking manly as hell, thereby vastly improving the chances that they won't be fucked with while I'm around. Just because everyone else chooses to go another way doesn't mean that the inherent value of men like myself has been diminished at all; rather, it has been increased, and being the guy that shows up to help others with masculine tasks that society didn't pressure them into training for is a damned good way to forge very strong friendships.

And for the record, a man who has his emotions dialed in is not "feminized", he's self-aware. That guy at the gym that bench-presses trucks and displays an emotional range from "angry" to "horny" and nothing else? He doesn't have a hyper-masculine advantage of having fewer emotions, he just chooses to lock himself in a mindset that makes him more likely to get his way by means of intimidation by perceiving everything as an insult, like a third-grade bully (read: child). I'd posit that a that man chooses to be openly sad, happy, or hurt in front of others, as opposed to remaining stoic all the time, is actually more courageous for his lack of anxiety regarding the judgment of others. Ever notice how an archetypal toughguy only opens up around people he trusts, like life-long friends? It's because he's too afraid of being negatively evaluated by everyone else, so, ironically, he's the bigger pussy.

EDIT: And the flipside of the equation, I find women that are independent and useful in practical applications to be twice as attractive as they would be if they only stood on the merits of their looks.

 

[FarleShadow]

I am mostly bothered by the 'Equal rights' stuff that most people espouse, here's why:

Equal rights means EQUAL. RIGHTS. Not 'lol I'm a woman so I deserve to get paid the same as the menfolk, yet immediately complain the moment I'm expected to do the SAME work as the men.'

I remember one article about doctoring in a magazine I read where the woman (A supposedly 'feminist' writer) complained that hospitals were sexist because they expected women to be /the same as men/. As in, they pretended everyone was equal. And then expected everyone to work equal hours for equal pay. And then she went on to complain that 'Women were not 'replacement men' and needed to be treated as women'....so essentially, special treatment for wo...haha, yes!

The other thing that bothers me is the idea that equal pay is ok, but if a woman decides/gets pregnant in the UK, the employer is supposed to keep their job for a year AND give them money. Essentially this means you fund a woman to care for their spawn (At a reduced rate than normal wages, but still) AND you can't replace the lost worker. For a big business, this isn't really a problem, but if your staff can be counted on a single hand, its a MASSIVE problem AND YOU CAN'T DO SHIT ABOUT IT AS AN EMPLOYER.

I always figured that was the reason women got paid less than men doing the same jobs, the company was just saving money incase they decide to get pregnant and disappear.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate women, I just hate the fact that we MUST have equal rights, but when its time to eat shit-waffles, our laws and such allow women to say 'lol no thanks' but still recieve the same money as the shit-waffle eater men.

 

[somonels]

Blurring gender roles? Do we need to have the birds and the bees talk? Man makes it grow, woman plops it out and then things become difficult.

Those are the only gender roles, everything else is just fluff.

 

[Exterminas]

I am sorry to say this but gender roles are something completly arbitrary. Want proof?

Name one thing that men can do better/different than women and that has any relevance in today's world.

Physical strenght, right. But is this relevant for us?
Nope.

In this world of gunpowder and tasers, this lone attribute becomes meaningless. A woman can drive a tank just as well as any man.

So. Are gender roles starting to fade? Yes.
Is this a bad thing? Depends on your point of view.
Are gender roles something necessary? Probably not.

Builder, Fitter, Mechanic etc?

There are plenty of jobs that need a degree of physical strength.
Yes women could do them, but the strength required comes more easily to males as we are genetically designed to be stronger.

While this is true none of these jobs have a high reputation or are very popular. Cpitalist world works against gender roles by emphazing the importance of money. Mechanics don't earn more than programmers = value of strenght fades.

 

[Dags90]

Not at all. If people were strongly biologically inclined to behave this way, then it wouldn't be so malleable. Unless you're going to start accusing that the hormones they put in milk are turning boys into girls.

 

[FaceFaceFace]

Well, since women don't need men to protect them anymore let's hope we are never invaded because very few men today were taught to fight. I am sure women can hold their own though against an invading army.

It has been mentioned that masculinity is not needed in todays world. Well, there are still alot of professions that most women don't want. Dangerous and dirty jobs are predominately male. Don't see alot of women mining or working in the sewers. Even in everyday jobs where heavy lifting is required, men are required to the lifting. I have seen more than a few female clerks at Wal Mart call for a man to lift something heavy.

I wonder, would society collapse if men just stopped working, maybe moved to an island and left the running of society to women? After all, masculinity isn't needed in todays world.

Did you miss WWII where all the men left and women worked factories and other male jobs? It worked fine and if all men disappeared it could work fine again.

 

[Eldarion]

You may not intend to set women back, but that is what you're doing when you say that they need protected or that men have traits they are built for sociologically that women arent. Or that Women would be less suited for them.

Personally, I dont see anything wrong with it. The "feminization" of men is what is allowing the gay and lesbian culture to make a nice emergence. Its also letting those soft spoken boys who like to write stories and poetry have an easier time. I mean, if you think about it, if you took Charles Dickens, or Edgar Allen Poe, or William Shakespeare and put them into today's culture where muscle headed dumbshits are the ideal manly image in America, we wouldnt have the stories and poems that we do now (whether you like them or not).

Its also allowing the arts to come back and let men be apart of it. things like Fencing, track running, and other such sports that require a man to be lithe, lean and sleek arent being laughed as as much in comparison to the burly 300+ pound football player.

I'm slightly puzzled here at what point have Charles Dickens, or Edgar Allen Poe, or William Shakespeare been considered feminine.
Also at what point have men been ostrasised from the arts or the Arts themselves be sidelined
When did people poke derision at Usain bolt
Which period of recent history lacked poetry or the writing of novels

Back when those minds where young they didn't live in a culture that has jocks bullying the small poet boys in school. Not being a macho guy wasn't looked down on as much then as it is now.

Macho is not masculine, it was very common for men of science or learning to be taught boxing and fencing as the primary methods of fitness, The knights of old were warriors trainined on the most brutal battlefields of history and yet they were expected to hold themselves in court, display expert penmanship, be well groomed, knowledgeable of history, eloquently spoken.
I see little to uphold this seemingly modern interpretation for the subsitution or incongruence of a strong arm for a learned mind, intelligence and logical reasoning have always been conerstones of masculinity

And the ancient greek ideal male body was muscular but slender, their statues are of svelte but strong men. They where pretty boys, but they where the solders that conquered most of the ancient world.

I know my history too

The intellectuals spoken of by the first poster in our little chain are still soft svelte young men, but they aren't as muscular, not as apt to be bold in the face on confrontation. They aren't at the peak of fighting form, they don't like fighting. My point is that there isn't really anything wrong with that. People should be who they are.

 

[Agayek]

Many traditionally male roles and traits are no longer celebrated or instilled in today's youth. In my opinion, pop culture has largely contributed to the feminizing of men and boys. For example, one thing that particularly bothers me is how popular it is on TV shows to portray husbands and fathers as bumbling idiots who are easily controlled by their wives and children.

And let's not forget the hypersensitive nanny-state parents that don't let boys be boys. I worked as a camp counselor at my local YMCA with 12-14 year olds, and I have never seen such a group of sissies, hypochondriacs, and whiners. How are these boys going to grow up to be leaders of men and protectors of women?

EDIT: Since people on this forum never seem to read past the OP:

From Post #19: Never once did I suggest or condone a return to a time of women being "barefoot and pregnant" in the kitchen while the manly men went out to hunt bears. I like that women work and men have shared responsibility with children. I don't think the father/husband should hold a dictatorship over his household and beat his wife and kids.

But I do think that men and women have certain innate traits that make them better suited for different things. When I'm feeling sad and I need a sympathetic ear, I call my mother or a female friend, because women are generally better at empathy. And every girlfriend I've ever had enjoyed feeling safe in my presence, even if pragmatically there isn't much danger a cop couldn't protect her from. But boys and male teens today are increasingly turning into overly sensitive delicate flowers

I'm not sure if "concerned" is the appropriate term, but I definitely agree with the gist of this. It's becoming increasingly unpopular for a man to act as a man, and that just doesn't sit well with me. I don't really care about the "Gender Roles" per se, but I definitely think we should be teaching male children to be confident, assertive, and protective. It's not so much a gender thing as it is a maturity thing. The way we're going, we'll have whole generations insistent that someone else is at fault for every single problem they've ever had, and who refuse to take any sort of personal responsibility. It's depressing as all hell, and we need to fix that if we're ever going to move forward as a society.

I'd also list out what to teach women, but I still don't understand how they think, so I really can't. I would assume (and these are generalizations based on personal experience and stereotypes) that to reach an appropriate level of maturity, women should generally be taught compassion, empathy, and various other "maternal" aspects. That's just a guess though.

 

[Eldarion]

Well, since women don't need men to protect them anymore let's hope we are never invaded because very few men today were taught to fight. I am sure women can hold their own though against an invading army.

It has been mentioned that masculinity is not needed in todays world. Well, there are still alot of professions that most women don't want. Dangerous and dirty jobs are predominately male. Don't see alot of women mining or working in the sewers. Even in everyday jobs where heavy lifting is required, men are required to the lifting. I have seen more than a few female clerks at Wal Mart call for a man to lift something heavy.

I wonder, would society collapse if men just stopped working, maybe moved to an island and left the running of society to women? After all, masculinity isn't needed in todays world.

This only makes sense if masculinity and feminine behavior is exclusive to men or women. It isn't, the women you see asking for a man to lift something aren't incapable of lifting heavy things because they are women, its because they as individuals just happen to not be very strong.

Ah, so it would ok for a weak man to call a strong woman to do the heavy lifting? You know as well as I how socially unacceptable that would be.

So what do you think, if men just moved to an island and left everything to the women to run, how would it go?

It would go fine because men and women are equally capable in society. Masculine and feminine traits develop at the individual level regardless of gender.

I work at wal mart, I can't lift pallets. I usually get a female coworker I work with to get them for me or help me with the heavy loads. No one belittles me about this, because most people have moved on from pre convinced gender notions.

LOL, yeah ok. The double standards are all gone and men and women are treated as if they have the exact same strengths and weaknesses. I have never seen that world.

You blind? Cause I'm finding it very hard to believe you.