Anyone else bothered by the increased blurring of gender roles?

[Diligent]

You are right about boys growing up to be wimps. Too often parents will see play fighting as actual fighting and break it up, and teach that it's wrong to do that. There is strong evidence that playfighting is a necessary part of social development, and to halt it leaves pent up aggression and weaker social bonds. Being coddled is not good for young boys and the motherly idea that your little munchkin has to be a "nice boy" is - to put it bluntly - wrong.

 

[Eldarion]

Well, since women don't need men to protect them anymore let's hope we are never invaded because very few men today were taught to fight. I am sure women can hold their own though against an invading army.

It has been mentioned that masculinity is not needed in todays world. Well, there are still alot of professions that most women don't want. Dangerous and dirty jobs are predominately male. Don't see alot of women mining or working in the sewers. Even in everyday jobs where heavy lifting is required, men are required to the lifting. I have seen more than a few female clerks at Wal Mart call for a man to lift something heavy.

I wonder, would society collapse if men just stopped working, maybe moved to an island and left the running of society to women? After all, masculinity isn't needed in todays world.

This only makes sense if masculinity and feminine behavior is exclusive to men or women. It isn't, the women you see asking for a man to lift something aren't incapable of lifting heavy things because they are women, its because they as individuals just happen to not be very strong.

Ah, so it would ok for a weak man to call a strong woman to do the heavy lifting? You know as well as I how socially unacceptable that would be.

So what do you think, if men just moved to an island and left everything to the women to run, how would it go?

It would go fine because men and women are equally capable in society. Masculine and feminine traits develop at the individual level regardless of gender.

I work at wal mart, I can't lift pallets. I usually get a female coworker I work with to get them for me or help me with the heavy loads. No one belittles me about this, because most people have moved on from pre convinced gender notions.

LOL, yeah ok. The double standards are all gone and men and women are treated as if they have the exact same strengths and weaknesses. I have never seen that world.

You blind? Cause I'm finding it very hard to believe you.

No I am not blind there are loads of double standards in regards to this topic. Heavy lifting just being one of them. Did you know that men still have to register for the draft but women do not? Is that a double standard or am I blind?

Men are still tied to the porvider/protector gender role while women were freed from theirs. Ever talked to stay at home dads about how they are treated?

Are you going on about how its not fair to some of these double standards to exist? Or do you still think that only men can display masculine traits and that women need you to do the "men work". Cause I've already explained that masculine traits are not exclusive to men and vise versa.

Just cause some unfair double standards exist does not make them right, but I'm a compassionate sensitive male and most everyone I know has no problem with it.

No one would have a problem with you being a sensitive male (that is what society wants you to be until they need soldiers), if you were a macho male you would be demonized and called immature. However, when a woman needs protecting, your feminine traits won't serve you well.

The double standards exist and they will remain if no one talks about them.

Well its not black and white. Feminine does not mean weak either.

 

[ramboondiea]

yeah i agree with you, i think some lines are okay to blur, but lately this androgynous wave thats seems to be sweeping the youths has me worried,
my worry comes from the idea that if people aint as 'manly' they could face more ridicule, and to say that a man shouldnt need to be a protector is bullshit, plain and simple, where you like it or not, men on average will be stronger then a women (physically) i literally couldnt count all the times iv had to get involved to protect a friend from unwanted advances or violent behaviour of dickheads. so if we have a wave of weaker, more afraid young men, then yeah some women could be in danger

 

[Rachel317]

I kind of agree. I don't think that the redundancy of stereotypical gender roles is necessarily a bad thing in all circumstances, but I hate how we still have these ridiculous ideas.

If a woman is sexually open/aggressive, she's a slut.
If a guy is naturally dominant and protective, he's an egotistical psycho. These traits, that have been around for a while now, are DEFINITELY being blurred. Why can't people just accept other people for who they are, as opposed to which gender roles they fulfil or don't fulfil? Not everyone does it on purpose, most of it is subconscious I know, but I just hate how people (from both genders) cannot act in ANY WAY they want to, due to fear of (possibly subconscious) judgement.

Young boys becoming more effeminate...well, isn't that just the same thing as girls being tomboys? No one cares about that. Just as women can wear a man's boxers and it's "sexy", a guy wears a lace thong and he's "weird". These warped ideals and hypocritical standards that society imposes upon us should be the first things to go.

 

[Radelaide]

The feminist rights groups destroyed gender roles a bit ago.

And than the (3rd wave?) of feminist rolled up, in effect chopping the balls off men and producing what we have now, an age of pansies.

But, for the most part, I enjoy the gender walls coming down. Nothing says I still can't be manly, and if the date goes bad, she can pay for her own damn meal now.

IMO, feminism is redundant these days anyway. The new-age feminists aren't about equal rights, they're about some super race of females who are apparently better then men in every way. I, however, think it's all bullshit. Rights between men and women are probably about as equal as they're going to get. There may be a little more progression, but nothing as radical as when women were allowed to go to work or vote.

As for gender roles: The idea of men being the protector of the family and the bringer of bacon is out-dated. Then again, I was raised in a less than traditional family dynamic since my dad was killed at 4 and my mother essentially had to take on the role of mother and father, plus get herself an education so she could work.

 

[jamesworkshop]

You may not intend to set women back, but that is what you're doing when you say that they need protected or that men have traits they are built for sociologically that women arent. Or that Women would be less suited for them.

Personally, I dont see anything wrong with it. The "feminization" of men is what is allowing the gay and lesbian culture to make a nice emergence. Its also letting those soft spoken boys who like to write stories and poetry have an easier time. I mean, if you think about it, if you took Charles Dickens, or Edgar Allen Poe, or William Shakespeare and put them into today's culture where muscle headed dumbshits are the ideal manly image in America, we wouldnt have the stories and poems that we do now (whether you like them or not).

Its also allowing the arts to come back and let men be apart of it. things like Fencing, track running, and other such sports that require a man to be lithe, lean and sleek arent being laughed as as much in comparison to the burly 300+ pound football player.

I'm slightly puzzled here at what point have Charles Dickens, or Edgar Allen Poe, or William Shakespeare been considered feminine.
Also at what point have men been ostrasised from the arts or the Arts themselves be sidelined
When did people poke derision at Usain bolt
Which period of recent history lacked poetry or the writing of novels

Back when those minds where young they didn't live in a culture that has jocks bullying the small poet boys in school. Not being a macho guy wasn't looked down on as much then as it is now.

Macho is not masculine, it was very common for men of science or learning to be taught boxing and fencing as the primary methods of fitness, The knights of old were warriors trainined on the most brutal battlefields of history and yet they were expected to hold themselves in court, display expert penmanship, be well groomed, knowledgeable of history, eloquently spoken.
I see little to uphold this seemingly modern interpretation for the subsitution or incongruence of a strong arm for a learned mind, intelligence and logical reasoning have always been conerstones of masculinity

And the ancient greek ideal male body was muscular but slender, their statues are of svelte but strong men. They where pretty boys, but they where the solders that conquered most of the ancient world.

I know my history too

The intellectuals spoken of by the first poster in our little chain are still soft svelte young men, but they aren't as muscular, not as apt to be bold in the face on confrontation. They aren't at the peak of fighting form, they don't like fighting. My point is that there isn't really anything wrong with that. People should be who they are.

It's the greek ideal I was refering too, as held by knights and most playwrights, boxing was a greek sport and method of interpersonal combat, they may not be professional soldiers but there was a clear expectation, boxing and fencing were intended especially in shakespears time to be employed with deadly intent under proper circumstances.
They clearly believed that a lack of physical conditioning would weaken the mind.

I must be missing your point then, the original post was about soft spoken sensitive boys of today. How the growing acceptance of feminine traits in men is allowing more of the softer boys to flourish better.

I mean, I agree that the famous minds of literature weren't exactly sissy. Was that your only issue with the above?

Mostly yes, thoses examples clearly do not link as comparisons, if we are taking the essence of masculinity as defined by history (the OP mindframe was a distancing from thoses times)
then despite being at the most brutal point of history with the most male orientated societies, men of understanding flourished since these notions of learned individuals were not incompatible or non overlapping with physical conditioning.


I see no evidence for their world view


On Being Asked for a War Poem

William Butler Yeats (1928)


I think it better that in times like these
A poet?s mouth be silent, for in truth
We have no gift to set a statesman right;
He has had enough of meddling who can please
A young girl in the indolence of her youth,
Or an old man upon a winter?s night.

 

[Agayek]

Why would you not just teach everyone to be confident, assertive and productive as well as to have compassion and empathy?

Cause they are all good traits to have and not exclusive to either gender.

Because, on a fundamental, biological level, the genders are wired differently.

I definitely wouldn't stop someone from teaching the lot to any particular person, but I know that for men to reach a psychologically mature state, they need to learn certain traits, chief among them being confidence and responsibility. Thus, I would stress these traits to male children.

I'm not overly familiar with female mental states (they confuse me enough without delving into the psychology behind it) so I just guessed in that regard. It could be something completely different, but from what I do understand, it is a logical conclusion.

 

[FarleShadow]

The other thing that bothers me is the idea that equal pay is ok, but if a woman decides/gets pregnant in the UK, the employer is supposed to keep their job for a year AND give them money. Essentially this means you fund a woman to care for their spawn (At a reduced rate than normal wages, but still) AND you can't replace the lost worker. For a big business, this isn't really a problem, but if your staff can be counted on a single hand, its a MASSIVE problem AND YOU CAN'T DO SHIT ABOUT IT AS AN EMPLOYER.

What, maternity leave? Men get paternity leave too, it's just a few months shorter. Does that mean employers should just cut wages across the board for everyone that's not sterile, then? That's a silly reason as to why anyone should be paid less.

Actually, men in the UK can now take ten month paternity leave AS WELL as the women (Assuming both are working at the same business, they can both do it at the same time if it suits them).

I'm not saying women should be paid less, in this context anyway, its the sheer stupidity that a couple CAN get pregnant, then not turn up for work for ten months AND STILL GET PAID by the (obviously pissed off at this point) employer who also cannot hire someone new on anything more than a temporary basis.

Now that you've mentioned it, how is it fair to a sterile woman to get the same wage as another women who can literally disappear for months because her babymaker is on?

 

[Svenparty]

I like to imagine a thickly mustached grumpy man hunched over his "Word wide web" grumbling at all the Escapist geeks/nerds/whatever and their cooking/transexual/girl problems and deciding to join just to post this rubbish.

I'm glad sports culture and all the MAN bullshit is being replaced and I hope that everyone takes up mincing and sharing emotions

 

[FatherSpleen]

Not at all. I'm glad that people are moving away from pointless things like gender roles and widespread stereotypes, and are moving towards acceptance of everyone. People should be able to live how they want to, regardless of how "tradition" has dictated.

 

[Brian Hendershot]

I would just like to point out that our traditional ideas of gender roles sometimes are different other traditional gender roles. In some countries, women do the work, and the men stay home, ect. For example, the Kahari Bush Men ( I think I spelled that right) were ruled by a matriarch. In some African/East Asian.Native American cultures women did all the grunt work and men stayed home to tend to the family.

And that's not even getting into cultures that embraced, respected, and often promoted homosexuality or trans gender people.

Seriously, gender roles don't really matter.

That's all I have to say.

 

[Brawndo]

I'm glad sports culture and all the MAN bullshit is being replaced and I hope that everyone takes up mincing and sharing emotions

lol I don't want to take this bait, however tempting it is.

 

[BlindChance]

No, I'm not.

Look, there's two possibilities.

One: Gender roles are inherent and important. They're based in major human psycho-chemical elements and biology. If this is the case, then we'll never successfully overturn them anyway, so frankly, why worry? This is an unusually tough attempt made by society to overcome biology, but we will fail and correct, important gender roles will resume.

Two: Gender roles are mostly socially constructed. And if that's the case, then good riddance to the traditional gender roles and their misogynistic ridiculousness. Whatever creates more equality and liberty is best.

 

[Jaded Scribe]

But, on the flip side, how do you know that it was your "feminine" upbringing that fucked with your head, and not something else, whether inherent in your biology or your experiences?

I've been analyzing this a lot. Some actions clearly lead to particular results.

If one of my boys was overtaken with a burning desire to cut lumber, fine. All I ask is that he get a college degree first (in what field, I don't care). And I expect that regardless if they want to be a musician, an artist, or whatever. It provides a backup.

As a sidenote, I don't have a degree and I'm fine without it. It's just my way of doing things: I always learn on the fly. I'm completely incapable of learning by reading books and memorizing. BTW that's one thing that women around me never understood: they thought good grades = success in the future, which is crap.

In general, university education is way overrated today. Heavy studies made sense in the middle ages, when most people didn't even know how to read. Today, all the information is available online for anyone to learn. So unless one wants to become a doctor, a nuclear physicist or something else demanding, a degree is usually just a piece of paper saying 'this dude has sat through several years of listening to some claptrap'. Take computer science for example - I personally know hundreds of great programmers, IT technicians etc. and not a single one has studies this stuff. One guy that did, is an artist. Go figure.

While this has little to do with gender issues, forced education is... Just not good. Also, I'm a strong opponent of teaching children by forcing them to sit tight for several hours a day, memorizing stuff. People should find their ways to contribute to the society. Children should be raised that way too. And I know I'm an idealist.

They lose nothing by being raised to be in touch with their feelings. That it's ok to cry if they are upset (with some caveats about the appropriate time and place), that they should be attentive to the feelings of others, and encouraging empathy and a nurturing attitude.

Nothing bad with knowing ones feelings, it's how we deal with them. For example, there's a huge difference why and how women and men cry: crying helps women to cope with issues, i.e. actually makes them stronger. It doesn't work the same way for men. Men tend not to cry unless they're completely exhausted. Overriding this behavior (in either gender) by encouraging the other policy can be very disruptive. That's just a tiny example of very complex problems. There are millions of such small issues, which the other gender usually doesn't understand well.

But at the same time, they run, jump, play, fight with each other, and enjoy all the traditionalist things a boy is expected to enjoy.

I guess your boys manage just fine. That's good.

What we can see around us, are often atrocious examples.

University education is not overrated. I am very glad that you are lucky enough to earn a living without one. As for your programming friends, they are very much in the minority these days, and likely started in the late 80s/early 90s when if you could find the 'K' on your keyboard, you were hired, and the ability to write the most basic "Hello, World" program got you a solid salary.

That is absolutely not the case anymore. If you're trying to get a job that makes a living salary, you won't even be considered unless you have a college degree (with very few industries as an exception. Most have a definite cap as to how far you can go, and very few will ever be able to exceed that). It has been proven by study after study after study that college graduates will (potentially, it is up to the individual to capitalize on their knowledge) make more money over the course of their lifetime (i.e. millions more, not chump change).

And "men only cry when they're exhausted" is a load of bullshit. That is not how men are wired biologically, it's how society has wired them. I know a number of men that have cried when their girlfriends broke up with them, or even when their significant other simply said hurtful things.

The atrocious little brats that we see running around today are not a result of parents blurring gender roles. It's because parents don't want to be bothered raising their kids. They'd rather give in and buy them what they want, and give in on everything than deal with a temper tantrum.

You're pinning your position on opinions, rather than what the facts point to.

 

[Togs]

Traditional masculine traits are outdated in the modern environment, this is not the fault of modernisation but a fault in our perceptions- we desperately cling to these outmoded stereotypes- what our gender needs is to figure out how to adapt and redefine to suit the modern era, a process which will not be easy and one which goes against our very natures, but one which is vital.

OP your living in the past and are a symptom of the disease, "tradition" is something that as a higher species we should learn to ascend past- shouting from the roof tops about decrying our fledgling attempts at this redefinition is the epitome of the luddite caveman of yesteryear.

But you do have my agreement in that these initial steps are proving unsuccessful, and I sit here racking my brains as to solutions to this Everest of impediments, as Im sure many other young men do- but know that we will triumph, it is inevitable.