So....men who complain about anything have a victim complex while women who complain about everything don't have a victim complex. Sounds like a double standard to me. It's interesting how the people who claim to want equality don't want actual equality. They think we (men, usually white) should be paying off an old debt for an undetermined number of years to come.Lil devils x said:
Apparently Riot has some problem with women: nasty behind-the-scenes stuff
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I?m already replied to you with a post on why I don?t take your ?what about men? line of reasoning seriously. Reply to that.Mothro said:
The people who feel uncomfortable working in the industry around this? I know this doesn?t bother you, but you seem to be an outlier in the LGBT community on that issue.The Lunatic said:
I did not comment on anyone having "victim complex", so please do not make assumptions on my perspective on that. I do not apply terms such as that to broad categories, but instead I view people as individuals and individual circumstances. I do not see that men are paying off an old debt, instead I am seeing that we are in a period of time where they are progressing towards improving the workplace and are still receiving push back as is expected. There is not or was never about an " old debt" it is about the ever changing current environment as improvements are being implemented.Mothro said:
So, companies should be forced to adopt a culture which is agreeable to specific groups of people?Saelune said:
It's a private company. It's none of my business what they do, and neither is it any of yours. Your own verdict of what's "Better" and what isn't is completely worthless in this situation, it's not your company to control, nor your culture to influence.
I wouldn't feel comfortable working in San Fransico as an LGBT person, where's my outcry?erttheking said:
Does everyone get an outcry? Nobody I know within the LGBT community cares about these kinds of things. I mean, hell, even in my social groups we use "Homophobic slurs" all the time, and we're a mix of homosexuals and straight people. So, who knows, maybe we're all outliers.
Are you turning this into a ?I?m not complaining about this so no one should? thing? Don?t do that. I know quite a few LGBT people who would livid over this. The LGBT community in general seems to be against this kinda shit. And if you want an outcry, well, go ahead and make one. Anyone who feels wronged can make one. I did it in this thread.The Lunatic said:
Also what you said among a group of friends is different from what you say in the job. Like night and day different.
I don?t think someone whose ducking my post about men?s problems but still wants to pretend he?s championing me has much right to complain.Mothro said:
Because it is not beneficial in any way to assign broad terms to either men or women as a whole and only serves to distract from the actual issues of how and why these things are the way they are and what can be done to correct them. It is of no benefit to society to claim " men do this" or "women do this" when in reality people do things due to individual reasons and circumstance and should be addressed as such.Mothro said:
Your post was also about workplace environment and design, including Air conditioning issues and that should not be brushed off as insignificant when it actually can have a serious impact on the work environment, their health and ones ability to compete and be productive.
..and yet that is what we see all the time. That men do this to women and that women are oppressed. No one ever says 'don't generalize' until a man speaks up for himself.Lil devils x said:
Not some women, but women in general. Not some men but every man in the company.
Again with the " no one ever..". That is simply not true. "Men" speak up for himself?" Again assuming that "Men" all want the same things or have the same perspective. They do not, as has already been established in this very thread by men who have expressed they do not want to have to deal with this toxicity in their workplace. When you start saying things like "men" have a victim complex, you will have to give specific examples and sources for this to actually apply, you did not do that, you are just generalizing large swaths of the population that this may or may not apply to. Yes, there are valid issues that should be addressed impacting men, but yes, there are also people whose purpose is not to actually address and resolve men's issues but instead only wish to discuss them, not improve them in order to attempt to make Women's issues appear to be less significant. There is a huge difference between the two.Mothro said:
For example, when "The Rock" was discussing Toxic masculinity and how it has impacted him directly, he was doing so to actually solve the problem and change society for the better.
( here: https://www.askmen.com/news/sports/the-rock-talks-mental-health-and-toxic-masculinity.html )
But then on the other hand, you had those guys who were complaining they couldn't stay at the women's shelter when they called the Domestic violence hotline, but failed to mention they offered to pay for him to stay in a hotel instead( better accommodations than the women receive) in an attempt to claim it is not fair he couldn't stay in the women's shelter. Yea, that whole fiasco was beyond absurd. They were attempting to attack " feminists" but wound up making them look even better than thought before. There are some things that such terms may apply, but to generalize and miscategorize like they are all the same thing is intentionally misrepresenting the reality of the situation.
( That event was actually linked and discussed on these forums a couple of years ago, but I am not digging through the forums again to try and find it)
Companies should not be abusive and terrible to its employees or anyone else! If you really do not care as you say, then why are you so bothered by us imposing our views on a company that you are not part of? If it 'doesnt affect you' then why are you opposing it?The Lunatic said:
We are quickly becoming a society where everyone has to walk on eggshells with everything they do, say, and even think. Or someone will feel oppressed, threatened, or abused by them. It is not how people function, and it is not how we move forward. But because society seems to be rewarding people who can feel the most abused, the most "victimized" then we will continue to be in this cycle until what happens is that nobody hires anyone who disagrees with them, no one is friends with anyone who could have a different view of the world, and we all form these terrible communal bubbles were we hang out as like-minds so that we can't possibly hurt other's with words and thoughts.
You?re doing the thing where you don?t respond to arguments and just restate your points? Don?t expect me to reply to your new points if you couldn?t be bothered to reply to my old ones then.Commanderfantasy said:
I don't expect you to reply to me at all. In fact I prefer you didn't, and save your offense for points that actually matter.erttheking said:
No. I'm saying that LGB people are individuals, not to be weaponized against whatever the latest outrage is. We're not just some bloc you get to deploy whenever somebody does something you don't agree with.erttheking said:
And if you can't give me, an LGB person a reason to care what goes on in the private doings of a private company, you don't really get to swing that around so easily.
I do not view myself as walking on eggshells with what I say, think or do because I do not think say or do horrible things to or about other people. Expecting people to treat others with respect is not " walking on eggshells" it is what should be expected for a society to be able to function. One's rights end where another's begins and treating other people like shat should not be considered more valuable by society than ones right to not want to have that imposed upon them.Commanderfantasy said:
It is how people function, and it is how people move forward. Society should be rewarding those who make others feel welcomed and treat others with respect, not those who seek to exclude and abuse. It is not beneficial to society in any way to encourage abuse and toxic behavior. It is however, extremely beneficial for people to work together helping one another to increase productivity to advance society and the sooner we eliminate unnecessary toxic environments the sooner people can focus on productivity instead. people can have disagreements, and discussions with many different viewpoints without being sexist, racist or xenophobic, it is the toxicity that stifles discussion, and no being welcoming and respectful of others does not in any way stifle creative or divergent thinking, in fact without the toxicity, it allows for creativity to flourish as people are not hindered by worry about being viewed as being less than equal when presenting ideas.
What I say with my friends should be our business and if you eavesdrop and hear something you don't like, then that is your fucking problem not ours. It has nothing to do with treating others with respect because I am not talking about blatant shit talking here.Lil devils x said:
I would argue here that this all-inclusive society you describe would only result in a worse and weaker society. Growing up I was bullied a lot, lunch money, insults, slugged, the whole deal. But I grew strong because of it, I went to gym, I starting bettering myself and I believe that my experiences growing up made me a stronger person. Now people are so cottled, and constantly wrapped in blankets and give participation trophies for merely wiping their asses, that you are now getting these overly sensitive crybabies who can't handle any sort of interpersonal conflict with dignity. Instead they whine and they cry about how offended they are about everything.Lil devils x said:
I mean come on, that article was about a woman who couldn't handle Air Conditioning? I mean really, bring a fucking sweater! Why does every one else have to melt because you cant handle shit? The A/C was oppressive? Yet the fact that the media treats these stories seriously, give people the courage to try and be more outrageous with what offends them. Where then does it stop? Where is the line of reason? When does the comfort of one person at the cost of everyone else, mean that one person has to simply suck it up?
I just don't get it.
Look the sexual behavior and comments, if they are in fact happening at Riot and these articles aren't just fabrications for attention, are not something I would stand by either. But the other stuff, where the guys are just joking with each other using swears and insulting words by means of affection, is just what guys do. My friends and I call each other bitches, cocksucker, etc all the time, it is a very guy thing. Sure not EVERY guy group does that, but not every group of guys are as cool as mine so I dunno what to tell you.
It's a workplace. There are expectations of professionalism and courtesy, if the workplace is going to be a worthwhile place to be.Commanderfantasy said:
If a group of friends wants to talk shit at eachother, they can go ahead-- groups of friends can do so when they know eachother well enough, and are in an informal setting. That doesn't mean that the same behaviour can be replicated anywhere, with anyone, and not be alienating or unpleasant.
It's basic workplace decorum. That's literally all it is.
This whole "school of hard knocks" philosophy is absolute bunkum. It's a surefire way to create a restrictive society, in which people are forced to conform to a specific image of what they should be. Cue self-repression, anxiousness, unresolved anger, and an inability to open up, coupled with an inordinate focus on physical strength above intellect and emotional maturity.Commanderfantasy said:
Sure, some people might strive-- others will not, through no fault of their own. We do not live in this ridiculous hunter-gatherer society in which we all must be physically mega-strong and stoic. That's an anachronism.
There's a difference between walking on eggshells and not sexually harassing people. Yeah walking around head to the ground never saying anything for fear of offending the person who doesn't like words is too much. But walking around openly telling women they're on your short list of women to fuck, and ranking the women in the office by who is most fuckable and farting on people's faces shouldn't be tolerated.Commanderfantasy said:
I've worked in offices where even talking about colleagues being sexy or hot at happy hour on a Friday can get you in trouble with HR on Monday.
Good point. So does Riot not have an HR? Are these women just content to sit and be sad? When they are told these comments, get dirty images in their inbox, all of these things that could very well be reported to an HR of some kind....why did that not happen? Again employees are protected from reporting issues. Especially HR reports that can be given anonymously, so why did they never do that? Could it be that these articles are bullshit?Silentpony said:
The way these things are described, they are crimes. Yet nobody reports them...hmm....curious. I don't care how afraid for a job someone is, you'd still report crimes. Or at least someone who isn't as afraid would report them. I mean somebody there had to have the guts to report this? Yet nobody stepped up? Instead they chose to write blogs, or contribute to random kotaku articles?
It all just smells like bogus.