Are Humans Inherently Selfish?

[2xDouble]

Yes. Consider this: doing what would one considers a "good deed" feels emotionally satisfying, regardless of the circumstances or contexts. (Why? who knows? you didn't ask why) Would humans still do "good" and behave in a "civilized" manner if this were not the case? Studies of pathological individuals (aka. watching crime dramas on TV) would indicate that no, they would not. I admit I could be wrong, but it's an interesting thought.

 

[Meggiepants]

Yes, I believe humans are inherently selfish. I believe people are born selfish and that they need to learn to behave otherwise. Thus you can have individuals that are not inherently selfish.

But I think it takes a great deal of work to get to that point. I don't think it is easy, because it goes against our nature, but I do think it can be done. I just don't think many people have managed it. Though I do think you can have varying degrees of success in your search for selflessness.

 

[Project_Omega]

My cookie! No one can have MY cookie!!!

 

[Scobie]

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[MetalDooley]

You only have to look at young kids to see that yes we are inherently selfish.To kids everything is "mine",sharing is an alien concept.Kids freak out if you takes something off them or don't give them something they want.It's only as we grow older that we're conditioned by society to believe this behaviour is unacceptable but I believe it's something that always stays with us at some level

 

[The DSM]

I think so.

I know I am.

I got [insert what ever here], why should I give it to you?

 

[mcgroobber]

yes, we are inherently greedy to get what we can for ourselves, and disregard others

 

[SadakoMoose]

I'd recommend "The Trap" by Adam Curtis.

 

[Booze Zombie]

We'd be poor survivors if we couldn't look after ourselves and work in groups.

 

[SnipErlite]

Is everything we do, in one way or another, to benifit ourselves?

Probably.

In fact there is something to that, I've found myself questioning whether some of the things I do to be nice to people purely because it'll elevate me in their eyes.

As far as I knew I'm the only person who thinks about myself in that way, but it's an interesting theory pie [sub]can I call you pie?[/sub]. I suppose it might be our classic nature, although anyone who does something really kind but anonymous, well I dunno if you can call that selfish (since nobody will know about it) - However, if they do it for the sense of self-satisfaction is that selfish? Hmmm......

 

[internetzealot1]

Yes. That's why natural selection works.

 

[Kurokami]

You can find a selfish and selfless reason for every action, but only the individual who took the course of action will truly know which reason they used to decide. I'm a fairly selfless person, but I'll never convince those who don't want to believe it, which is good because I really don't care to.

Give an example, while I don't know you I believe my reasoning leaves no gaps for any premeditated act. Why do people always think selfishness is such a horrible thing?

I was sitting in a nearly full lecture room and two girls who were friends could not find a place to sit as there were only single seats available and as a result sat on the stairs of the lecture hall. Because I noticed this I told the guy next to me to move over a seat (as stated before, there were few single seats available) and moved over to look for another place to sit, letting them both sit together. You can talk all you want about how insignificant a gesture it is, but its because of its insignificance that it becomes somewhat meaningful. I had no obligation to move chairs, it wasn't expected of me either and it put me at quite an awkward (for me) position. I did it to validate my own logic and empathy. There was no reason for them to be chairless when there were chairs to be had and I knew I wouldn't enjoy that position.

Well, self-interest and selfishness are two different things. The key difference in selfishness is making others pay a price for your own gain, to me. I see your example as an act of self-interest, because there wasn't really any significant price paid but it was still a good act.

So you're saying that self-interest, which is what I would call any act, is not selfish. It doesn't count as selfless either though, so at that point can't I claim that 'selflessness' does not exist?

 

[Kurokami]

Is everything we do, in one way or another, to benifit ourselves?

Probably.

In fact there is something to that, I've found myself questioning whether some of the things I do to be nice to people purely because it'll elevate me in their eyes.

As far as I knew I'm the only person who thinks about myself in that way, but it's an interesting theory pie [sub]can I call you pie?[/sub]. I suppose it might be our classic nature, although anyone who does something really kind but anonymous, well I dunno if you can call that selfish (since nobody will know about it) - However, if they do it for the sense of self-satisfaction is that selfish? Hmmm......

Talking about your 'I'm the only person who thinks that way' point, it gets irritating sometimes because when I explain it to people they all of a sudden form an imaginary pedestal to rise onto. Its ironic isn't it? That those less honest, or self deceiving can simply deny this and instantly assume you're a worse person than them. Instead of seeing a different standard they just assume you to be selfish overall.

 

[Arrers]

I never really bought the idea that humans are "inherently" anything let alone that they're inherently selfish. The Selfish thing in paticular that has one flaw that no one ever seem to take into account; if humans are so selfish why did they start talking to each other and form societies?
If you ask me Human being have the capacity for both selfishness and selflessness. It's a cop-out I know, but people are both social animals and creatures withperosnal needs and desires.

I also think that a lot of selfishness is a product of our society. It is very competitve one, and it encourages use to be greedy. I mean everyone want's to be rich don't they?

I remember learning in Sociology class that humans are inherently selfish but only so they can be better off. It makes me think if selfishness is the original sin the church preaches.

Well that's one School of thought, but there are other Sociologists that say the exact opposite. That's kind of how sociology works. I think it's very dominated by differing perspectives.

 

[SnipErlite]

Talking about your 'I'm the only person who thinks that way' point, it gets irritating sometimes because when I explain it to people they all of a sudden form an imaginary pedestal to rise onto. Its ironic isn't it? That those less honest, or self deceiving can simply deny this and instantly assume you're a worse person than them. Instead of seeing a different standard they just assume you to be selfish overall.

I thought that was a crack at me before I read your entire post

Yeah, people don't want to think of themselves badly. That's understandable though, nobody for example makes a choice they think isn't the right one (I mean in general, almost always they'll have some justification as to why it was the lesser of two evils).

I know I'm not the best guy ever, I have some hypotheses over my own behaviour which suggests I'm quite a nasty bastard. I find myself leaning towards superiority over others occasionally but I try and batter that down, I know I'm no better than most.

I agree.

 

[Oomii]

We'll always be more selfish then selfless. Think about it, if we weren't we would of died off. Think about the cavemen, there are a few hunters in a group that get a kill to feed the others, the others will deny it because the think the hunters deserve it more, no you deserve it more your weaker, if anyone eats at all it would be the weakest one and thus evolution would be survival if the weakest. If one person was selfish he would gladly take the food, survive and have kids, thus we are selfish.

 

[Scobie]

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[Ameatypie]

Replies - Page 2. Sorry, have not looked at this in 12 HOURS and I have to split up my thoughts on the massive number of replies I have!

Call me a saddist, call me a defeatist, but these are just my ramblings.

Actually, you might find it kind of hilarious, but I might call you a certain type of atheistic Satanist [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVeyan_Satanism]. Don't take it the wrong way, it doesn't have anything to do with devil worshipping or anything, it's just a school of thought. Quite an interesting read, I think, especially if you're pondering about selfishness.

I've pondered it myself, and I'm still not sure whether it's a yes or a no.

For example, if I were to give my imaginary girlfriend a gift, do I give it to her to make her happy, or is it because I want to see her happy? Of course in an every day life, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference, but the question is, am I doing it for her, or am I ultimately doing it for myself?

I can't decide.

LOL - your right, I do find it pretty funny however, I by no means believe in that "an eye for an eye" lot.... "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

Quoted to get your attention. A dirty trick, sure, but it's effective.

I think you have a misunderstanding of the concept of selfishness. A person can easily say someone is motivated by greed, but that goes both ways; a person can just as easily say someone is motivated by kindness.

Let's see if we can find a criteriea; a selfish person, by definition, wants things. By that logic (and by personal expirience) I think it's fair to say a selfish person would be hesitant to risk anything themselves. Remember that; hesitant. A selfish person (again, in my expirience) hesitate before they do anything, especially if it involves risking things. They'll do just enough to get something done, maybe not even that much.

That doesn't answer your question, though, does it? Problem is, I don't think I have an answer. I could see both sides of the argument, and I'm not sure which side to take; ideally, humans are compassionate and caring things, but realistically, a lot of bad things happen because someone wants something for the sake of having something.

Apologies Abound

It is a dirty trick you bastard lol just kidding, your all goods, although you got my attention quite effectivly... Hmmmm.... I wonder if its even possible to define human thoughts like this? someone a way back on page 2 where I found this said that some of the things we do are neither selfish or selfless, they just are.... because thats what our instincts tell us to do.

i think if people act on instinct or as a reflex then its not selfish due to the fact you dont really think about it but its a bit harder to say weather an action that is thought out is always selfish or not

yeah, kinda like that.

yes human beings are the most selfish evil creature in the universe

ORLY?

Let's not forget that dolphins are capable and have been noted to gang raping other dolphins and certain types of ducks have been noted doing that as well.

On the subject of those ducks,rape occurs so often that the females have developed vaginal traps to not allow the rapist duck's genes to pass on and the males have corkscrew penises. I'm sure we can all attest as a species that we don't rape so much that we have that.

O lol - I just find the whole concept of a duck or a dolphin getting gang raped hilarious!
--
.......o shits. selfish maybe?

 

[Ameatypie]

Page 3 thoughts. "phew!" really getting into this now. My religious studies teacher, who firmly believes that humans are inherantly selfish, is going to be thrilled when I slam down half a fricken ream of paper on his desk and say "here. some light reading for you on your thoughts".

A selfless act is impossible to anyone bar a sociopathic individual. As any act that helps otheres triggers a reward for doing so.

Is that reward the main incentive for doing as you do though? If not, is that selfish?

Your argument is not an argument, but a non-argument. If it is impossible for a person to be selfless, then it is just as impossible for a person to be selfish. Ideals like that go both ways; you can't say that these people are like this, while these people, who are exactly the same, are not.

I love that... good work! Reminds me of a novel written by a man called Primo Levi. he made an excellent point about happiness; he pretty much says that humans are limited and true happiness is impossible, but that few humans stop to consider the antithesis: that true unhappiness is also impossible because of the very boundries that in fact make true happiness unrealizable.

- snip -

It's what I've been trying to tell my parents for years. Glad I've finally found someone who agrees. I have yet to find a single human act for which selfishness is not at the base (that is to say, not just selfishness for oneself, but also for the collective you belong to. Like having kids, or fighting a war for your country, or making friends. You do it to serve you and yours).
That may seem depressing, but if you look around most people have pretty ok lives. I'm happy with such selfishness.

Thank you for this!

Heh, I am still on the fence as to weather I agree, but your welcome - just thought I would get my thoughts on this stuff out there and see what other people have to say!

Soo...you are trying to convince us that it is pointless to search for answers, because we will never be sure if the ones we arrive at are the real ones? I say we, by the way, not out of some sense of arrogance towards you, but because it seems that most of the people on this thread seem interested in searching regardless of the results. Even the act of searching can reveal answers to questions unasked.

Either way, though, you are correct in that from an objective perspective answers are completely useless. All meaning is meaningless (?) out of context. In this case a human one.

It's not quite pointless, as there is much comfort in at least thinking you know the truth, and it can be thought-provoking to merely search. You can find an answer, you just won't ever be 100% sure it's the truth unless Helios was involved.

By all means, search for an answer, and my contribution was that I'm an inherently selfless person, so I disagree with the OP on that viewpoint.

Can you ever be certain of anything though? You cannot be certain of anything - only relatively certain, simply because we can be so easily deceived by our own senses among other things.

*SNIP* Are humans inherently selfish? Is everything we do, in one way or another, to benifit ourselves?
*SNIP*

Tbh I think its one of those questions thats more about asking the question then finding an answer as their is no true answer, everyone is different and has a different point of view on things.

Your very right. To put it in a metaphor though, its not reading the end of a novel thats really exciting - its getting to that point.

Former IB student here, I'm far from the TOK material now, but I'll try to answer that.

To an extent humans are indeed, inherently selfish, as far as the instinct of self-preservation is concerned. Yet, for better or worse, most of us are bombarded with situations/examples/teachings that altruism is a good thing and we should strive for it, and we have some altruism passed down in our genes too, from the former generations. So people are somewhere between the two extremes, and no human is completely selfish or selfless.

To the OP, your examples are somewhat flawed. Most people love their wife and kids. Even if they don't really love their wife, they'd still tell her they do, since they need her support. It would be stupid to tell her "I loved you in the first 2 years of our marriage but now I only sense feelings on comraderie towards you" even if that's the case for many families, as that would only cause grief to the couple. Not wanting to cause grief to yourself and your closest person is not selfishness. It's basic intelligence, found even in very simple life forms.

And the soldier in the war trench is different from most other people in that, his mind is down to the basic survival instincts, like a hunted animal's. Many soldiers would opt to throw the grenade back, but to me, the act of jumping on the grenade so it causes less harm to your fellow soldiers is pretty much selflessness, not selfishness.

I hope this helps you.

It sheds yet more light on the sitiuation, yes. That you for your input... I think the main flaw with all of these arguments is that anything is justifiable.

Yeah, whatever. You guys should be looking at my threads instead...

hey mate, piss off if you don't have anything to contribute to this one. Please don't post pointless stuff.

For a person to do something completely not selfish these things must be true:

You must not enjoy doing it.
The effects make you feel bad about yourself.
It does not help you in any way.

A truly selfless act would be for example to give all your money to something horrible, lets say the sex toys for pedophiles fund. (assuming you are not a pedophile yourself)

O lol - to stretch it a tad, maybe you get some kind of kick out of doing something that stupid? lol..... So what your really saying here is that we can do unselfish things, its just a real ***** and there are better ways to go about things. Sweet.

I know a psychiatrist who strongly argues that everything we do, even helping people, is selfish. Said example is because of the feel good factor of helping someone.

Survival instinct one could argue

yeah, pretty much. As mentioned in other posts though, is an act still selfish if the predominant reason for committing that act is NOT this 'feel good' factor?

 

[Ameatypie]

Just a simple answer. I would say yes. I've been a human all my life and its one of the definite things I've noticed

O lolz all your life? really? me too!

Yes people are inherenetly selfish. But then again, so are all animals, Its the survival instninct, to make sure that your survival is guaranteed. Why are we nice to people? So they will be nice back. Why do we give to charity? Because it makes us feel good. And why do religious people often do so many good things? To buy a place in whatever afterlife they beleive in.

Anything can be justified... a real flaw in this argument I have here

And why do religious people often do so many good things? To buy a place in whatever afterlife they believe in.

It doesn't work like that for Christians.

how does it work then?

Is everything we do, in one way or another, to benifit ourselves?

Probably.

In fact there is something to that, I've found myself questioning whether some of the things I do to be nice to people purely because it'll elevate me in their eyes.

As far as I knew I'm the only person who thinks about myself in that way, but it's an interesting theory pie [sub]can I call you pie?[/sub]. I suppose it might be our classic nature, although anyone who does something really kind but anonymous, well I dunno if you can call that selfish (since nobody will know about it) - However, if they do it for the sense of self-satisfaction is that selfish? Hmmm......

you ain't the only person who thinks like that mate, not by a long way.... Although sometimes I wonder if I, too, am the only person who thinks in a particular way.

PS: yes, you can call me pie

Yes. That's why natural selection works.

Oho. so you are an evolutionist, hmm? but natural selction pretty much says that organisims have a higher chance of surviving because of their gene and DNA makeup, as opposed to personality traits which are not really trasnfered in DNA.