Are mainstream devs deliberately discouraging women from gaming?

[loc978]

I thought it was funny... I looked at the title and essentially felt "color me intrigued"... because I hadn't seen such. Then I looked at the titles mentioned.

Assassins Creed 3
The Witcher
Kingdoms of Amalur
Risen 2

I haven't even considered playing one of those games. The Witcher quite specifically because of the reputation for childish misogyny (some of the rest of it sounds passable, but I'm not into having an RPG throw sex at me like that), but the others... couldn't stand the game mechanics of the first title, one that screams Generic Fantasy Game #972,875,051... and... a pirate game I haven't heard of. Huh.

I guess I'm a gaming hippie, only paying attention to progressive (or gender-neutral) titles.

 

[MomoElektra]

Why is it not the best terminology?

Because it's an insult?

Not only is it an insult, it's a degrading slur for women.

Yes.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

In the opening cutscene of the original game, his asking price for saving the girl was some money and a night of sex with her. That tends to rub people the wrong way.

Ahahahaha really? Really? Did they change that for the Enhanced Edition, or did I just miss it?

Because that's pretty funny.

Terrible, of course. So terrible it's hilarious.

<youtube=qtrKfZqokl4>

First thirty seconds. Admittedly somewhat ambiguous, but what are you going to think when the narrator says "It was enough to spend the night with her from dusk 'til dawn"? It's certainly what I thought he was going for.

Not even close. Geralt spent the night with her from dusk until dawn laying on the lid of the coffin she was trapped in in monster form until dawn when she would return to being a normal human being and the fight would end. Nothing sexual about the opening cutscene.

You go through the exact same scene (this time, through actual gameplay) in the game as well in Chapter 3 when you have to do it all over again, and there is definitely no sex involved.

 

[wench]

The sex cards aren't exactly a very... mature way of handling all the sex Geralt has though. When the first one came up, my thought was, "The developers think this is what I want?" I'm no prude. In fact I'm actually okay with polyamory. But I'm in my late-20's for fuck's sake. Is it really too much to ask that I not be handed a bonus that seems to assume I'm a 13-year-old who just figured out that boobs are great? It feels more like a pretense toward maturity.

Personally, I saw it more as a sort of achievement system. And as far as things to get for being completionist, that's the most interesting version of awards I've seen. When I heard about them, I'll admit, I had the same sort of reaction as you. That said, by the time I got my first one, I totally loved them - and a lot of them were really quite beautiful.

Conversely - what would you see as a similar system that would have been a mature way of handling all the sex? As a side note - it's not something they added on for the game, the sex is a definite carry-over from the books, and it's fairly well rationalized in there. I highly recommend them, by the way, especially if you can read another language (most of them aren't in English yet).

 

[The Madman]

First thirty seconds. Admittedly somewhat ambiguous, but what are you going to think when the narrator says "It was enough to spend the night with her from dusk 'til dawn"? It's certainly what I thought he was going for.

That video is actually portraying a short story from the book 'The Last Wish', and having read said story I can assure you it's not sexual in any way. He essentially just has to keep her preoccupied and unable to return to her sleep till the sun rises, later on in the game you have to lift that very same curse using the same method and are given the choice of just deliberately killing the person or baiting them, running around, and just generally trying to avoid combat till the sun rises.

You're reading wayyyyyy too far into this. The original Witcher has it's bad points; those stupid cards for example (Which thankfully aren't in Witcher 2) but that definitely isn't one of them.

Sir, you're fuckin' awesome.

Spoiler: Here's a cookie

Why thank you, it looks delicious!

 

[MomoElektra]

Conversely - what would you see as a similar system that would have been a mature way of handling all the sex?

As someone who hasn't played the game: A system that lets you do just that but being something else than a white, straight male?

 

[wench]

Why is it not the best terminology?

Because it's an insult?

Not only is it an insult, it's a degrading slur for women.

Yes.

It's in the same category as queer, though - it's a reasonably well-reclaimed word. If you asked Jack whether she was a ***** or not, you think she'd say no? The fact that it was used as a combination of *****/badass gives it a positive connotation in my mind.

 

[Meight08]

It's not what I meant.

If game devs go out of the way to make women feel uncomfortable then how can they expect women to buy or play their games?

I can play Skyrim fine for example but The Witcher makes me feel physically ill. I love Deus Ex even thought you play as a guy because he isn't a complete asshat and women are represented as intelligent beings and not just there as eye candy.

The demographic is going to show more women buying games if they make women feel like they are as equal in the dev's eyes as the male audience.

oh, I agree

but you just showed (more or less) that at least a few big AAA games dont have women running around in chain male bikinis..the witcher thing actually seems like an almsot minority..so things are "sort of" getting better

though cat woman needs to fix her fucking zipper

I just feel like recently devs have discovered they can hide behind 'historical reasons' and 'It's lore' to explain away pandering to their male audience and excluding women.

It's lore that Conan is a big racist. I doubt they would make a game that included that part of his character so why is Geralt's sexism acceptable? It's the same level of offensive.

*facepalm*
I hate it when something that's part of the setting makes people scream.
"SEXIST!" or "RACIST"
Portraying someone like he is even if it as a negative aspect of his personality should be something that devs should be able to do.
If a character is racist portraying him as racist gives his character more depth.
If a character is sexist portraying him as sexist gives his character more depth.

Making a character racist or sexist should be able to be done because a character that is not a pure goodie-too-shoe is a rarity these days.
I HATE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.
Tell me why does every character need to be without any negative aspects in his personality?
please tell me why.

 

[wench]

Conversely - what would you see as a similar system that would have been a mature way of handling all the sex?

As someone who hasn't played the game: A system that lets you do just that but being something else than a white, straight male?

That'd be kind of like saying that a game should make Frodo or Gandalf women - it's a set character from literature rather than a created-from-scratch one. So, no, I don't think that one would have been possible.

 

[MomoElektra]

Why is it not the best terminology?

Because it's an insult?

Not only is it an insult, it's a degrading slur for women.

Yes.

It's in the same category as queer, though - it's a reasonably well-reclaimed word. If you asked Jack whether she was a ***** or not, you think she'd say no? The fact that it was used as a combination of *****/badass gives it a positive connotation in my mind.

Maybe. But ...what's the word again... making a bad word mean something good, that only works for the marginalized group. For example some lesbians using "****" or some people of color using "n*gger"... it just is different when members of a marginalized group use it than people from the oppressing group (I have that information from people from exactly those groups, but it may not be true for every member of those groups).

If Jack, as a video game character, likes that description, that is her right. Doesn't make the term any less problematic.

Or to be very specific: There is a subtle difference between Jack calling herself a ***** and some other character, say Miranda, calling her that.

It's still a slur, but Jack would use it as a tool for empowerment while Miranda would use it as a means of oppression.

Conversely - what would you see as a similar system that would have been a mature way of handling all the sex?

As someone who hasn't played the game: A system that lets you do just that but being something else than a white, straight male?

That'd be kind of like saying that a game should make Frodo or Gandalf women - it's a set character from literature rather than a created-from-scratch one. So, no, I don't think that one would have been possible.

Because the source doesn't allow for it? Relevant point, doesn't change anything concerning the sexism, though.

Conversely - what would you see as a similar system that would have been a mature way of handling all the sex?

Don't sensationalize it with a fucking achievement system.

Really good point.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Conversely - what would you see as a similar system that would have been a mature way of handling all the sex?

As someone who hasn't played the game: A system that lets you do just that but being something else than a white, straight male?

That'd be kind of like saying that a game should make Frodo or Gandalf women - it's a set character from literature rather than a created-from-scratch one. So, no, I don't think that one would have been possible.

Portray women like they are normal people and not sex obsessed doormats who can't control themselves the minute Geralt walks in?

There is sex in Mass Effect but the female characters act like they are people and not virtual whores.

 

[omega 616]

Why is it not the best terminology?

Because it's an insult?

Why is it not the best terminology?

Because it's an insult?

Not only is it an insult, it's a degrading slur for women.

Oh no, I hope I don't offend those pixels. Those pixels who are nothing, they cannot hear or be offended.

How do you possibly offend the unoffendable?

Not only is it an insult, it's an insult .... the meaning of insult is a degrading slur. You're explaining an explanation.

 

[Meight08]

Tali's character essentially derails into doormat territory when her love subplot starts, because apparently Bioware's worried that the neckbeards won't be attracted to her unless she hero-worships and is completely dependent on their player-character.

Not trying to be contrarian, but in one of my playthroughs I read into it a bit differently. I was playing a Colonist/Sole Survivor Shepard, a guy who had everything he ever loved violently ripped away from him repeatedly. Tali felt like a stranger even among her own people. Each of them saw the other as the only one they could be vulnerable around, the only one who understood what it was like to feel so lonely.

I'll grant you that this may have been in large part my own feverish imagination hard at work, but there you have it.

Conversely - what would you see as a similar system that would have been a mature way of handling all the sex?

Don't sensationalize it with a fucking achievement system.

As a side note - it's not something they added on for the game, the sex is a definite carry-over from the books, and it's fairly well rationalized in there. I highly recommend them, by the way, especially if you can read another language (most of them aren't in English yet).

What language? Slovak, Czech, Polish? I just started trying to learn Slovak in the hopes of visiting the old country some day in the not-too-distant future.

I HATE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.

Here we fucking go again. Do you even know what political correctness is? Do you realize that bitching about it in all caps just makes you look like a tool?

Political correctness is a term which denotes language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in occupational, gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, certain other religions, beliefs or ideologies, disability, and age-related contexts, and, as purported by the term, doing so to an excessive extent.

Yes i know what it means.

 

[wench]

*facepalm*
I hate it when something that's part of the setting makes people scream.
"SEXIST!" or "RACIST"
Portraying someone like he is even if it as a negative aspect of his personality should be something that devs should be able to do.
If a character is racist portraying him as racist gives his character more depth.
If a character is sexist portraying him as sexist gives his character more depth.

Making a character racist or sexist should be able to be done because a character that is not a pure goodie-too-shoe Pansy is a rarity these days.
I HATE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.
Tell me why does every character need to be without any negative aspects in his personality?
please tell me why.

You almost had me with you right up to the "pansy" comment. Sure, I think that characters should be able to have depth - and that includes negative aspects. But there's a line between the character being one of those things and the game just flat-out supporting those attitudes.

 

[Meight08]

Conversely - what would you see as a similar system that would have been a mature way of handling all the sex?

As someone who hasn't played the game: A system that lets you do just that but being something else than a white, straight male?

That'd be kind of like saying that a game should make Frodo or Gandalf women - it's a set character from literature rather than a created-from-scratch one. So, no, I don't think that one would have been possible.

Portray women like they are normal people and not sex obsessed doormats who can't control themselves the minute Geralt walks in?

There is sex in Mass Effect but the female characters act like they are people and not virtual whores.

Have you even played the witcher 2?
all the woman geralt can have sex with are normal human characters.
Well except the elf and the succubus

 

[Meight08]

*facepalm*
I hate it when something that's part of the setting makes people scream.
"SEXIST!" or "RACIST"
Portraying someone like he is even if it as a negative aspect of his personality should be something that devs should be able to do.
If a character is racist portraying him as racist gives his character more depth.
If a character is sexist portraying him as sexist gives his character more depth.

Making a character racist or sexist should be able to be done because a character that is not a pure goodie-too-shoe Pansy is a rarity these days.
I HATE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.
Tell me why does every character need to be without any negative aspects in his personality?
please tell me why.

You almost had me with you right up to the "pansy" comment. Sure, I think that characters should be able to have depth - and that includes negative aspects. But there's a line between the character being one of those things and the game just flat-out supporting those attitudes.

Sorry i meant the term goodie too shoe pansy as a
"charactre with no flaws"
Im editing it sorry.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Have you even played the witcher 2?
all the woman geralt can have sex with are normal human characters?
Well except the elf and the succubus

No I haven't because the first one made me feel physically ill.

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

'Let's discourage people from buying our games, that's a good business strategy!'

I'd take a good guess that's not what they're doing, but rather, focusing so much on men under 30 that every other demographic is basically ignored.