Are mainstream devs deliberately discouraging women from gaming?

[Meight08]

Political correctness is a term which denotes language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in occupational, gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, certain other religions, beliefs or ideologies, disability, and age-related contexts, and, as purported by the term, doing so to an excessive extent.

Yes i know what it means.

Gold star for going to Wikipedia. Now, since we can sum up political correctness as just being nice to people... why do you hate this exactly?

Meh, you have fun in your way, and I'll have it in mine. =) Actually, a fucking achievement system is a brilliant description for it!

I'm just of the opinion that sex is something natural, part of every day life. Sensationalizing it just feels like cheap pandering. I won't lie, I enjoy the occasional bit of fan service myself. But to use an earlier metaphor, I enjoy it in the same way I do junk food. It's nice to have now and again, but it's not really good for me in huge doses.

I think that's a fair reading of your playthrough - I'm just not sure that's the reason Bioware wrote Tali the way they did.

I don't disagree, but I don't always put a lot of stock in authorial intent. It could be my own egomania at work, but the reality of the game is how I roleplay it in my head. They're giving me the chance to tell my own story (within limitations, obviously), so I end up turning my interpretations into canon based on how I believe this incarnation of my character sees the world.

...I just realized that there's no way I can say any of that without sounding like a pretentious twit. I guess my point is that I'm not saying you're wrong, and there's always room for improvement, but I feel that individual experiences count for something as well. Even if authorial intent doesn't match the interpretation, there's something to be said for the latter.

Its not just being nice its not being allowed to express certain opinions because saying it will hurt someone's feeling.
If i say i dont understand why the a man would want it in the ass im homophobic.
If i say i say i dont like it when woman want a developer to make a new model re-record every word of dialogue and make every animation again just so you can play a female characters.

Do you understand that.
Its not "being nice to each other" its not being allowed to use free speech because it could hurt an oversenitive man/woman's/Man of any race's feelings.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Its not "being nice to each other" its not being allowed to use free speech because it could hurt an oversenitive man/woman's/Man of any race's feelings.

"Freedom of speech" does not, and has not ever meant "Freedom from consequences". Just as you are free to express your bigoted opinions, so are others free to call you out on them. If that hurts your feelings and makes you feel defensive, maybe you should engage in some hearty self-reflection, instead of trying to invoke "Freedom of Speech" every time something stupid you've said goes over like a lead balloon.

 

[Meight08]

Its not "being nice to each other" its not being allowed to use free speech because it could hurt an oversenitive man/woman's/Man of any race's feelings.

"Freedom of speech" does not, and has not ever meant "Freedom from consequences". Just as you are free to express your bigoted opinions, so are others free to call you out on them. If that hurts your feelings and makes you feel defensive, maybe you should engage in some hearty self-reflection, instead of trying to invoke "Freedom of Speech" every time something stupid you've said goes over like a lead balloon.

How am i a bigot?
i just made examples.

 

[mrdude2010]

No. Look at how dedicated they are at making money- they won't even change anything in their call of duty games. They're not going to deliberately cut out half of their potential customer base.

some more specific responses:

AC3- For one thing, yes. A Native American would be much less conspicuous than a woman dressed in a way she'd need to be to do assassin's creed stuff. At the time, Native Americans along the East Coast were semi-integrated into society, at least to some extent. For another thing, you're playing a specific ancestor. Seeing a menu pop up saying "Please select your ancestor's gender" is a little flow breaking if the entire game isn't based around you being your own individual character.

The Witcher- No, he wouldn't, because a womanizer is much more socially acceptable than a racist. That's society, not the game devs.

Kingdom of Amalur- that's just laziness on the dev's part- instead of writing two separate scripts they just copied the script for the male character. Do they force you to marry the female to continue the quest if you start as a male? I haven't played this one, but it sounds like laziness rather than sexism.

Risen 2- Again, it's hard work redoing all of the animations for a female character. Probably laziness. Although it is much less excusable here, because of the whole "nameless hero" thing.

 

[MomoElektra]

Its not "being nice to each other" its not being allowed to use free speech because it could hurt an oversenitive man/woman's/Man of any race's feelings.

"Freedom of speech" does not, and has not ever meant "Freedom from consequences". Just as you are free to express your bigoted opinions, so are others free to call you out on them. If that hurts your feelings and makes you feel defensive, maybe you should engage in some hearty self-reflection, instead of trying to invoke "Freedom of Speech" every time something stupid you've said goes over like a lead balloon.

You're my new hero*. Too bad derailingfordummies.com is down, I sure could have used the research.


*one of several here, actually. You restored my faith in humanity.

 

[wench]

... but just having men be in a book is not sexist? Of course it is. It's just that in our societies the (white, straight) male is the standard so it's really some work to recognize it.

LotR could have just as well worked with a mixed Fellowship of the Ring. But Tolkien was from a time where females were considered to be, if at all, side characters. So that's what he made of them (and he made them well, but still just that and little more).

It's still a terrific story and it's still sexist.

Having a character male itself does not make a character/story sexist. But having the character be only male (because that's how it's perceived to be normal) is very much sexist.

Sorry, what I was saying was that the existence of men in a book is not inherently sexist, not that a book with only men in it wasn't sexist. Personally, if a book is handling women characters well for its' time period, I don't tend to stick it in the "sexist" category. He made an effort to handle women characters well within the context of society at the time, and that works for me.

I think perhaps that I just require a bit more malice or intention to stick it in that category.

 

[omega 616]

Why wouldn't I? If I offended a bunch of pixels an angry Scottish black guy isn't going to show up at my door with a massive sword and a shield with a spike on it!

So your argument is that it's only wrong if you're in danger of being punished for your actions?

Am I a racist? No, do I say racist things? If they can, why can't I? Isn't that racist? Excluding one group of people from doing something that others can do.

So you want to be able to shout racist slurs in public and not get punched in the dick for it?

No, I think it is about context.

If a black guy says to another black guy and say "sup [racial slur]", as they stereotypically do, then that's cool.

If a black guy is pissed off at another black guy and says "fuck you, [racial slur]" then that is not cool.

Why is it suddenly racist if I, as a white guy, say to a black person "hi, [racial slur]"?

I don't say racial slurs out in public 'cos not everybody thinks like I do, so I would be going against the accepted norm, which in this case a group of black people will be the shit out of me, loads of racists will cheer me and loads of level headed people will loathe me .... while I should have followed the "do as I say, not as I do" line of thinking.

 

[mrdude2010]

Its not "being nice to each other" its not being allowed to use free speech because it could hurt an oversenitive man/woman's/Man of any race's feelings.

"Freedom of speech" does not, and has not ever meant "Freedom from consequences". Just as you are free to express your bigoted opinions, so are others free to call you out on them. If that hurts your feelings and makes you feel defensive, maybe you should engage in some hearty self-reflection, instead of trying to invoke "Freedom of Speech" every time something stupid you've said goes over like a lead balloon.

How am i a bigot?
i just made examples.

I think he meant "you" generally rather than you specifically. He is right, though, "fighting words" including hate speech and "offensive" material aren't covered under free speech. What exactly constitutes those exceptions is a different debate entirely.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

How am i a bigot?

i just made examples.

You're expressing bigoted opinions. If they're not actually your opinions, clearly you are not a bigot. I called the OPINIONS bigoted. Unless you're owning them, feel free to go about your day.

 

[MomoElektra]

Sorry, what I was saying was that the existence of men in a book is not inherently sexist,

No one said so.

not that a book with only men in it wasn't sexist. Personally, if a book is handling women characters well for its' time period, I don't tend to stick it in the "sexist" category. .

Why? The time period may have been sexist (very likely). Why rule that out?

He made an effort to handle women characters well within the context of society at the time, and that works for me. .

That's okay. There is a difference between sexist and misogynist. Sometimes. There is also, of course, a difference between showing sexism and being sexist (although with some fanboys and fangirls that divide is very...slim).

I think perhaps that I just require a bit more malice or intention to stick it in that category.

That's alright, too.

Edit: I can't get the quotes to work. Sigh.

 

[Phasmal]

If i say i say i dont like it when woman want a developer to make a new model re-record every word of dialogue and make every animation again just so you can play a female characters.

Why would you not like that? It doesn't inconveniance you and it allows a game to perhaps be enjoyed more by half the population?
Is that a bad thing? Besides, the gaming industry is up to its eyeballs in samey looking dudes.

 

[Meight08]

Its not "being nice to each other" its not being allowed to use free speech because it could hurt an oversenitive man/woman's/Man of any race's feelings.

"Freedom of speech" does not, and has not ever meant "Freedom from consequences". Just as you are free to express your bigoted opinions, so are others free to call you out on them. If that hurts your feelings and makes you feel defensive, maybe you should engage in some hearty self-reflection, instead of trying to invoke "Freedom of Speech" every time something stupid you've said goes over like a lead balloon.

How am i a bigot?
i just made examples.

I think he meant "you" generally rather than you specifically. He is right, though, "fighting words" including hate speech and "offensive" material aren't covered under free speech. What exactly constitutes those exceptions is a different debate entirely.

I am talking about the things that or not hate speech.
Im talking about being called racist because you theoretically say to a black friend of your after you accidentaly broke a lamp of his.
"If i bring you a kfc bucket will you forgive me?"
Just innocent jokes that are just that jokes

 

[wench]

Yes. You are hurting real people.
If you call characters, real or not, bitches, for liking them or not liking them, you enforce the same thing in real life (reward/punishment for certain types of behaviour).

It's not that much of a stretch, really. Imagine if much of modern tv were nazi propganda.
You'd not claim that this propaganda, shown on tv and newspapers, only hurt the tv and the ink, would you?

Look, I'm a massive feminist, but calling a character a ***** in a positive manner doesn't actually hurt real women (if you think it does, feel free to link to the research showing that - and yes, I mean research and not "literary criticism"),.

I have a hard time believing you because if you were a massive feminist you would leave feeling hurt by the word to those who are affected by it.

Absolute nonsense. Being a feminist does not require that I take offense on behalf of people who don't need me to - how arrogant would that be of me? I can provide references if you need to check my feminist/queer (bi)/union/socialist credentials. The fact that a word can be used to hurt people does not mean that I have to give in to that, and it doesn't mean that I need to be hurt by it.

I see you missed my part about the "bad words" being used by a marginalized group as a means of empowerment.

I didn't miss it at all, I just don't think that this is entirely a valid argument. One of the things about reclaiming words like "*****" or "slut" or "dyke" is that when the reclamation is successful, the words start to lose their power to hurt the people in that group. After that, I'm totally cool with people using them in a positive way - why on earth not? That's the whole point of that reclamation.

 

[MomoElektra]

If i say i say i dont like it when woman want a developer to make a new model re-record every word of dialogue and make every animation again just so you can play a female characters.

Why would you not like that? It doesn't inconveniance you and it allows a game to perhaps be enjoyed more by half the population?
Is that a bad thing? Besides, the gaming industry is up to its eyeballs in samey looking dudes.

There seems to be this notion in somme not-marginalized groups (or certain individuals from those groups), that giving rights/options/possibilities to marginalized groups takes away their rights/options/possibilities as if it were a zero-sum-game.

 

[Meight08]

Its not just being nice its not being allowed to express certain opinions because saying it will hurt someone's feeling.
If i say i dont understand why the a man would want it in the ass im homophobic.
If i say i say i dont like it when woman want a developer to make a new model re-record every word of dialogue and make every animation again just so you can play a female characters.

Do you understand that.
Its not "being nice to each other" its not being allowed to use free speech because it could hurt an oversenitive man/woman's/Man of any race's feelings.

Oh, I understand perfectly. You want to say whatever you want and not be held responsible for the consequences.

You looked up the definition of political correctness, but you apparently failed to look up what free speech actually means in the US, so let me explain it to you. The first amendment simply states, "Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech." None of us are Congress, nor are we trying to pass legislation. In fact, I am exercising my freedom of speech by calling you a myopic, uninformed, insensitive, egocentric ignoramus.

Maybe you should just suck it up and learn to exercise some basic human empathy. Just because you have a thought in your head does not automatically mean that you should voice it or that that thought has any merit.

All my examples are freaking theoretical!

 

[Meight08]

If i say i say i dont like it when woman want a developer to make a new model re-record every word of dialogue and make every animation again just so you can play a female characters.

Why would you not like that? It doesn't inconveniance you and it allows a game to perhaps be enjoyed more by half the population?
Is that a bad thing? Besides, the gaming industry is up to its eyeballs in samey looking dudes.

Im saying it theoretically.
If a character can be a woman to fit the setting it should be done.
But the thing is if it cant or the dev does not have the time or the money it should not be forced on them

 

[AgentCooper]

I think the problem is getting somewhat better with how female characters are written and appearing in video games. It still needs improvement.


OFF TOPIC Speakings:

With that said we also need to raise awareness with Racial and GLBT topics and the portrayals and how these characters act and speak. This is a problem that needs to be addressed.