Are men finished? Will our new female overlords be kind?

[The Gnome King]

We do. It's just not an overt contempt, due to the inertia of the idea that that's what they should be doing. Traditionally feminine pursuits or women's work are not held in the same esteem as those attributed to men; therefore, men should be aiming for something "better," but it's perfectly all right for a woman to remain at that level.

I'm not actually sure this is the case. Motherhood (including stay-at-home) is elevated to something of a nearly sacred status, especially in the US.

Also, far be it from me to criticize your choice of references

I think the point is that you can find people coming down on either side of the "income disparity" issue. It certainly is becoming much less of an issue than it ever was before, to the point now where in some sections of society, such as with black women, more females are employed (at higher rates) than males.

Are you arguing that there is not, in fact, a current element of favoring female students in schools over boys, and drugging boys with ADHD medication when they exhibit any signs of... well, being normal boys? It certainly would explain why the majority of college students are female now, not male. And why this is such a *huge* change from, say, 30-40 years ago.

 

[The Gnome King]

No. We will not be 'kind', but we will treat you well. I like to think there is a differece.

Now please excuse me, there seems to be some trouble in the depths of my stronghold. I think my men-slaves are squabbling over who gets to use the blanket I provided for them again and it's causing a ruckus. Blasted ingrates, I'll have their heads for this.

I like your attitude.

Maybe that will be a new position for all the out-of-work, under-educated men in the future.

Man-slave. I like it.

 

[Saelune]

Sexism is bad. Doesnt matter who is doing it, or who it is done to. Both men and women are put down in their own ways, and often in ways people dont even think. Its pathetic really.

 

[The Gnome King]

I don't think the reason is because women are inherently super humans who are rightfully taking their position as leaders of the world
That's bull, I don't think there are such differences between the two genders, they are inherently equal, plus this is a phenomenon that's confined only in the US at the moment.
Which points to a problem in that demographic, and not a global phenomena!
Something is happening with young males in America!
Perhaps it's the loss of male identity in the society, I don't know?

Thanks for the links, amusing and enlightening.

I'm not sure that this is a US issue only, however. I think that the UK is having similar issues, as are other parts of Europe.

I'm also not sure what "the male identity" is, or should be. I'd like there to be a world where people are free to choose their identity free from gender constraints.

 

[The Gnome King]

It is unfortuneate that the main theories and beliefs behind feminism (which I can get behind, everyone should be equal in my opinion) has become somewhat tainted by the rigid minded and vengence driven idiots who seem to be more interested in 'winning the war of the sexes' or otherwise claiming dominance rather than actually trying to promote any form of equality.

Yeah, not all of feminism is like that but when you get very vocal members of your community who either sound like Nazis or misandrists then it's not exactly hard to see why people apply that generalising label to them (and it isn't entirely unjustified either).

I agree with you completely. It's not feminism that I mind at all - feminism is the noble goal of making sure women and men have equal rights. I think most men have mothers, sisters, daughters, and wives that they love very much and want to see excel.

The problem is when it devolves into misandry, which I see happening a lot. There's just this... disdain for men, especially in certain cultures in the US, that is troubling. It's like certain women want to go beyond equality and somehow "get men back" for what they perceive as years of oppression, or something.

 

[walrusaurus]

Serious Answer: Well our (USA's) education system is fundamentally designed to accommodate/promote a traditionally female learning style. So its an inevitable occurrence in the long run.

On a lighter note, who's going to make all the sammichs?

 

[The Gnome King]

Maybe the patriachal society is dying (and good riddance) but why does this automatically equate to women in charge?

I think a song from Loudon Wainwright III says it best:

"Men" by L.W. III -

When a ship is sinking and they lower the lifeboats
And hand out the life jackets,
The men keep on their coats
The women and the children are the ones
Who must go first
And the men who try to save their skins
Are cowards and are cursed

Every man's a captain, men know how to drown
Man the lifeboats if there's room, otherwise go down

And it's the same when there's a war on:
It's the men who go to fight
Women and children are civilians,
When they're killed it's not right
Men kill men in uniform, it's the way war goes
When they run they're cowards,
When they stay they are heroes

Every man's a general, men go off to war
The battlefields a man's world,
Cannon fodders what they're for

It's the men who have the power,
It's the men who have the might
And the world's a place of horror
Because each man thinks he's right
A man's home is his castle so the family let him in
But what's important in that kingdom
Is the women and the children

A husband and a father, every man's a king
But he's really just a drone,
Gathers no honey, has no sting
Have pity on the general, the king, and the captain
They know they're expendable, after all they're men

 

[Akytalusia]

darn. i was hoping this would be a confirmation thread that the kaguya mouse research finaly paid off and men were finaly rendered irrelevant. *goes back to waiting*

 

[infohippie]

Eh, if the ladies wanna be the primary breadwinners and start being the ones to worry about the bills and all that crap, I'm fine with it. I'd welcome the chance to be the partner that stays at home and does the housework. I already cook, and I don't mind doing dishes, sweeping, etc.

 

[walrusaurus]

I agree with you completely. It's not feminism that I mind at all - feminism is the noble goal of making sure women and men have equal rights. I think most men have mothers, sisters, daughters, and wives that they love very much and want to see excel.

The problem is when it devolves into misandry, which I see happening a lot. There's just this... disdain for men, especially in certain cultures in the US, that is troubling. It's like certain women want to go beyond equality and somehow "get men back" for what they perceive as years of oppression, or something.

This theres a lot of passive misandry in the legal system, both in criminal and family law. Women are by default considered more fit primary custodians, by no other virtue than tradition gender roles. They are also by default assumed to be the victim in criminal investigations.

The other big problem i have with some feminist movements is that they want equality without equal responsibility, special dispensations and such, which is just infinitely frustrating to me.

 

[Jubbert]

GUYS HELP WOMEN THAT WERE OPPRESSED FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS ARE SUDDENLY NOT BEING OPPRESSED ANYMORE, THIS MEANS THAT THEY'LL TAKE OVER AND OPPRESS MEN OMG

Kind of similar to this:

GUYS HELP BLACK PEOPLE THAT WERE OPPRESSED FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS ARE SUDDENLY NOT BEING OPPRESSED ANYMORE, THIS MEANS THAT THEY'LL TAKE OVER AND OPPRESS WHITE PEOPLE OMG

Everyone needs to chill the fuck out and stop being so damn alarmist.

 

[cobra_ky]

It's the men who have the power,
It's the men who have the might

that's the key phrase here. Whatever oppression and devaluing men face has been self-inflicted by the patriarchy. That's why i became a feminist, because i felt the social norms defining masculinity were marginalizing my identity as a man. Hell, he's singing about kings and castles; how many feminists do you think there were in medieval Europe? Women certainly weren't in charge then.

This the problem i have with most "men's rights" movements; they tend to blame overzealous feminism for all their woes and completely ignore the larger historical context.

 

[Hipster Chick]

No, women will never dominate men in a way that remotely resembles the way that men still dominate women. Men will never live in fear of being randomly brutalized by women. Men will never make 25%+ less than women just because they are men. Men will never have their penises skinned and sewn shut.

No, but men will have their entire foreskin removed - resulting in loss of sexual pleasure and nerve endings - in the US when a simple "clitoral nick" as a nod to Muslim religious tradition gets us enraged.

Also, the females earning less than men is a myth. Here's a few sites I listed above:

http://antimisandry.com/feminist-misandry/wage-gap-myth-women-execs-actually-earn-more-than-men-not-less-32408.html

http://unitedfamiliesinternational.wordpress.com/2011/05/02/myth-buster-monday-men-earn-more-than-women-for-the-same-job/

http://mediamatters.org/research/200605160002

And on genital mutilation, if you want to bring that up:

http://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/2011/07/22/cocks-rock-part-five-circumcision/

But... well, there's a lot of circumcision info out there. You can find out yourself that a ritual clitoral nick of a female is far less traumatic than a full male circumcision.

Seriously bro, do you have any idea what Sudanese genital cutting involves? A simple clitoral nick? If I may quote the Wikipedia article, "it is the removal of all external genitalia. The inner and outer labia are cut away, with or without excision of the clitoris. The labial tissue then grows together, forming a drum of flesh and skin across the entire vulva, apart from a hole the size of a matchstick for the passage of urine and menstrual blood, which is created by inserting a twig or rock salt into the wound." Oh yeah, the possibility of reduced sexual pleasure is totally comparable to that.

And as for the sites you linked to, again, seriously? A men's-rights forum and a thinly-veiled reactionary women's group? Because those are both totally unbiased.

 

[Hipster Chick]

[Fuck this site sometimes]

 

[Hipster Chick]

Wow, the degree of sexism in the responses castigating the original article for sexism is hilarious. Way to go, Internets.

No, women will never dominate men in a way that remotely resembles the way that men still dominate women. Men will never live in fear of being randomly brutalized by women. Men will never make 25%+ less than women just because they are men. Men will never have their penises skinned and sewn shut.

I agree with the poster who said that a lot of the fear of a gynochracy is a knee-jerk reaction by men who recognize the loss of their time-honored, dearly-held privilege and the women who help to reinforce it. To them, I say

GET. OVER. IT.

EDIT:

Who fucking cares!?

Women, maybe?

Yo, that whole men making 25% more for the same work argument is bullshit. If that was even true, who in their right mind would hire men? Seriously, if you could hire a worker that performed just as well for 3/4 of the pay, why would you ever hire someone who you'd pay 25% more, just cuz?

So, if men and women perform the same at work, but it's acceptable to pay women less, no one would hire men, to save money. Either this 25% pay difference isn't true, or there's a reason for it.

That reason? Maternity leave. The hiring of a female employee means an employer is more likely to be legally required to provide leave because of a pregnancy (Women being the ones who get pregnant and all), meaning a saved job for an employee who isn't contributing, and "wasted" money in required pay for a worker that isn't producing.

True, there is a rise in paternity leave, the majority of this leave is still being given to women though. When it is an equal 50/50 split in leave being granted for this kind of thing, the pay should be the same consistently, until then, a difference is maybe not justified, but certainly not unreasonable.

More reliable/consistent workers, probability-wise, deserve slightly more pay.

GET. OVER. IT.

As for the genital mutilation thing, trust me, most men are against that to, that is a cultural practice, and is recognized as dangerous and unnecessary by anyone with a lick of sense.

Most Western men maybe, but it's still happens to a huge number of women in Saharan Africa, especially around the Sudan.

As for the wage gap and your bullshit about maternity leave, which you seem to assume all women take, read it and weep: http://mediamatters.org/research/200605160002

And does the lack of any comment mean your conceding the rape issue to me then?

 

[Hipster Chick]

This theres a lot of passive misandry in the legal system, both in criminal and family law. Women are by default considered more fit primary custodians, by no other virtue than tradition gender roles. They are also by default assumed to be the victim in criminal investigations

Except, y'know, that whole matter of trying to charge a man with rape...

The other big problem i have with some feminist movements is that they want equality without equal responsibility, special dispensations and such, which is just infinitely frustrating to me.

You want to list some examples of feminists refusal to accept equal responsibilities, or are we just gonna take your clearly-unbiased word for it?

 

[Hamish Durie]

well s'long as some of them are hot right?

 

[Hipster Chick]

for what they perceive as years of oppression, or something.

Oh, right...those hundreds of years of being considered the property of men, not being able to vote or own our own property, not having access to education, being haunted by physical abuse and marital rape...we just imagined all of that.

I'm not saying women should "get men back", but maybe if you lot started to own the fuck up to what you've done for most of history, so many wouldn't want to.

 

[Hipster Chick]

It's the men who have the power,
It's the men who have the might

that's the key phrase here. Whatever oppression and devaluing men face has been self-inflicted by the patriarchy. That's why i became a feminist, because i felt the social norms defining masculinity were marginalizing my identity as a man. Hell, he's singing about kings and castles; how many feminists do you think there were in medieval Europe? Women certainly weren't in charge then.

This the problem i have with most "men's rights" movements; they tend to blame overzealous feminism for all their woes and completely ignore the larger historical context.

Thank you. Thank you for this.

 

[cobra_ky]

Seriously bro, do you have any idea what Sudanese genital cutting involves? A simple clitoral nick? If I may quote the Wikipedia article, "it is the removal of all external genitalia. The inner and outer labia are cut away, with or without excision of the clitoris. The labial tissue then grows together, forming a drum of flesh and skin across the entire vulva, apart from a hole the size of a matchstick for the passage of urine and menstrual blood, which is created by inserting a twig or rock salt into the wound." Oh yeah, the possibility of reduced sexual pleasure is totally comparable to that.

And as for the sites you linked to, again, seriously? A men's-rights forum and a thinly-veiled reactionary women's group? Because those are both totally unbiased.

I don't believe he was referring specifically to Sudanese genital mutilation. If you read the Wikipedia article, you saw the variety of procedures listed under type IV, including "nicking of the clitoris". I'm no expert on the procedure, but it sounds like circumcision is the more drastic procedure comparable to that.

Really though that's beside the point, because it's not a competition. FGM is a serious issue facing women around the world, but within the U.S., circumcision is far more prevalent. I'm still sort of on the fence with regards to circumcision, but i'm amenable to the argument that America largely tolerates altering the male member.

It's a situational and relative privilege women have in the U.S., largely a byproduct of Judeochristian privilege.