Are men finished? Will our new female overlords be kind?

[Thaluikhain]

Calling shenanigans to that claim that there is a massive amount of men who, while not conducting rapes, are tolerant of them. I counter with the claim that there is a massive amount of women who secretly want to be raped, so they let it happen.

There, a statement that is just as accurate, and offensive.

In the Western world, somewhere between 1 in 4 and 1 in 6 women will be raped during their lifetimes. The conviction rate for rape tends to be in single digit percentile.

I find it hard to believe that this could be the case if the majority of men abhorred rape.

I would disagree. Also, it's impossible to claim that it;s the victim's fault without admitting that a rape actually took place.

True, though that sort of thing still happens alot.

The main issue as I see it is that it's extremely difficult to prove that it was rape and not consensual sex. As I said, if people leave a club together and go back to someone's place, the assumption is that they will have sex. This is not to say that that's right, but that's what people assume. I think that what likely then happens is that the woman doesn't want sex, but the guy feels entitled. That is the biggest problem as I see it.

That's true, yes, and it's bizarre. I mean, in more or less every other crime, the victim does not have to prove they did not consent to it.

 

[b3nn3tt]

The main issue as I see it is that it's extremely difficult to prove that it was rape and not consensual sex. As I said, if people leave a club together and go back to someone's place, the assumption is that they will have sex. This is not to say that that's right, but that's what people assume. I think that what likely then happens is that the woman doesn't want sex, but the guy feels entitled. That is the biggest problem as I see it.

That's true, yes, and it's bizarre. I mean, in more or less every other crime, the victim does not have to prove they did not consent to it.

I'd imagine that's because there aren't consensual versions of any other crime. The equivalent would be giving your money to someone instead of them mugging you. If you report a mugging, it's not a sensible assumption to guess that they didn't actually just hand their money over. Whereas with rape, it can be quite easy to argue that the woman consented.

 

[cobra_ky]

I agree with the comparison to drunk driving, and that consent is revocable, but, calling it rape because someone agreed to something they wouldn't have while sober is a bit extreme. If someone is conscious during the act, and consenting while it is ongoing, it is not rape. So, while consent is revocable, it isn't in hindsight after the fact when one participated willingly during the act.

Remember I said conscious. As long as both parties are conscious and consenting, consent exists. Feeling shame, or disgust, the next morning does not another's criminal offense make. Doing something while drunk that you'd otherwise consider stupid doesn't mean it's someone else's fault, especially when they were probably just as drunk. The drunk driving is a really good analogy, if a person driving while drunk has an accident, they are responsible for their impaired decision, even if they drive safe while sober.

Again, talking about conscious and consenting individuals in the moment. Not talking about people who've been slipped roofies, or otherwise passed out.

So there was a thread here not too long ago about a girl who got drunk at a party. A guy showed up later, who knew she was in a relationship and wouldn't have had sex with him under normal circumstances. He pressured her for the rest of the night, and when she finally went off to sleep he followed her to her room and had sex with her. In the morning she was distraught and it severely damaged her relationship.

That's rape. He knowingly took advantage of her inebriated state to coerce into something she did not want to do. If he had instead coerced her into a signing a contract, a court would throw it out. Again, this is a case that's difficult to prove, but if that's what happened then it's still definitely rape.

Now, even if you've just met someone who's already stumbling drunk, and you don't know if they'd be willing to consent when sober, the best thing to do is not press the issue. It's just like if a drunk friend said she was going to go driving; it's your responsibility to talk them out of it. Same deal with sex.

 

[cobra_ky]

A slight aside, but in the first paragraph who are you referring to as the rapist? Because I would say that if neither can remember, and if neither would have had sex with the other sober then it would either not be rape, or both parties would be rapists.

You are exactly right.

The thing is, in these scenarios it's pretty much impossible to prove rape, as all the guy has to do is claim that the sex was consensual and the woman now regrets it. And it's one of those things, similar to the women screaming at men for opening doors for them, that may have happened in a handful of cases but has become legend and is now assumed to be commonplace. And that, unfortunately, makes it very difficult for women to report rape and see something happen to the guy as a result.

Right. since the criminal justice system is largely powerless in those cases, the best way to prevent rape in situations like this is to avoid them entirely.

 

[Emergent]

The ideas that all men support rape, are "potential" rapists, or are all colluding to create some kind of patriarchal "rape culture" is silly, insulting, wildly inaccurate, and based on pure speculation. Such attempts to turn the sexes against each other wholesale set the entire "feminist" movement (whatever that means anymore.. it used to stand for something coherent... now, not so much..) back decades.

 

[Mrsoupcup]

If women were the wonderful, delectable angels that we sometimes think they are - why would they flock in droves to watch Twilight?

You seem like you have bit of a chip on your shoulder there... Break up or something?

Nah, I'm just a plain misanthropist when it comes to badly written Mormon Vampire Abstinence Porn.

You didn't actually read them did you?

 

[MrAkuma201]

It might not be too bad to be kept as a pet. You get fed a place to sleep and get you'r belly scratched 8D

 

[Hipster Chick]

The ideas that all men support rape, are "potential" rapists, or are all colluding to create some kind of patriarchal "rape culture" is silly, insulting, wildly inaccurate, and based on pure speculation. Such attempts to turn the sexes against each other wholesale set the entire "feminist" movement (whatever that means anymore.. it used to stand for something coherent... now, not so much..) back decades.

Nobody ever said it was all men, but rape culture exists and the majority isn't working very hard to stop it. Read this: http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html

 

[SmartyShorts]

Will our new female overlords be kind?

That depends. Will you stay in the kitchen unless called for? If we ask for sandwiches will you provide them?

 

[Hipster Chick]

Its not a crime. If your accused of rape, you are basically blacklisted. You cant wipe that off, and you cannot jail someone. You get a small amount of cash (if you take the person to court over defamation of character), but that wont get you work or anything. It basically means your life is over, and the person who ruined your life gets nothing but a slap on the wrist. This is why emotion is so dangerous, people jump the gun without using reason and logic. Even a conviction does not mean he may have actually done it as juries are prone to go by emotion than by healthy skepticism and evidence.

Hell, American courts resemble the courts of the Salem witch trials than anything else. The juries just makes things worse. Its a literal cluster fuck of pure emotional fervor.

According to consistent reports by the FBI, unfounded accusations make up about 8% of rape cases. Of course, "unfounded" just means that there is a lack of sufficient evidence to secure a conviction. As such, although some unfounded cases of rape may be false or fabricated, not all unfounded cases are false. Factor that into the fact that between 75% and 95% of rapes are never reported, and that's an incredibly small number of women lying about being raped.

 

[dex-dex]

So is that how the future will be? Are men finished?

Will our new female overlords be kind?

We will rule with an iron fist and you will be treated as our concubine.
naw I am joking obviously.
Men are not finished. Just because for the first time in American history, girls are more preferred. It is still a men's world and women still have to bend and twist more then men do.
women are only recently being seen as more then just a lady to clean, cook and watch over snot covered children. There will be career riven women, there will be still ladies who want to raise children. We are now just being given more options with what to o with our lives.

 

[dex-dex]

It might not be too bad to be kept as a pet. You get fed a place to sleep and get you'r belly scratched 8D

you can't go wrong with a good belly rub. and I promise to take you for walks every day and give you lots of love.
but you have to grow out your hair so I can braid it because my own dog does not let me brush her.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Nah, I'm just a plain misanthropist when it comes to badly written Mormon Vampire Abstinence Porn.

You didn't actually read them did you?

We sometimes must suffer for the Truth.

If you can imagine the stream of consciousness of a prepubescent girl, it's pretty damn close.

You can almost see how a smart rake would use the entire scene to dominate a weaker-willed girl.

 

[Mrsoupcup]

Nah, I'm just a plain misanthropist when it comes to badly written Mormon Vampire Abstinence Porn.

You didn't actually read them did you?

We sometimes must suffer for the Truth.

If you can imagine the stream of consciousness of a prepubescent girl, it's pretty damn close.

You can almost see how a smart rake would use the entire scene to dominate a weaker-willed girl.

What possessed you to read them? I didn't think you the type to self inflict torture.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

What possessed you to read them? I didn't think you the type to self inflict torture.

To properly criticise, you have to.
It wasn't pleasant.

 

[Caverat]

So there was a thread here not too long ago about a girl who got drunk at a party. A guy showed up later, who knew she was in a relationship and wouldn't have had sex with him under normal circumstances. He pressured her for the rest of the night, and when she finally went off to sleep he followed her to her room and had sex with her. In the morning she was distraught and it severely damaged her relationship.

That's rape. He knowingly took advantage of her inebriated state to coerce into something she did not want to do. If he had instead coerced her into a signing a contract, a court would throw it out. Again, this is a case that's difficult to prove, but if that's what happened then it's still definitely rape.

Now, even if you've just met someone who's already stumbling drunk, and you don't know if they'd be willing to consent when sober, the best thing to do is not press the issue. It's just like if a drunk friend said she was going to go driving; it's your responsibility to talk them out of it. Same deal with sex.

If she was unconscious or never consented, it was rape. If she eventually said yes because she was drunk, the guy is a manipulative dick, and more than a little pathetic, but it is not rape.

Yes, people need to show a little respect for their fellow human being, and not take advantage of each other. Friends don't let friends get fucked, literally, and should watch each other's back.

But, impairment or not, we are all responsible for our own decisions. Regret for our impaired judgement is not an excuse for legal action, and it shouldn't be. Yes that man should be ridiculed, socially, even if she drunkenly consented, but charged with a crime he didn't actually commit? Hell no.

 

[cobra_ky]

Calling shenanigans to that claim that there is a massive amount of men who, while not conducting rapes, are tolerant of them. I counter with the claim that there is a massive amount of women who secretly want to be raped, so they let it happen.

There, a statement that is just as accurate, and offensive.

In the Western world, somewhere between 1 in 4 and 1 in 6 women will be raped during their lifetimes. The conviction rate for rape tends to be in single digit percentile.

I find it hard to believe that this could be the case if the majority of men abhorred rape.

Because men loving rape is the only possible explanation for that.

What a bad excuse for misandry.

Rape cases are hard to prove. You can prove objectively that they had sex but those tests don't show the lack of consent.

Because "not abhorring" rape is the same thing as "loving" it. Frankly it's something most men just don't seriously consider beyond a reflexive "rape=bad".

Every time I've seen that single digit stat it always included low reporting rates to get that number. And whose fault is that?

Every time I've seen that single digit stat it always included low reporting rates to get that number. And whose fault is that?

It's the fault of a culture that discourages reporting rape. A sort of "rape culture", if you will.

So there was a thread here not too long ago about a girl who got drunk at a party. A guy showed up later, who knew she was in a relationship and wouldn't have had sex with him under normal circumstances. He pressured her for the rest of the night, and when she finally went off to sleep he followed her to her room and had sex with her. In the morning she was distraught and it severely damaged her relationship.

That's rape. He knowingly took advantage of her inebriated state to coerce into something she did not want to do. If he had instead coerced her into a signing a contract, a court would throw it out. Again, this is a case that's difficult to prove, but if that's what happened then it's still definitely rape.

Now, even if you've just met someone who's already stumbling drunk, and you don't know if they'd be willing to consent when sober, the best thing to do is not press the issue. It's just like if a drunk friend said she was going to go driving; it's your responsibility to talk them out of it. Same deal with sex.

If she was unconscious or never consented, it was rape. If she eventually said yes because she was drunk, the guy is a manipulative dick, and more than a little pathetic, but it is not rape.

Yes, people need to show a little respect for their fellow human being, and not take advantage of each other. Friends don't let friends get fucked, literally, and should watch each other's back.

But, impairment or not, we are all responsible for our own decisions. Regret for our impaired judgement is not an excuse for legal action, and it shouldn't be. Yes that man should be ridiculed, socially, even if she drunkenly consented, but charged with a crime he didn't actually commit? Hell no.

Ok, what if she doesn't remember what happened clearly? What if she doesn't remember saying yes?

I didn't say anything about charging anyone with a crime, in fact I believe I said that a rape charge would be almost impossible to prove in a criminal court. That doesn't have anything to do with whether or not a rape actually occurred. I'd much rather prevent the rape in the first place than try to punish a rapist after the fact.