Are people too hard on smokers?
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The American lobby system isn't conspiracy theory. A lobby can only exist if there is a need for it - either real or perceived. Once a lobby movement is created, it garners its own momentum and not only can, but will resort to playing politics in order to remain.koroem said:
And as we all know, the political games people play have absolutely nothing to do with fearmongering. (Yes, that's sarcasm)
But I have to ask myself here, what's the point in proving you wrong if you just continue to use preschool tactics to "win"? After all, anyone that's ever dealt with the average 5 year old knows that while it may not be the most mature thing to do, sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "nah nah nah can't hear you" is a difficult tactic to beat.
Fact: secondhand smoke has never been (and can never be) conclusively linked to health problems. The opposite is true according to any number of studies, including the World Health Organization's own study showing that there is no significant link between passive (secondhand) smoking and increased health risks. In fact, the only significant finding of that study was that children raised by parents that smoked were 22% LESS likely to get lung cancer. (Journal of the National Cancer Institute, Vol. 90, No. 19, October 7, 1998, full text: http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/90/19/1440.full.pdf )
Fact: in the 1992 study on the effects of secondhand smoke (the same one that was cited upthread, where "an estimated 3,000 deaths per year" bla bla bla), the EPA used a questionnaire (unreliable) that was filled out by the people or their surrogates. In other words, some of the information used was unverifiable hearsay. If it won't hold up in our notoriously lax court system, why should we trust it in a "scientific" study? Also, in that same study, they claimed their results before the study was even finished. Then when the study WAS finished, and they couldn't come up with nearly the 3,000 deaths they'd already publicly claimed, they changed the criteria to more than double their margin of error to allow for the POSSIBILITY of 3,000 deaths. The full text of the study is available, but at over 600 pages I'd recommend getting yourself a hardcopy if you're interested in viewing the stupidity for yourself. Instead, try the decision of the Federal District Court judge that vacated the study on grounds that it showed an obvious bias and had no valid findings that weren't manipulated in order to satisfy that bias (judge's decision here: http://www.forces.org/evidence/epafraud/files/osteen.htm and the Congressional Research Service review of the study here: http://www.forces.org/evidence/files/crs11-95.htm )
In the case of the EPA study from December '92, it's interesting to note that this very same study is the one that almost all of our anti-smoking legislature is based on. It's also interesting to note that the judge (Osteen) that ruled against the EPA showed a very strong anti-smoking bias in his previous rulings in support of more governmental control on the tobacco industry and stronger regulations of tobacco by the FDA.
What this all boils down to is a few TL;DR points:
- No government agency in the history of American government has ever publicized a reason to downsize or eliminate their own agency. This includes lobbies.
- There have never been any credible studies done that show any link between secondhand smoke and increased risk of diseases in people; all of the ones done that have shown a link have been disproven at multiple levels and discredited on peer review.
So you vehement anti-smokers can get off my nuts now about how "my habit is killing you". It isn't, it never will, and you're blindly parroting political rhetoric if you use that claim to begin with. If you don't like the smell, fine. I admit that's a valid point and won't smoke around you. In return, I ask that you give me the same courtesy - if I'm smoking in the few places that are left for me to smoke, don't walk into my area and complain about it.
Instead, why don't you try educating yourself? Then, maybe you'll be able to argue an actual point with some legs to stand on. Not on this subject though - because the anti-smoking movement is all "smoke and mirrors".
I'm not going to argue with you. It isn't preschool tactics. It just doesn't benefit me to continue this because your adamant that the world of the corrupt has made me ignorant and gullible. Corporate denialism seems to have worked well on you. There is no chance that tobacco companies lobby or provide false information to protect their business interests is there.
There are reports that cooking food on a grill leads to cancer too. Did lobbyists and politicians make that up as well? Is skin cancer from the sun false too? How about breast cancer and all the charitable organizations that help fight it?
Smoking kills people that is a fact. That is the only fact that matters. There is shit in them, that you inhale, consume, whatever, that makes you sick if you do it enough, and magically it disappears when it is in the air that other people breath. Do I have to touch the thing to get sick, is that how it works?
I'll admit that even if I was knowledgeable enough in the subject to debate it with you, it wouldn't do me any good. Your mind is so far set that smoking is perfectly healthy to anyone around you (and health warnings to the contrary are evil lies from evil money grabbers and corrupt politicians) that it would be pointless. But I guess the best reports that suit your purpose are 10+ years old. Nothing more recent? Guess they just dropped the subject when they were caught with their pants down.
I don't harass smokers. I'm not rude to them, I don't give them dirty looks, and I'm certainly never on anyone's nuts about it. I prefer not to be near it. You wanna smoke, go smoke where there are signs that say its ok. Those are places I don't go. How difficult is that? People don't want to be around you, if there is even the slightest chance they can be affected. Stop crying over it.
I'll continue to be ignorant and protect myself from even the slightest chance your habits can make me sick. If that upsets you I'm sorry. Go find someone who can sympathize with you.
There are reports that cooking food on a grill leads to cancer too. Did lobbyists and politicians make that up as well? Is skin cancer from the sun false too? How about breast cancer and all the charitable organizations that help fight it?
Smoking kills people that is a fact. That is the only fact that matters. There is shit in them, that you inhale, consume, whatever, that makes you sick if you do it enough, and magically it disappears when it is in the air that other people breath. Do I have to touch the thing to get sick, is that how it works?
I'll admit that even if I was knowledgeable enough in the subject to debate it with you, it wouldn't do me any good. Your mind is so far set that smoking is perfectly healthy to anyone around you (and health warnings to the contrary are evil lies from evil money grabbers and corrupt politicians) that it would be pointless. But I guess the best reports that suit your purpose are 10+ years old. Nothing more recent? Guess they just dropped the subject when they were caught with their pants down.
I don't harass smokers. I'm not rude to them, I don't give them dirty looks, and I'm certainly never on anyone's nuts about it. I prefer not to be near it. You wanna smoke, go smoke where there are signs that say its ok. Those are places I don't go. How difficult is that? People don't want to be around you, if there is even the slightest chance they can be affected. Stop crying over it.
I'll continue to be ignorant and protect myself from even the slightest chance your habits can make me sick. If that upsets you I'm sorry. Go find someone who can sympathize with you.
Family is different than strangers. I have a sister who was very obese. I have talked to her about it, as she did about my smoking. Did we listen. No. We just got angry and more set in our ways. It wasn't until we found the SELF motivation to do it that changes actually happened. You can't change other people. Only yourself[/quote]Devornine said:
I agree, lecturing strangers is rather insane. But really - the majority of people simply don't have self-motivation. It's why they get stuck into such unhealthy habits in the first place. People should be able to listen to each other and comment on each others weaknesses so they can self-improve. Then again, as humans we are all pretty stubborn... and we can be stuck on such petty arguments when you know the other side has a fair point.
so what your saying if im in the middle of the desert for days find a dinner that only serves fast food ,eat said fast food ,i'd just die right there?does it not turn into fuel for my body?does it not digest?The-Saboteur said:
No, I think we should be pretty disdainful. It is sad to think that some smokers will both have to endure slowly killing themselves and all the resentment, but I think it's for the better as it gives them a much bigger incentive to stop, and it will stop children and young people from wanting to start.
Smoking will continue forever if we continue "accepting" it. So I'm pretty glad that most people find it completely unacceptable. One day people won't even remember how to make cigarettes.
Smoking will continue forever if we continue "accepting" it. So I'm pretty glad that most people find it completely unacceptable. One day people won't even remember how to make cigarettes.
The studies I linked upthread were done in 2009 and 2010, respectively. The ones from my most recent post just so happen to be the ones that our anti-smoking legislature is based off of - so how exactly are they not relevant?koroem said:
I'm not arguing that smoking is good for you. I'm saying it's not that bad for those around you. If you work in a smoky workplace (think a bar before the smoking bans went into effect) and live with a spouse that smokes a pack a day, guess how many cigarettes you're being "forced" to smoke per year?
Actually, nevermind. I'll tell you the answer - it's six. If you're surrounded by cigarettes at home and work, and you can't get away from them, you're "smoking" the grand total of six cigarettes a year.
Now tell me again just how bad it is for you to pass a smoker in the street, or at a bus stop, or outside of an establishment? I appreciate that you, personally, don't give smokers a hard time, and if you want to stay uninformed about the issue, that's your decision. That said, a little education never hurt anyone.
As far as other cancers are concerned, there's precious little left that isn't "cancer causing". That in itself should be suspicious - if everything that was reported to cause cancer actually did, then wouldn't we all have cancer?
Not sure why you quoted me; I don't use Wikipedia for evidence, but rather as an overall summary of a topic. What I'm mainly referring to are scientific articles and peer-reviewed research conducted by both tobacco companies and the health industry that make claims counter to the "publicly-accepted" studies that claim secondhand/environmental/sidestream smoke (whatever they call it nowadays) is a horribly dangerous hazard.UrKnightErrant said:
I dislike smokers because they are harming other people, if they want to kill themselves thats fine by me.
I think you should just be able to think. Smoking is carcinogenic. It's also many more harmful things. Now it's obviously worse to directly inhale the stuff, but it's fairly obvious that what doesn't get sucked into the smoker's lungs and comes towards me is still harmful. Just say the risks weren't as high as mentioned in the cited things (of which there are many), even if it was a 1% increase of risk I still have a right to be pissed off at smokers. And if that risk didn't exist then I'll still be pissed off to have to breathe it in. If some of the population walked around covered in manure I'd go to the same lengths to restrict what they can do while covered in the shit. But it's still just shit; not poisons and other harmful substances.mojodamm said:
Ontop of what the other guy said, the thing you have to do while going on to Wikipedia is use the CITATIONS. You know, all those little numbered links? Hence what what being said in the posts you quoted.UrKnightErrant said:
Aww, thank you.Mr.Platinium said:
to be honest though, it's not an entirely selfless opinion. I have other reasons for saying that people's choices are their choices and they should be allowed to make those choices without being made to feel as though they've somehow failed at life. But anyway, glad you liked my thoughts, such as they were. 
I agree, lecturing strangers is rather insane. But really - the majority of people simply don't have self-motivation. It's why they get stuck into such unhealthy habits in the first place. People should be able to listen to each other and comment on each others weaknesses so they can self-improve. Then again, as humans we are all pretty stubborn... and we can be stuck on such petty arguments when you know the other side has a fair point.[/quote]GraveeKing said:
A lot of people don't have self motivation yes... some people even like smoking. I get that and I know it is in everyone's best interest to quit. But talking to strangers about it when they already get it from the media and family, not the best way. When I smoked people would come up to me and say "Do you know smoking kills?" or the like. And I would laugh at them. I never listened to them. Just leave the smokers be. They will change when they want to. Or not. It is their right to do whatever they want!
I think that those people who hate smokers just hate them because their different. It's in any living being's nature to respond to something that is unusual to what they typically do.
Hmm, well yes I suppose when you look at it from that angle that may be true. Maybe it IS just 99% of inconsiderate smokers who unfairly give the other 1% a bad name?*Moromillas said:
(*Numbers adjusted for hyperbolic purposes)
I think that people are generally maybe too hard on them, but on one hand, I think they "deserve" it, at least a little bit. It's not the fault of only one party; some anti-smokers are too extreme, but also, some smokers are just as bad. I don't hate smokers, but I told my friends that I physically can't stand smoke (up to a point that I can't go to a bar or a restaurant, or even stand next to a person that smokes) and they try to be considerate. However, I can't always avoid it. Problem is, I get headaches and I can't breathe if there's too much smoke around. So naturally, they put me off. My mother has been smoking whole my life and I would end up coughing and feeling nauseous in a matter of minutes after inhaling smoke, so yeah, it bothers me. And I would be very happy if I could avoid hanging around with smokers. Of course, I hang around with my friends that smoke, but smoking is something I regard as a highly negative thing. I understand it's a hobby and your right, but it's a hobby and your right that is affecting me directly. I saw many comparisons with fast food in this thread, but the difference is in the fact that when your friend eats fast food, you don't have too; if your friend smokes, however, you will be forced to inhale smoke. You have a right to smoke, but I have just as much right not to smoke, which becomes a problem because when there's a smoker somewhere in my vicinity, I will be forced to inhale smoke. And I won't go into whether second-hand smoking is really that much harmful (or harmful at all); I can't speak for other people, but smoke as a substance is something that makes me feel sick, despite the fact that it may not be harmful at all. Imagine walking into a bar, being there for five minutes and developing a strong headache, coughing and the feeling of intense pain in the entire nasal region; that's how it feels when I inhale smoke, so naturally, I dislike it very much (and it makes me sad really, because it makes me unable to hang around with people sometimes and when they ask why don't I go with them, I sound like a prick when I say "Because I can't stand smoke". However, they are usually considerate so we sit outside where it doesn't bother me that much, but it's very difficult to avoid it altogether).
So i created an account after i lurked the last few days, and this shall be my first post.
Let's start here, i'm from germany and generally i never encountered the problem with militant-anti-smokers. Curiously that seems to be an american thing.
When people tell me they don't like to inhale my second hand smoke, i do a few different things, for example
1) try to position myself in a way so my smoke doesn't affect them
2) excuse myself for 5minutes, go around the corner and smoke there
3) not smoke at all
Allright, so that's what i do. But after reading some posts in this thread i honestly have to scratch my head. seems like some people dislike smoke because it's bad for me and supposedly bad for them (present real evidence please). Also they claim i smell bad because i smoke. Well how wonderfull, if we're going to lower our selves to schoolyard insults, let me tell you that your mother is fat. If you simply say that you don't like the smell of smoke : fine.
But why am i so confused about this? Well see, i thought this was a forum about game related discussions and some off-topic threads aswell. As gamers you should realize that telling people off for something that they enjoy doing, is stupid. It's the same BS like saying that videogames make you fat, antisocial and possibly a sociopathic murderer. It's the exact same argument.
Tobacco :
Pro - I enjoy it, it relaxes me, it's stress-relief etc
Contra - you smell bad, you hurt yourself and me, you're an addict etc
Videogames :
Pro - I enjoy it, it relaxes me, it's stress-relief etc
Contra - you're turning antisocial(never going out), you possibly train yourself to kill people, you're addicted to numbers and flashy lights etc
I condensed it down a bit, but you can hopefully see where i'm coming from.
Now for the smoky issue of "yeah but i have to inhale the smoke. i don't have to play games with you, just because you're sitting next to me with an DS"
That is very true, and let me be the first one to say : i apologize for that. Like i said in the beginning, if you're honestly really bothered by my habit and the smoke makes you feel sick, i'll not smoke around you and will personally try to tell my smoker friends off if they're not as considerate as me.
The argument "smokers are bad people and stupid". Yes, this is what a child would think, isn't it. I'm amazed people can hold this up and think this is an valid argument against smokers.
But sure, i'll accept that. I'm a bad person and i'm stupid for harming myself. But atleast i'm one iota smarter than you, since i don't discriminate against people on basis of their habits. screw you wanker.
Another good one was "People start smoking because they think it makes them look cool". Well of course. That's a perfectly reasonable assumption if you live under a bridge and sustain yourself on rats. Kids and teens start to smoke because it makes them feel cool. I'd like to have chat with atleast ONE adult who started smoking because he thinks he wasn't cool and hip enough.
Hand-in-Hand with this arugment comes the "they just want to be rebels". The same flawed worldview there i dare say.
Allright, i think i gave my 2c on most the anti-smokers-BS.
Now for the reason why i smoke : Because i like to smoke. i don't need another reason. If you feel the need to tell me what i can to and i can't do, I'll have to warn you that this makes me wanna smoke a whole pack in front of you, while you preach about what a bad person i am(consiquently, i believe that many anti-smoker-preachers do it because they secretly think they have to save me. let me say 2 words to them : fuck off)
Let's start here, i'm from germany and generally i never encountered the problem with militant-anti-smokers. Curiously that seems to be an american thing.
When people tell me they don't like to inhale my second hand smoke, i do a few different things, for example
1) try to position myself in a way so my smoke doesn't affect them
2) excuse myself for 5minutes, go around the corner and smoke there
3) not smoke at all
Allright, so that's what i do. But after reading some posts in this thread i honestly have to scratch my head. seems like some people dislike smoke because it's bad for me and supposedly bad for them (present real evidence please). Also they claim i smell bad because i smoke. Well how wonderfull, if we're going to lower our selves to schoolyard insults, let me tell you that your mother is fat. If you simply say that you don't like the smell of smoke : fine.
But why am i so confused about this? Well see, i thought this was a forum about game related discussions and some off-topic threads aswell. As gamers you should realize that telling people off for something that they enjoy doing, is stupid. It's the same BS like saying that videogames make you fat, antisocial and possibly a sociopathic murderer. It's the exact same argument.
Tobacco :
Pro - I enjoy it, it relaxes me, it's stress-relief etc
Contra - you smell bad, you hurt yourself and me, you're an addict etc
Videogames :
Pro - I enjoy it, it relaxes me, it's stress-relief etc
Contra - you're turning antisocial(never going out), you possibly train yourself to kill people, you're addicted to numbers and flashy lights etc
I condensed it down a bit, but you can hopefully see where i'm coming from.
Now for the smoky issue of "yeah but i have to inhale the smoke. i don't have to play games with you, just because you're sitting next to me with an DS"
That is very true, and let me be the first one to say : i apologize for that. Like i said in the beginning, if you're honestly really bothered by my habit and the smoke makes you feel sick, i'll not smoke around you and will personally try to tell my smoker friends off if they're not as considerate as me.
The argument "smokers are bad people and stupid". Yes, this is what a child would think, isn't it. I'm amazed people can hold this up and think this is an valid argument against smokers.
But sure, i'll accept that. I'm a bad person and i'm stupid for harming myself. But atleast i'm one iota smarter than you, since i don't discriminate against people on basis of their habits. screw you wanker.
Another good one was "People start smoking because they think it makes them look cool". Well of course. That's a perfectly reasonable assumption if you live under a bridge and sustain yourself on rats. Kids and teens start to smoke because it makes them feel cool. I'd like to have chat with atleast ONE adult who started smoking because he thinks he wasn't cool and hip enough.
Hand-in-Hand with this arugment comes the "they just want to be rebels". The same flawed worldview there i dare say.
Allright, i think i gave my 2c on most the anti-smokers-BS.
Now for the reason why i smoke : Because i like to smoke. i don't need another reason. If you feel the need to tell me what i can to and i can't do, I'll have to warn you that this makes me wanna smoke a whole pack in front of you, while you preach about what a bad person i am(consiquently, i believe that many anti-smoker-preachers do it because they secretly think they have to save me. let me say 2 words to them : fuck off)