Are transgenderism and transsexuality mental illnesses?

[DudeistBelieve]

and from my understanding, the transgenderism is because they're not born normal. I'll fully cop to that I don't know exactly what I'm talking about here, but that in the womb the development of the brain goes one and the body goes the other so the person comes out not feeling right. And it's not a societal construction either, cause of that one study I read about where person got a sex change at birth and never knew it, but somehow did know that things weren't right. Ended up killing himself.

I'd be interested in that study, do you have a link? If that's exactly as it happened, it would certainly mess with my perceptions that "normal" is arbitrated by society.

That'd definitely convince me that I'm wrong. I'd promptly change my position to advancing "transitioning" beyond the merely cosmetic if possible.

I have a couple objections that come to mind, but I think putting them forth is moot without further information.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

Hey your perception is your perception yo. I was just throwing my own two cents into the fountain, as they where. How much and if you change that world view of yours is up to you.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I appreciate the informative responses, though I was rather interested in opinions than that - but having the textbook definition is certainly good too. I suppose it is a yes/no question, but I rather thought my "utopian scenario" was an interesting way of looking at it. In my view if something needs "treatment", be it physical or mental, then it would be an illness. Perhaps it isn't an mental illness, then, but a physical sickness?

Perhaps the scientific and medical community has the right answer after generations of research and that you should listen to them and abandon your hypothesis as its something they've considered already?

Just saying. I wouldn't ask questions about a triple heart bypass and then ignore what the medical community has to say about it when they've spent generations meticulously researching it.

I'm not really sure what to do, though. I stressed an inordinate amount of times in my OP that I would never be against equal rights for trans-folk, yet I am still purported to have some kind of agenda or secretly being a transphobe.

Like I answered to somebody else, it looks like JAQing off.

It is honestly quite frustrating, but I'm still happily reading the thread. I think it is a shame that several regulars here are genuinely intelligent, insightful and also actually quite interesting, but just so rabid in their view that they view everything as a battle.

Its because some of us have to validate our existence to most of the people we know, including lawmakers and voters, every single day.

Maybe that could be another question for the thread:

Why is it wrong to be ignorant?

Ignorance is okay, as long as it isn't willful ignorance, which is ignoring valid information because you dislike the content of the information.

Acting in ignorance, even with the best of intentions, can end very badly. Sometimes really, really badly. [urlhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spec_Ops:_The_Line=]A few years ago a game came out[/url], one that I thought was great and would recommend, that did a really good job of demonstrating that point. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War]

You can call me daft, dumb, stupid and anything to the like, if that makes you happy - but why does it make me a transphobe?

Some people jump to conclusions. Like I said, it looks a lot like you're JAQing off. The fact that your response to new information was to modify your hypothesis rather than listen to the consensus of the scientific and medical community, which has a lot more hands-on experience with the subject than you do, makes it further look like that.

How does it oppress anyone?

Thats a long-ass answer with some varying responses, depending on what a person's particular philosophical viewpoint of "oppression" might be. I don't know every word and action you've ever done so, from my philosophical take, I can't say that you've done anything to oppress anybody. Similarly, I can't say that you've done anything to help trans people reach of point where they're treated better. Well, thats not entirely true - you created a thread, which has garnered responses, which have likely changed the viewpoint of at least one person reading, who are then likely to change the viewpoint of at least one other person. A domino effect. I will say however, that whether you like it or not, you've benefitted from transphobia. Thats nothing to feel guilty about but given that:

a) you're not transgender

b) there are people who are transgender

and c) people in power are far more likely to be biased against people who are transgender than people who aren't transgender

you benefit. A bias against transgender people benefits you. Think of it as a set of scales. When more weight, which we'll call "scrutiny", is put onto one scale the other scale is raised higher. You don't need to feel guilty and there's not too much you can really do to change it. Likewise, I'm a white person in the United States. My parents and grandparents were all from the United States, all of whom lived in a time of undeniably de facto and de jure institional racism. They benefitted and because of that I was born in higher standings than the equivalant person would've if they were black. I don't feel guilty, I did nothing wrong and I don't want to benefit from institutional racism but it doesn't change the fact that I did.

Do you not understand that engaging in discussion with people who may be ignorant is how you help them?

I certainly do. I've been here since 2008 and I've seen the difference its made. Hell, seven years ago we were having like this about gay people and a lot of people genuinely learned from those threads.

That said, there is such a thing as reasonable suspicion. I see people JAQing off every single day. Its gets tiring fast, especially when most answers asked are ones with an objective answer and are a single Google search away. I doubt its much different from schoolteachers getting tired of teaching the same subject over and over again. Thats not a jab at you, its just that not all conversations are balanced equally - sometimes people meet on an equal level and sometimes they don't. You've surely had a conversation with somebody where you were out of your depth and you've surely had a conversation with somebody who didn't know what they were talking about and you had to teach them differently. Teaching is regurgitation of knowledge and debates, real debates, is the process of educated people building new knowledge - the latter is a lot more engaging than the former.

I'm sorry this is very off topic... JAQing off? Is that an acronym?

Internet keeps inventing new words on me yo. Starting to feel like an old man yelling at the cloud.

 

[s0denone]

In more American states than not (I forget the precise number), it is not a crime to murder your lover for being transgendered. Never mind how many states allow employers, businesses, adoption agencies, and housing authorities to discriminate against the transgendered; let's for now only think about the number of places where if you're transgendered and your lover decides to murder you for it, the law will tell him, "No, we totally get it, bro, you got tricked into fucking a dude, I'd have killed him too."

This is not "insignificant shit."

Fair enough, that sounds absolutely awful - but I am not American, nor would I ever murder anyone. I am not talking about being "riled up" about transgender issues as a whole (and by all means, you should be riled up) I am talking about being riled up in terms of being hostile, aggressive and downright petty on these forums, if not this thread specifically.

Perhaps the scientific and medical community has the right answer after generations of research and that you should listen to them and abandon your hypothesis as its something they've considered already?

Just saying. I wouldn't ask questions about a triple heart bypass and then ignore what the medical community has to say about it when they've spent generations meticulously researching it.

I suppose the scientific community would know whether it qualifies as a mental illness - but I already knew that it has been found to not be. It is simply my opinion that it may well fit some criteria that I myself would care about. Not because being transgender is wrong but because being transgender requires intervention and aid. Being homosexual, as a comparison, does not.

body else, it looks like JAQing off.

I don't know what "JAQ" is, but I am not jacking off here.

Its because some of us have to validate our existence to most of the people we know, including lawmakers and voters, every single day.

Yes - and having to do that has to suck beyond belief - but being a forum pugilist isn't going to help anyone anywhere either. Not yourself, not any reader and not anyone.

Ignorance is okay, as long as it isn't willful ignorance, which is ignoring valid information because you dislike the content of the information.

Acting in ignorance, even with the best of intentions, can end very badly. Sometimes really, really badly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spec_Ops:_The_Line=]A few years ago a game came out, one that I thought was great and would recommend, that did a really good job of demonstrating that point.

First of all I want to stress that Spec Ops: The Line was, when it came out, the best game I had played in years. A great, if quite disturbing, experience. I do not, however, really see the relevance to this case... Because the main character is that game was quite clearly suffering from hallucinations and major mental health issues. It wasn't just about "willfull ignorance".

...But I am happy we established that ignorance is okay. I didn't think anyone would object to that - but that doesn't make it less puzzling why people, myself including, are being demonized for being unknowledgeable. There is a ton of stuff I don't know about, just like there is a ton of stuff you don't know about. I am not a frequent member of any transgender communities in my own life, but I know that several regulars here are (or indeed are transgendered themselves) which is why I would ask the question here. The result, however, was that regardless of how much I preached that I didn't mean to offend or discriminate against anyone, I am still gauged to be here for some nefarious reason. What the fuck would that reason be!? Yeah I am just some political puppet or here to be an annoyance. Fucking get real.

Some people jump to conclusions. Like I said, it looks a lot like you're JAQing off. The fact that your response to new information was to modify your hypothesis rather than listen to the consensus of the scientific and medical community, which has a lot more hands-on experience with the subject than you do, makes it further look like that.

Again, I do not know what "JAQ(ing)" is. The reason I modified my hypothesis is because it was clearly the wrong question, one to which I knew the answer to aswell. It was phrased poorly. "Transgenderism may not be a mental illness, but is it a sickness?" would have made more sense to my point but appear even more inflammatory.

I am aware being transgender isn't classified as being mentally ill, but ask yourself: If you are suffering from something, for example depression, because of being transgender, then you get treatment - in this case, besides potentially psychology-help and happypills, it is hormone-treatment and a sex-change operation.

If the root of your mental issues is your transsexuality, then how could your classify being transsexual as anything but mentally harmful?

Thats a long-ass answer with some varying responses, depending on what a person's particular philosophical viewpoint of "oppression" might be. I don't know every word and action you've ever done so, from my philosophical take, I can't say that you've done anything to oppress anybody. Similarly, I can't say that you've done anything to help trans people reach of point where they're treated better. Well, thats not entirely true - you created a thread, which has garnered responses, which have likely changed the viewpoint of at least one person reading, who are then likely to change the viewpoint of at least one other person. A domino effect. I will say however, that whether you like it or not, you've benefitted from transphobia. Thats nothing to feel guilty about but given that:

a) you're not transgender

b) there are people who are transgender

and c) people in power are far more likely to be biased against people who are transgender than people who aren't transgender

you benefit. A bias against transgender people benefits you. Think of it as a set of scales. When more weight, which we'll call "scrutiny", is put onto one scale the other scale is raised higher. You don't need to feel guilty and there's not too much you can really do to change it. Likewise, I'm a white person in the United States. My parents and grandparents were all from the United States, all of whom lived in a time of undeniably de facto and de jure institional racism. They benefitted and because of that I was born in higher standings than the equivalant person would've if they were black. I don't feel guilty, I did nothing wrong and I don't want to benefit from institutional racism but it doesn't change the fact that I did.

I'm sorry, but this section boils down to "straight privilege", "white guilt" and "white privilege". I cannot respond to this in a manner befitting this thread, as I think the concepts are simply too idiotic. I genuinely apologise, but I would ask you to discontinue this particular point - at least I will not be responding.

I certainly do. I've been here since 2008 and I've seen the difference its made. Hell, seven years ago we were having like this about gay people and a lot of people genuinely learned from those threads.

From 2008 you say? but your account is from 2013. I'm the real oldschoolcool ;-)

That said, there is such a thing as reasonable suspicion. I see people JAQing off every single day. Its gets tiring fast, especially when most answers asked are ones with an objective answer and are a single Google search away. I doubt its much different from schoolteachers getting tired of teaching the same subject over and over again. Thats not a jab at you, its just that not all conversations are balanced equally - sometimes people meet on an equal level and sometimes they don't. You've surely had a conversation with somebody where you were out of your depth and you've surely had a conversation with somebody who didn't know what they were talking about and you had to teach them differently. Teaching is regurgitation of knowledge and debates, real debates, is the process of educated people building new knowledge - the latter is a lot more engaging than the former.

Like I've stated, my question was phrased poorly, actually stupidly, in hindsight. I would like a discussion and a debate here, rather than asking a yes/no end result.
That was a mistake on my part.

 

[Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)]

(read the title)

you could've worded that better

Edit: I'm good to go with a sensible option in saying no. I have no idea why this thread even exists. This will bring nothing but trouble

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

snip

Let me tell you about transition, huh? BID is nothing like gender dysphoria.

Every reputable therapist I've ever talked to says BID is at least a partially delusional state, but it has a real neurological cause. The reason they want to treat BID with medication, instead of amputation is simple; BID amputations are willfully crippling one's self. There are a very small number of people who claim to have BID so they can get on disability, rather than work. But even in true cases, it's destroying one's functionality to have the amputation, that's really bad. REALLY bad. It also has no real resemblance to gender dysphoria.

Gender dyshporia is a far different condition: A huge number of people with gender dysphoria, identify totally outside the gender binary. That means they kind of can't transition, because they identify as neither gender, inbwtween genders, as both genders, their identity changes from time to time, or they identify in some way that's outside the binary. Things like agender, genderqueer, genderfluid, bigender and the like. Those are real identities, many of them require little, if any transition. Gender identity is an intrinsic part of a personal identity, and self image. When your body conflicts with that self image, it causes dysphoria, dysphoria can cause mental disorders like anxiety and depression and more.

Speaking of transition, did you know it comes in layers, and all the layers are optional?
Here are some layers:
[li]Presentation: This includes how one dresses, the physical mannerisms one adopts, and voice training. All things to present consistent with one's identity.[/li]
[li]Cosmetic Gender Impersonation: Things like hair removal, false breasts, and makeup training for trans women. Chest binding and packers for trans men. An extension of presentation.[/li]
[li]Hormone Replacement Therapy(HRT): This is taking crossgender hormones, a treatment generally restricted to people who identify masculine, or feminine, opposite to their sex assigned at birth. Taking androgens, and female hormone blockers for people who identify as male, or masculine. Taking anti-androgens and female hormones for people who identify as female, or feminine.[/li]
[li]Gender Reassignment Surgieries: There are actually a bunch of these:[/li]
[li]Appearance Surgeries: Cosmetic surgeries like facial feminization surgeries, or mastectomy. Things that help people look how they identify.[/li]
[li]Natural Hormone Altering Surgeries: This addresses parts of the body that produce male or female hormones. Orchiectomy or Hysterectomy, which reduce the unwanted hormones reproductive glands produce.[/li]
[li]Sexual Reassignment Surgery: The most complicated Gender Reassignment Surgeries, ones that change primary sexual characteristics. For trans women this means, reconstructing the penis and scrotum into a vagina. For trans men this means reconstructing the female anatomy into male anatomy, which usually requires a finger to represent a penis.[/li]

Here's the big thing though: No transition method is wrong! Every trans person has their own needs, every trans person may be happy with where they settle on their own path to transition. Transition is not about cutting off tits and dicks, it's about making one's body acceptable. We can't biologically change our sexes, yet, but we can do the best we can, to be happy and functional. This is far different from BID patients, who will sacrifice functionality for happiness. Us trans folk, we want to be happy, healthy, and functional in society and to our selves. BID patients will maim themselves because they feel a limb doesn't fit their body. The difference? Limbs are legs, arms, and heads, which are fully necessary for full functionality, and in the last case, life. A penis, or breasts are not limbs and they're not required for full functionality. The latter can, however; cause massive personal distress because one's gender identity says those parts are wrong.

But the truth? Biology fucks up a lot. There are intersex people who are functional in neither sex, but have ambiguous genitals. This is regardless of gender identity. There are also sterile people, who can't reproduce, who are more often than not, cisgender. That's the thing, life isn't perfect... Still we're humans, we can work to make people comfortable in their own bodies. We have moral issues with crippling people, but reproduction is optional. Gay people exist after all...

So let me tell you about me. My identity has been really confused. I was just a crossdresser as a kid, I wore girls clothing a lot, and I liked to present as a girl, be one of the girls. Then later in my early teens I felt bigender, especially after being told by close minded trans women that: "No SRS, then you're not trans!" Then I met one of the many really connected therapists I've had and at age 16 she put me on HRT. She taught me, I am myself, no matter how strange that seems to others, I am myself. She put me on HRT at age 16, I've been there ever since. That helped my gender dysphoria hugely. I decided that Spironolactone was too damaging for my body, I also decided I don't want to reproduce. So... I had an orchiectomy, had my testicles removed. They're counter productive to my hormonal states, and I don't want to add to an already bloated population. I saved some sperm, because I might change my mind. But I'm not a guy, a man.... I'm female. That's how I present, it's how I dress, it's how nature made my body... Wide hips, narrow shoulders, narrow waist. As it stands I look totally female, but I still have a penis... Yet, my penis, it's a girl's penis, because I am not male...

I've had to go through a lot of soul searching to find myself and I've found where I'm happy. Personally I don't need to get my penis inverted to be happy, I don't need to make changes so every sexual partner likes what I have. I'm a tran girl, I'm asexual, I'm panromantic, and I'm polyromantic. Those are all just parts of who I am. Just like being a girl with a penis is a part of who I am.

So no, trans women don't chop off their dicks, trans men don't chop off their breasts. It's a lot more complicated than you can imagine. Next time you try to judge us... How about walking a mile in each of our shoes? In my high heeled boots, in a trans mans sporty sneakers, in an agender person's practical loafers?

Gender identity and personal sexuality are really unique situations, like every part of everyone's identity. When you judge, when you demand conformity... You're no better there than when a church group demands everyone to follow their faith. I mean you here as a general. Bigotry, discrimination, fear, and loathing...

Rather than call trans folk "mentally ill", look inside yourself and ask these questions: "Why am I passing judgment on people? Why am I backing up harmful ideas? Why am I not accepting people for who they are? What's wrong with being different?"

But ask yourself this most: "Why am I assuming the worst of people, especially when those people want nothing more than to peacefully fulfill their own lives? What does that have to do with me? How does that devalue me? Why do I have to speak against people who aren't hurting anyone?"

I express my personal liberty, I don't do it to hurt anyone else, I do it to live a happy life. So tell me... Why should anyone interfere with my happiness?

Edit: As for why some people post full SRS commit suicide. Some of them are pressured into it, either by their doctors, or by their peers. Still others feel it doesn't solve their gender dysphoria. They still can't have children for example, they're sterile, and that does hurt many. It's something that can destroy a person. A trans man wants to be a father, but he never can do that, or a trans woman wants to be a biological mother, but can't... Still Transition far reduces suicides, conversion on the other hand... CAUSES SUICIDES.

 

[Wrex Brogan]

No. The answer is no.

Even if you personally believe otherwise or wish to discuss otherwise, the answer is 'no'. Transgender is not a mental illness. There... really isn't any discussion otherwise. Unless you've got years of medical and psychological experience in the relevant field and enough solid facts to provide a counter point, the answer is still 'no'.

I know this is the internet but seriously, not everything is a 'discussion', especially when there's already established fact to the matter.

I personally believe that transgenderism and transsexuality are mental illnesses, on par with schizophrenia and autism - a neurodevelopmental disorders aka "things that can't be cured or treated, but they don't threat to destroy all humanity, so fuck `em, let them be".

I don't advocate to bully or pursue them for their believes (in fact I pity the poor sods), but the moment one of these things start to parade or loudly and proudly yell "LOOK AT ME! I AM INSANE AND EVERYONE MUST BE THE SAME AS ME" or something among those lines is the moment I forget about this beings existence and stop notice him.

So in other words - be whatever the fuck you want, just don't be whatever the fuck you want near me, my friends or my family. And may the God have mercy on you if you start to convert other people of my circle to this.

...Can I ask that you follow your own rule, and keep whatever the fuck this is way the hell away from me? Because jesus christ, what the actual hell. You just straight up refer to people as 'things'. Like... the sheer level of ignorance here is appalling. You didn't even see common decency on the way down, did you?

 

[s0denone]

I suppose the scientific community would know whether it qualifies as a mental illness - but I already knew that it has been found to not be. It is simply my opinion that it may well fit some criteria that I myself would care about. Not because being transgender is wrong but because being transgender requires intervention and aid. Being homosexual, as a comparison, does not.

Well for future knowledge think of it this way - some conditions are cured and some conditions are treated. Lets say that your roommate has the common cold. You have something that you can stick in their arm and it'll be cold almost instantaneously - that is a cure. Putting them under some blankets and serving them some soup with ginger ale while they spend the rest of the day resting is treating them. There's nothing to say that there can't be a cure for the cold but thats not what we have.

With gender dysphoria its incredibly unlikely that you could just inject something in a person's arm and it'll go away instanteously. Well, something that isn't a part of hormone-replacement therapy (HRT) anyways. Instead, we treat it, and treatment is gender transition. Hell, even with Star Trek technology we'd still treat it the same way because physically changing the brain is just incredibly dangerous in comparison to gender transition, let alone the fact that there are a considerate amount of ethical considerations. If we could treat schizophrenia by having people with it wear certain clothes, have an service animal or even just a pill that doesn't actually effect their brain, say, an antacid, we'd do it. We can't do that, though, so we don't.

But you're splitting hairs and arguing semantics here.

You're saying transsexuality is a "condition", then? I could work with that definition. I would say "mental health condition" specifically, but "condition" nonetheless.

Still rather odd that you would go out of your way to make sure it isn't a sickness or illness, but is fine calling it a "condition" and using the common cold as a comparison. The common cold is a condition, yes, but obviously also an illness. I digress.

See my response to Sane Among Insane a little bit above this.

If that is honestly what you think I am doing, then I don't know why you're even talking with me, nor why I am talking with you.
Is that what you think? That I am "Just Asking Questions" the same way a person would ask "Are black people inferior to white people?"?

He wasn't willfully ignorant but he was acting in ignorance nonetheless. He wasn't told factual that would've made him stop attacking people (such as "you really shouldn't bomb that place because...") so it wasn't willful but he lacked enough information to make the right call. Sometimes you never will have proper access to enough information to make an informed decision but generally you'll have enough time to acquire the information necessary to make the right call.

A very contrived analogy in that case, given Walker had a myriad of problems besides ignorance. It is a fair point though, sure.

In fairness these can get nasty really fast. Just about a year ago there were a thread asking "what would you do if your kid told you that you were trans?" there were a fair share of ignorant comments, which I tried to do my best of correcting. There were also a fair share of explicitly hateful and abusive comments, such as kicking the kid out or inflicting bodily harm to them. To their own child. That can sour somebody quickly.

I can understand and emphathise with that --- but that doesn't justify going after me for merely asking a question or two. I am not here with an agenda of any kind, nor would I harm my future child(ren) for any reason, ever.

For the record "illness" and "sickness" are typically interchangable. A cold is both a sickness and an illness, while autism is neither.

A fair point. I am not well versed in English medical terminology, so the blame rests squarely on my shoulders here, without question.

I didn't say it wasn't. That doesn't necessarily make it an "illness", however. When you're trying to be specific about a course of investigation and/or treatment that is to be standardized, as it would apply to the scientific community and the medical community respectively, you have to be very deliberate with your words.

So you're fine with it being a "condition", as we established, but it is not an "illness", a "sickness" or anything like that?

That is still very interesting, because I do not think anyone would classify homosexuality as a "condition". Therein lies the difference and the distinction I am talking about in the OP.

This is my third account. I never banjumped[footnote]Well I did one time but nobody with a conscience would object to that instance.[/footnote], I just forgot my passwords to get into my old ones.

Haha yeah sure, that's probably what they all say!

A transsexual is afforded the same respect as everyone else. No discrimination. While the transsexual might be happy with their situation, they are still not content within their own body and require treatment to better their mental health.

I admit, your OP was at major risk of getting flamed but props to you for wording things on a professionally level. Not only do I find your OP legit in such a question, but I also fully get where you're coming from with this statement alone. Well done.

Well I appreciate that, but not a lot of people seem to think so.

OT: Not really, if hardly. A mental illness usually leads to violence or injuring oneself unless treated, which in most cases if unchecked- leads to some serious problems in the long run. Transgenders are fully aware of their life style, and simply want to live according to what makes them feel like themselves. If it isn't hurting anyone, and if the individual doesn't take advantage of people- then I don't see any issues with it. Granted we live in a world where transgenders will probably not get such civil treatment and despite homosexuals having rights in the USA, there are places outside that would still want to hang gays. I can't imagine what transgenders outside America have to face, apart from the few other places that don't want to kill every person that isn't straight.

I think you are kind of defeating your own argument here, because from my knowledge, being an un-treated transsexual means you are at a very high risk of suicide and severe depression, not to mention plethora of other mental issues.

 

[Silvanus]

Are there not cases where the limb in question is primary/secondary genitalia? Is there a chance that they might mistake that form of BID/BIID for Gender Dysphoria?

This would be why people usually see therapists and diagnosticians before they're referred for Sex Reassignment Surgery.

Some people are born sterile. But choosing to become sterile? How is that not willfully crippling oneself?

Do you consider a vasectomy to be crippling oneself?

 

[Terminal Blue]

BIID, for one. I mean, we were just talking about it. I mean, it's fairly consistent with what I was talking about, being comfortable with what you're born with.

Firstly, BIID is not currently a recognized psychological disorder.

Secondly, BIID may well not be a psychological disorder at all, but a neurological disorder. In fact, there is substantially more reason to suspect that that there is an "amputee brain" than there is to the common assumption that there is such a thing as a "transgender brain".

Thirdly, the medical consensus on BIID is actually a long way from the "discourage amputation at all costs". There is widespread support for the idea of permitting amputation in the case of untreatable BIID. The main issue at this point is that BIID is, as mentioned, not currently recognized.

Some are mentally caused, some are societally caused.

Actually, all are both.

Again, a mental illness is what we call it when a person's mental state is beyond that which can be accepted as normal or healthy by society. Sure, we also have to consider mental states as the product of society, and society as the product of mental states, but ultimately a mental illness is what we call a conflict between a person's mental state and social norms.

To sum it up, I'm aware that it is that way, societally. But in reality, it isn't that way, and so societally it shouldn't be that way.

I agree.

Speaking as someone who has gender identity issues myself, I agree that in a perfect world "transitioning" would be unnecessary. However, I also think that in a perfect world there would be no reason to privilege the notion of having a "natural" body over a surgically or hormonally altered body. Our bodies belong to us, why not alter them as we will.. save for continuing to cling to some neurotic Christian prohibition.

 

[Leg End]

Midnight Escapist Best Escapist, amirite?

Well OP, I go the route of it not being one and call it nature being a bit of a dick. Or you can go the route and say it is one because absolutely everything these days is mental illness that would be considered normal human behavior. Either way, nothing wrong with those who are any form of trans, in any definition of the word.

So in other words - be whatever the fuck you want, just don't be whatever the fuck you want near me, my friends or my family. And may the God have mercy on you if you start to convert other people of my circle to this.

I don't quite think it works that way.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

First off, allow me to thank you for taking the time to reply to me in such a lengthy matter. Let's begin.

Oh sure, lets.

Are there not cases where the limb in question is primary/secondary genitalia? Is there a chance that they might mistake that form of BID/BIID for Gender Dysphoria?

No, gender desphoria is a intrinsic and easily identified condition, if someone just wanted a part of their body gone, that's easy to identify too. Psychiatrists and psychologists are trained to tell the difference.

Why wouldn't removing the genitalia be crippling?

Because it doesn't damage or destroy one's ability to function, or work in society. All it does is remove options for reproduction.

When someone looks in the mirror, why would they see anything wrong with who they are? If your "self" is conflicting with your self-image, is that really your self-image, or society's expectations?

There is both... Let me ask you this: If you woke up tomorrow as the wrong sex, would that not be distressing to you?

I have to disagree. I don't think you should willfully cripple yourself. I hope you understand that is the only reason. If there was a way to switch from a penis to a vagina and back or anywhere in between with absolutely no long-term repercussions, I'd be all for it. But right now I see it exactly as wanting to cut off a limb. There's no going back. It's not the sort of thing you can say "hmm, I guess this wasn't quite how I wanted to transition" and just slip out of it.

Well considering that professionals go to extreme pains to prevent this... It's not an issue. One is not crippled by not having the inability to reproduce. Some people make the dedication in error, that doesn't make the treatment invalid, it makes the choice of person who went to those lengths, without being absolutely sure, an error. That's not very common though.

I hope you understand that I'm not referring to all forms of transgenderism, and in fact I don't even consider what I'm talking about to be transgenderism, but that some people do think of it as such.

As I said in my very first post here, so as not to leave any room for misinterpretation (*sigh* and yet there was nevertheless):

<quote=Corey's First Post>I'd say that some forms are. Not the form where you feel like a woman or a man inside while you are the opposite of what people think that should be on the outside. I mean the kind who thinks they're missing a piece of their body, or that a piece of their body they have isn't theirs.

I wouldn't even consider that transgenderism, but some would, in which case it would be a mental illness either way.

I hope you would be gracious enough to accept that this particular misinterpretation was your fault.

That's an entire misrepresentation of transgender states though, so no, you're wrong back to your first post.

I'd ask...who are you attacking here? It is not me. Why do you think this is me? How can you possibly have read everything I've said, most of it being exactly what you've just said now, and then direct this at me, as if I have taken the exact opposite view?

I already said "you" as in the general sense, as in people who call out trans folk for being trans. Which coincidentally you have.

You say that those sorts of people aren't sacrificing functionality for happiness, and yet, as we'll see later, you show that some of them are, and very short-lived happiness at that.

So sexual functionality is the end all be all of the human experience? I don't know if that's what you meant, but it's sure as hell what you just implied. I said some people jump in due to peer pressure, or not enough research, which I said is an error, already.

They're hurting themselves. I'm concerned for their well-being. They're doing these surgeries and coming out of them with regrets that cause them to commit suicide in depressingly large numbers.

First off, trans people who have had surgeries and HRT come out happier and commit suicide at far lower rates than trans folk who go untreated... You'd know that if you paid any freaking attention to the links presented by @MarsAtlas instead of injecting your own uniformed opinion.

The rhetorical quip to "Why am I assuming the worst of people", would be "why do you think mentally ill people are the worst?" But I don't really believe you think thatt, any more than I suspect you believe that I'm assuming the worst of people.

You are making assumptions about trans folk, by your own posts. So instead of going on any assumptions, how about you go dive in and educate yourself on the condition? I don't think you're the worst, but I do see how you're making uninformed and ignorant assumptions about trans folk.

Before I continue, this is not an issue of "either Transition or Conversion. I don't care how bad conversion may be, that hardly applies to whether or not someone should Transition in the manner that I'm objecting to. You don't have to do either.

Because people use conversion as a realistic alternative, when it's debunked quackery.

Anyways...

What do you mean, they still can't have children? This is what I meant by sacrificing functionality for happiness. They could have had children. They had the opportunity that some cisgendered people don't even have. A trans man wants to be a father, why can't he? He could use a Surrogate. But if he ends up sterilized due to a transitional surgery, he won't be able to, period. If a trans woman wants to be a biological mother, same reason; some cisgendered women can't carry children, they go for the surrogate method too.

Some people are born sterile. But choosing to become sterile? How is that not willfully crippling oneself?

A trans woman does not want to father a child, a trans man does not want to be a father... Doing such things not a "half measure" to solving the issue, it's a total invalidation of ones. There are plenty of sterile people, trans and cis, but... Having a child the wrong way is intimately damaging to a trans person. For some people, the inability to have children the way they feel is correct to them is an insurmountable problem. That includes sterile cis people and trans people who have had SRS. Sometimes the problem is deeper than just a question of gender identity.

Also... Tell me how my inability to have children makes me a cripple, you know... Compared to disabling arthritis in all my joints that I inhabited from family. Seriously. Transition reduces suffering, there is no way to completely eliminate all the suffering that comes from gender dysphoria, because parts of our minds say things like: "You'll never be a real man/woman!", "You're a freak!", "You don't deserve to exist!"... Most of which is a product of external bigoted sources.

So instead of deciding how we're wrong and being part of the problem.... Could you try to be accepting, understanding, and part of the solution?

 

[mad825]

Huh, sounds like the kind of thing I'd hear from Ayn Rand. That said, Objectivism is mostly full of shit.