Are transgenderism and transsexuality mental illnesses?

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Convert other people?! Are you fucking serious? Trans pride is a real thing we do it because we're proud to be ourselves, when society told us to be ashamed. It's not to "convert" others, because that isn't possible, transgenderism, like homosexuality, is a state of the unconscious mind, as in something you cannot truly change.

Also: "don't be what you want to be around me, my friends, or family"... That's hugely bigot talk. You, your family, and friends have all probably met an trans person and never even freaking known. Seriously, your whole sentiment... That's the stuff of bigots, transphobes, homophobes, racists, sexists... Also bringing God into this, to cover your own judgmental statement... Good Christians, Muslims, and Jewish folk don't judge, because judgment is God's realm. That's in the Torah, Bible, and Koran.

Whatever you want to believe - that is your personal opinion and I'm not planning to neither change it nor challenge it.
And unfortunately I live in a very conservative town with a relatively small amount of people, so no - unfortunately my friends and especially my family members never saw a living trans-person. I was less fortunate and he was an embarrassment for our whole university group (mind you that was less because he was trans, more because he was a megalomaniac narcissist that kept insisting on walking naked in the building, but for the majority of people the two combined)

Trust me, a large number of trans folk pass, many nearly, if not entirely flawlessly. Other trans folk are deeply in the closet and hiding their true selves. Chances are you and everyone you know has met people in both categories. Also if the person you knew in University identified as a woman, no matter how objectionable they were, referring to their birth gender instead of their identity is misgendering. Knowing their identity, but still doing it, is a calculated insult. Also being a nudist doesn't make someone a megalomaniac, or narcissist, it makes them a nudist.

 

[Leg End]

And as I said - as long as these people don't act like "giant freaks with a sign notifying you what our genitals are hanging around our neck" - they can be whatever the hell they want. And if you want to be a freak however - don't make others follow your steps. That for me is "converting" (although I will freely admit that my English is archaic and the modern internet definition probably differs).

I have not seen anyone, by what seems to be your(seemingly correct) definition of conversion, actually "converting" anyone. Unless, you include people discussing with each other about the situation and the other person making their decisions from there, whether it seems to be their situation as well. In which case, that's a tricky can of worms.

Well, if they do - I'm happy for them. It's not like I'm saying "We should purge all the heretics" or something among those. Just don't act like the whole world is entitled to acknowledge that "you're different = you're superior". That is a megalomaniac and narcissist, at least where I come from.

I've also never seen anyone act like this outside of the Die Cis Scum person and that's a case of everyone thinking that person is fucknuts. Have you encountered anyone like that that would make you give that example?

 

[Leg End]

Like I said - I saw only one 100% transsexual person in my life. A guy from my University group that made our group a local internet sensation, because he was dressing like a parrot, at first was wearing and coming in public places only in female lingerie (which is considered nudity in my country), made nude selfies and encouraged to other to photo him in classes and considered himself to be a savant of modern singing and literature. That and he was trying to encourage others to do the same with a persistence of a cult preacher.

I think a closer definition would be "possibly high as hell" or "has absolute balls of steel". That's a pretty peculiar case.

He lasted only for a year after which he left the Uni and was never heard from again. As you can imagine - the experience was not pleasant.

I'd have thought there was a gas leak.

I (of course) don't say that every one of them are like that. And if they don't act like retarded - they can do whatever they want. Just don't expect me to threat you any differently than I would others just because you're consider yourself to be whatever you believe in. Than again - I come from a traditional country, from a traditional family and from a country with moral values different from the West, so what do I know.

I don't think a traditional country has ever existed really outside of just people shitslapping each other but I get your general point. Typically people of any sort do not shove things in the faces of people and do not consider themselves physical manifestations of perfection. All I can say is that your case was one of a kind.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

-snip-

I'm going to have to address the points externally because the quoting got all confused.

First, I am not trying to demonize you, still that doesn't mean the way you keep arguing points doesn't irritate me.

Now point by point:

- You avoided the whole question. I asked if you woke up suddenly one morning as the wrong gender, wouldn't that upset you? I didn't talk magic, I didn't talk surgery... I said if you woke up one morning the wrong gender, you'd find that distressing. Right? As in suddenly you woke up and your gender identity didn't match your physical sex. If you were changed sexes by magic, this would apply, because it wouldn't alter your mind, thus you'd still identify the same as before. So don't dodge the question. Gender identity, cis and trans, are deeply laid in the foundations of our personality.

-If someone has a penis and they say it alienates them because they're not a man, then they're trans. If they say they don't want their penis because they don't identify as either gender, then they're trans. If they just want their penis cut off because the feel it doesn't belong to them, but were assigned male at birth and still identify as male, they're not trans. Fair enough?

-I didn't say you said all trans people want to cut off their dicks, I said you've been misrepresenting trans folk. I called you out personally after the general statement, because you're holding to a line that ignores medical science.

-It is so what you implied when you basically said people who have SRS have "short lived happiness". Stop being dishonest.

-I'm going off things you've said, but it seems there is a key misunderstanding between us going on on both sides here, only amplified by our mutual agitation.

-There are binary trans folk. Many trans women feel robbed if they father children, many trans men feel violated if they become biological mothers. This isn't all trans people, but there are quite a few. A lot of trans folk would give up their vary lives to procreate in the manner that matches their gender identity. This means many trans women desire deeply to be biological mothers, many trans men desire deeply to be biological fathers... Though neither really can. Are we on the same page there now?

-I am not saying that gay and lesbian folk can't have children in a manner that is "correct" by their gender identity. Though on the other hand most gay and lesbian folk are cisgender, so that's a moot point. Many trans folk, however: would rather not have children, than live a lie to biologically produce children with a spouse... Especially when that spouse wouldn't support them if they found out about the first parties transgender identity. For many that's their only option though, because they want to transition fully and that will make them infertile. Does that make sense now? I also know there are many options for having children, including surrogates which many can't afford, freezing sperm and eggs which again many can't afford, or adopting which leaves many feeling unfulfilled. When it comes down to a choice of cost, if a trans person can afford to have kids, or transition, they're likely to choose the latter, because it allows them to live in their own skin with less, if any personal pain.

-You didn't say disability, you said crippled. There is a difference between the two. Another wise able bodied person isn't really less able bodied because of infertility. Reproduction is not the only way humans can leave a lasting legacy for future generations. A lot of people choose not to reproduce, regardless of sexuality and gender identity. Are they mentally ill, or otherwise disabled? I know you didn't say, or imply that last part, but I'd really like to know.

-You're holding up of a bit of a double standard. Trans folk are expected to be everyone's private teacher on trans issues, or we're the target of their irrational hatreds of us... Then we have to put up with other people's opinions on how us having a variant gender identity makes us wrong, or lesser people. Can you see why that gets on my nerves, especially considering how I'm constantly exposed to it because I'm trans? I pass too. I'm small and feminine and most people never clock me as trans. Yet every time I here someone make an assumption about trans folk, or say something transphobic, it hits me really fucking deeply. Especially because I have so many friends who have been physically hurt and sexually assaulted for being trans. Is it any wonder I get really raw on this subject?

Anyways I tried to construct that post as calmly and clearly as possible. The reason I ask for understanding and compassion, is because I'd like you to let go of the notion that trans folk are some how mentally ill, or crippled. Saying such things around trans folk registers as a personal attack on our identities and the lengths we have to go through to live happily and comfortably.

 

[Gengisgame]

You've had Dr Paul McHugh call it a mental disorder and you've had others claim it isn't, like most LGBT issues it's politically charged so always take findings with a grain of salt.

McHugh has been discredited in the field of LGBTQ issues for decades. Among other things, he has engaged with NARTH, a gay conversion therapy group, many times in the past.

and who do we credit now in this climate?

A simple point to make is if I came out with research saying that gays make better parents it would probably be widely published by many newspapers with a lot of pats on the back.

If I came out with research that showed they made bad parents I'm in for a world of shit.

Sad to say I would trust the Chinese more to do the research and it's not like they are without bias

Discredited and actually finding fault are 2 different things, you mentioned gays in conversion therapy killing themselves? why, that is a separate psychological issue, but related to the point above if someone actually converted people successfully or just made the claim they would be in a world of shit. On a related issue the number of post-op trans committing suicide is incredibly high.

If you can actually see the connection between the 2 maybe you don't always give people what they say they want and at minimum allow proper research and remove politics.

 

[Leg End]

I would say less that and more "My mother is an Peoples Deputy (a member of a local parliament) so I can do whatever and you can't do shit about it".

Oh that's totally different then. If it happened around the same time then that totally went to their head. Power corrupts.

But yea - I maybe just had a bad experience with these people. Hope to God I'll never see someone like that again.

Never let the lemon sour you to the fruits that aren't lemons.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Like I said - I saw only one 100% transsexual person in my life. A guy from my University group that made our group a local internet sensation, because he was dressing like a parrot, at first was wearing and coming in public places only in female lingerie (which is considered nudity in my country), made nude selfies and encouraged to other to photo him in classes and considered himself to be a savant of modern singing and literature. That and he was trying to encourage others to do the same with a persistence of a cult preacher.
He lasted only for a year after which he left the Uni and was never heard from again. As you can imagine - the experience was not pleasant.
I (of course) don't say that every one of them are like that. And if they don't act like retarded - they can do whatever they want. Just don't expect me to threat you any differently than I would others just because you're consider yourself to be whatever you believe in. Than again - I come from a traditional country, from a traditional family and from a country with moral values different from the West, so what do I know.

First I'd like to ask, did this person identify themselves as male, or female? Because if they identified as male and dressed female, that's a cross dresser, or in the case of performances like that a drag queen. Drag performers and cross dressers are not transgender. If they were born male and presented and identified as female, then please use female pronouns for that person, if only for the sake of the rest of us trans folk on these forums. Misgendering is a serious problem we face, which is used to devalue and invalidate our identities, in an attempt to force us to conform to gender norms.

Also I often wear a trans pride flag scarf, or a trans pride symbol as jewelery:

Spoiler: Trans pride flag with trans pride symbol

I don't do that to force being trans as being better, I do it out of pride for something society tells me to be ashamed of. That I am different and there is nothing wrong with that. I also wear such things because it makes me a beacon for other trans folk, allies, and it allows me to start conversations with cisgender folk who are ignorant. Some times that does end up with me storming off in anger, but as my parents made me take martial arts, anyone whose ever tried to assault me for it has been very sorry.

Back to that person in your university: They were quite a bit of an asshole, but that's not something restricted to trans folk.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I hope you don't mind, but I think I'll focus on the first question until we can hash it out, then see if we can't get back to the other matters, since I feel exploring this area may take quite a bit of text in and of itself.

- You avoided the whole question. I asked if you woke up suddenly one morning as the wrong gender, wouldn't that upset you? I didn't talk magic, I didn't talk surgery... I said if you woke up one morning the wrong gender, you'd find that distressing. Right?

Not trying to avoid the question, but I just don't see it. How would one gender or the other be right or wrong? Why would I be distressed? Why should I be distressed?

As in suddenly you woke up and your gender identity didn't match your physical sex.

How do I know it matches my physical sex now?

If you were changed sexes by magic, this would apply, because it wouldn't alter your mind, thus you'd still identify the same as before. So don't dodge the question. Gender identity, cis and trans, are deeply laid in the foundations of our personality.

I'd say identity is deeply laid in the foundations of our personality. But I think labels like gender, cis, and trans are externally applied as a result of what others think is right or wrong.

----

The thought occurs to me that I may not be understanding this due to being Asexual. But I don't like the idea of unobtainable comprehension.[/quote]

Well I'm asexual, even though I identify as female, because sexual preference, or lack there of, isn't related to gender identity. What I'm saying is... Assume you're male, that's how you identify, but you woke up with a woman's body and your brain said "THIS IS WRONG!!!!" Wouldn't you find that deeply disturbing and saddening? That's how people with gender identities opposite our biological sexes feel.

Now you said asexual... Do you mean that as you identify as neither gender? If so then you'd be agender, not asexual. Asexuals are people who don't care for sexual relations, or out right hate them, while agender means one identifies as neither gender.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I just can't put myself in that position. I am male, but if I was female, I don't think it would really matter to me, because my mind is the only thing that really matters to me, and you said that's not changing.

My mind though...if something happened to cause me brain damage, that would change who I was on the inside, I've told people I know to kill me, because I'm already dead, and whoever it is behind the controls isn't me.

Well if you don't mind my saying, that sounds about as genderfluid as it gets, in which case I envy you. I've put a lot of time and energy into transitioning, because my biological sex is opposite my female gender identity. Still if your body changing to the opposite sex doesn't bother you, that's somewhere in the realm of genderfluid, genderqueer, androgynous, agender, or non-binary, which is in the trans spectrum. Gender identity is weird and can be hard to pin down, it can also shift... I used to identify as trans feminine bigender, but, well, that didn't fit. Non-op trans woman seems about right for me as it stands.

I kinda wish you hadn't made that comparison, even as indirectly as you did. Transgenderism is not brain damage. Still I understand, but I know people who have brain damage, all of the ones I know basically have the same personality as before, but they all had frontal lobe damage... So the ones I know have less emotional control. If that was my brain damage, I'd solider it out, but anything else, I'd want to be dead.

I mean I'm not concerned with sex. Sex is generally unappealing to me, which is unfortunate because I am otherwise romantically inclined, but considering how important sex is to a lot of people, it makes the likelihood of a lasting relationship very unlikely for me. I'd rather not waste someone's time in that case.

As for what gender I am, I honestly couldn't tell you.

I know the feeling, sex is really unappealing to me too... I'd still do it with a partner, but as I have ED from orchi and HRT, I am really limited to the female position, or use of toys. I'm panromantic too, as in gender and sex in any combination, doesn't matter to whom I want to be with. But yeah, being ace makes long term relationships a big question mark.

Well there's nothing wrong with not being able to gender yourself accurately. You may later find a definition that fits how you feel. Still nothing is wrong with just not having defined such a state, or just questioning it. Still if you don't have the dysphoria that most trans folk have, you're really lucky.

 

[Chairman Miaow]

Wow, that's a hot load of clickbait, devoid of anything like support. You're also not being subtle with your digs here, or what you want out of this. Which is a fight, not an "Off topic discussion".

And people accused me of shitposting in GGG!

What digs? Practically every other sentence is talking about people identifying as transgender not being bullied or treated other than equal

Because the entire OP can be summed up with "I don't mean to be insulting/offensive/demeaning towards trans people, I just want to ask extremely insulting, offensive and demeaning questions about them that have already been fully addressed by the medical community (with the exception of a small handful of agenda-pushing conservative quacks) with a resounding "NO"!"

Which part is insulting or demeaning?

 

[Thaluikhain]

Wow, that's a hot load of clickbait, devoid of anything like support. You're also not being subtle with your digs here, or what you want out of this. Which is a fight, not an "Off topic discussion".

And people accused me of shitposting in GGG!

What digs? Practically every other sentence is talking about people identifying as transgender not being bullied or treated other than equal

Because the entire OP can be summed up with "I don't mean to be insulting/offensive/demeaning towards trans people, I just want to ask extremely insulting, offensive and demeaning questions about them that have already been fully addressed by the medical community (with the exception of a small handful of agenda-pushing conservative quacks) with a resounding "NO"!"

Which part is insulting or demeaning?

If I was to ask you "Are you are *bat hingbad thing here*?", I'm not insulting or demeaning you, but I am insulting and demeaning you. Especially if it's something used to attack you or your group often in the past.

EDIT: "Bad thing", not "bat hing".