Are we communists?!

[emeraldrafael]

I live in the US and as long as youre tasteful about it (no I dont know how you do that) you can have swastikas on your person. There's a guy at a computer fixing store I know who has a tattoo of his skin ripping, musccle showing, and the swastika across it (which always freaks me out cause he knows Im part Polish and alot of people seem to think Im Jewish). I've even seen someone who wore a complete red hoodie with a giant black swastika on it on the back with The National Socialist on the top and German Workers' Party on the bottom. at first people got upset (even though none of them really should have), then he said he agreed with the politcal ideology.

In all honesty, he does. he doesnt support genocides of any kind.

 

[teebeeohh]

because hammer and sickle represent communism, which is a great concept that would never work because marx didn't account for people being...well people.

 

[Del-Toro]

Same reason you can wear Che Guevara shirts. That guy basically ruined Cuba, was involved in countless bloody revolutions, yet he's seen by many as a hero, a goddamn freedom fighter.

He was a freedom fighter. The regimes he fought were authoritarian ones that suppressed their people so it'd be hard to argue that the fundamental aim of the revolutions was wrong.

Ah yes, a man who executed civilians, soldiers and police officers alike without giving them any form of trial. Yup, sounds like a good guy to me.

It matters not wether or not he was fighting for a right cause or not. It's like saying, well. Hitler did well making Germany a fascist nation cause he put Germany back on the map. But hey, the end justifies the means, right?

Apparently he was also a coward who fled the field and let his men do all the work. It really doesn't matter at all what one claims to be about or what you say your overall goals are. That's just talk. Actions speak louder than words, and if you speak of freedom, equality and all those other nice sounding disembodied concepts while your relish and use of firing squads are both very liberal and very tangible, then all the nice sounding words are is vocabulary.

Besides, he helped replace an authoritarian regime (pay your fucking taxes and follow the fucking rules and we won't have a problem) with a totalitarian (we own your ass now, *****) one. Yeah, gotta love all that freedom. If you wanted to make the arguement that he was about economic equality and not freedom, then go ahead and do so, but don't call him a freedom-fighter.

 

[JasonKaotic]

If I'm not mistaken, the Nazis were considerably more brutal in what they did than the USSR. But I don't know that much about what Stalin did, so I may be wrong.

 

[JambalayaBob]

Probably because the swastika is pretty much a symbol for antisemitism.

Stalin killed millions of Russians, but I don't think their race/religion had anything to do with it (correct me if I'm wrong).

Yeah, it's not like the swastika was used outside of the Nazi party for thousands of years or anything!

 

[ultimateownage]

The Hammer and Sickle isn't specifically Stalin's sign, but the Swastica is mostly related to Hitler.

 

[szs0061]

i know this has probably already been pointed out, but the swastika is actually just a symbol of good luck that has become associated with the nazis so i dont really see why people hate it so much unless its used specifically if reference to them

 

[peruvianskys]

Do to nobody doing what needed to be done for the survival of Russia, communism almost killed it, but Stalin's actions arguably saved the country, prevented the people from starving to death, and ultimatly resulted in Russia becoming a world power.

But Stalin manufactured those problems himself by adopting a terrible economic policy. Life in Czarist Russia was terrible, but it became worse under the communist regime. You can't set a house on fire and then claim that you "did what needed to be done" to save the people inside and then claim yourself a hero. Stalin (and Lenin) fucked up Russia; you can't take credit for causing a giant problem and then fixing maybe 10% of it.

See, the differance is that Hitler was killing people off largely because he didn't like them and they didn't fit in with his plans for a "master race" of blonde-haired, blue-eyed, psionic giants governed by Thulian occult principles. Stalin in comparison did it to save his country, and he was not wrong, and it actually succeeded.

This is factually incorrect. Stalin intentionally starved ethnic Ukrainian and Caucasian communities, not to mention his pogroms against the Jews. Where are you getting your history? He didn't save his country - The USSR failed from the beginning and tens of millions of people died because of his policies! Now Russia is wracked with poverty and corruption and political cronyism and you can trace that directly back to Stalin and his destructive policies that crippled Soviet infrastructure and economy.

Interestingly as much as I disagree with the central principles of communism, and socialism, I can respect Stalin, and feel he's a good example of why sometimes you DO need to wipe out millions of people for the greater good (and despite left wing propaganda, greater good DID come of this, with far more people benefitting in the long run).

As they say, the devil is in the details, WHY you do something like this, and how it turns out mean more than the act itself. Nobody likes mass murder, but Stalin saved a country and turned it into a superpower (and it's still a world power even if it's not a superpower), there was literally nothing else that would have worked since nobody was willingly going to endure going back to being a farmer or doing backbreaking labour, and the people were fanatical at the time about NOT having to do that, as that was what they fought for during the communist takeover.

This is just factually incorrect. Under no measurement was life improved for the majority under communism; life was improved for Stalin and his cronies, but the average Russian was far worse off - and the average Ukrainian or Jew was dead! You're right that it may be necessary to kill millions to make communism work (in fact, I'd agree), but that doesn't mean someone is heroic for doing so. If I had a system where we powered our cars with the ashes of babies, would I be heroic for killing enough children to make it possible? No, I'd be a tyrant and a mass murderer for pursuing the system in the first place.

in a capitalist system you wind up with a
few greedy arseholes who ruin it for everyone else and wind up controlling most of the wealth and using it to ultimatly prevent the competition the society is based on. There is no perfect way of doing things.

No, in Stalinism you end up with a few greedy assholes controlling most of the wealth and using it to murder the ethnicities they don't like.

This is getting further away from the subject of Stalin... but I'm explaining it so you can understand the differances between him and Hitler or say Pol Pot. Why he killed the people and what the results were matters more than the number of people he actually killed. Even if I don't care for his idealogy, he is kind of heroic for stomaching this and doing what needed to be done, even if it was horrible. That's where the "Steel Angel" name comes from apparently.

Stalin's mass murder did not "need to be done." Stalin pursued a terrible authoritarian despotism and murdered millions to make sure he stayed in power, fucking Russia over in the meanwhile. Stalin was not a hero, he was a murderer, probably "worse" than Hitler, although comparisons like that are hard to make.

As for the OP, I agree completely. Communism and fascism are both blood-stained and terrible ideologies that are should be equally demonized. I hate Nazis and I hate communists and neither disgusting symbol should be tolerated. I'm all for socialism and I'm all for capitalism but parading around the icons of their tyrannical authoritarian permutations is simply unacceptable.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

i know this has probably already been pointed out, but the swastika is actually just a symbol of good luck that has become associated with the nazis so i dont really see why people hate it so much unless its used specifically if reference to them

Unfortunately, the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (or the Nazis as we came to know them) co-opted the swastika so thoroughly in their symbolism and propaganda that its old meaning was all but lost. Fun fact, for comparison: The Romans crucified plenty of people before Jesus, but now the cross symbolizes Jesus's death. Probably not very comforting to everyone else who died of thirst, blood loss or exposure while nailed to two thick pieces of wood.

 

[The-Epicly-Named-Man]

Nazis= genocide.
Soviets (who were more fascist than communist by the way)= war, espionage and press control.

Overall, I think people who are cool with mass murder based on race are a lot more f*cked up than people who just think that Soviet propaganda produced a lot cool imagery.

 

[JambalayaBob]

As for the OP, I agree completely. Communism and fascism are both blood-stained and terrible ideologies that are should be equally demonized. I hate Nazis and I hate communists and neither disgusting symbol should be tolerated. I'm all for socialism and I'm all for capitalism but parading around the icons of their tyrannical authoritarian permutations is simply unacceptable.

Communism has some good ideas in it, it's moronic to discredit it completely. A pure capitalist system is no better than a pure socialist system. A mix of both is necessary, and the only reason we don't think that radical capitalism is as bad as radical socialism is because we live in a capitalist society. Plus, for a few people to be in charge in a capitalist system, it's necessary to fool everyone into thinking that those few aren't in charge for a while.

I agree with pretty much everything else you said though.

 

[szs0061]

As for the OP, I agree completely. Communism and fascism are both blood-stained and terrible ideologies that are should be equally demonized. I hate Nazis and I hate communists and neither disgusting symbol should be tolerated. I'm all for socialism and I'm all for capitalism but parading around the icons of their tyrannical authoritarian permutations is simply unacceptable.

no no no you cannot decide that an entire political philosophy is evil simply because there once was a terrible person who led it hitler was evil, stalin was evil, communism and fascism just are. also just to play devils advocate, can we really say hitler is evil for doing what he believed to be right? if he had won and you had been taught your whole life that jews were terrible and he was a hero youd believe it so can you really just decide hes evil? right and wrong are entirely relative ideas when it comes to morals

 

[JambalayaBob]

i know this has probably already been pointed out, but the swastika is actually just a symbol of good luck that has become associated with the nazis so i dont really see why people hate it so much unless its used specifically if reference to them

Unfortunately, the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (or the Nazis as we came to know them) co-opted the swastika so thoroughly in their symbolism and propaganda that its old meaning was all but lost. Fun fact, for comparison: The Romans crucified plenty of people before Jesus, but now the cross symbolizes Jesus's death. Probably not very comforting to everyone else who died of thirst, blood loss or exposure while nailed to two thick pieces of wood.

The swastika is only viewed in such light in western society. Asians and Indians commonly use the swastika for as many purposes as any other symbol. We shouldn't be so damn worried about a stupid symbol over 65 years after one group used it.

 

[AnarchistFish]

.

Besides, he helped replace an authoritarian regime (pay your fucking taxes and follow the fucking rules and we won't have a problem) with a totalitarian (we own your ass now, *****) one. Yeah, gotta love all that freedom. If you wanted to make the arguement that he was about economic equality and not freedom, then go ahead and do so, but don't call him a freedom-fighter.

Are none of you listening?? If he wasn't involved in the post-revolutionary governments then I don't see why he should be scapegoated without evidence that that was his actual intention.

 

[SteewpidZombie]

Fun Fact: After Russia switced to Democracy, the country has become nationally poorer, and they can barely fund/pay their military properly (a sad truth is that even some of their generals will take common jobs just to get by). Thus in recent years the idea of Communism is returning to Russia. Now Communism isn't a bad thing for Russia, it's simply that when they tried to switch to Democracy, it wasn't over a slow period of time where the economy/people could adjust, it was an immediate and total overhaul that caused more problems than solved. So basically Russia may revert to a communist country in the near future (their most popular 'President/Presidential Candidate' is Putin, and he is Pro-Communist/Bad-Ass who makes Teddy Roosevelt and Chuck Norris look like small children. XD

 

[Beliyal]

One strange thing about the equilateral cross (swastika) is that to this day nobody knows where it truly originated. Some say it's simply St. George's cross with each end given a bent foot. Or it could be a simplified version of the Phoenician Sunwheel. Each arm (&#915 in the symbol represents a letter in the Greek alphabet (in this case 'gamma'), which is itself derived from a letter in the Phoenician one (gimel). The pre-christian Anglo-Saxons, Druids and Celts all claim to have made it too. It persists in present-day India as a universally holy symbol. It's been drawn throughout China, Syria, France, Israel, and even North America (Yes, the one before white people came).

Sadly, most just see it and think supremecist/neo-Nazi. It's history is much more complex.

I'll let someone else field the hammer and sickle.

I see you're interested in the swastika symbol; I am too. It's such a great symbol, not only because of what it represents (not in Nazi context), but because it is extremely old and almost completely the same in all cultures throughout the globe. It pre-dates antiquity and the metal ages; swastika symbols have been found on neolithic pottery in Europe, which makes it older than written history (there's also one from palaeolithic Ukraine [http://books.google.com/books?id=oq-xLPfgvJ4C&lpg=PA74&pg=PA117#v=onepage&q&f=false]). I'm really saddened that it became a symbol of hate, racism, war and mass murder, and I'm especially saddened when people don't even know the origin.

Because the Swastika originated in Asia, among people who were neither aryan nor Christian.

We can't be sure it's from Asia, as the oldest one currently known is not really from Asia (I put the link above), and the oldest Asian depiction is much more younger than the ones from Europe. But whether it is from Asia or somewhere else, yes, the symbol was used and abused and is now fixed as the symbol of everything horrible, sadly.

 

[The Unworthy Gentleman]

It's a 100% Russian symbol; they invented it, they used it. It was only later adopted by other communist nations and movements.
And no, the Soviets were true communists if you define "communist" as following the teachings Marx and Engels outlined, with the only difference being that Lenin thought a violent revolution was the way to go while Marx thought it should be the last possible means.

The soviets were far from true communists, they were far closer to communism than fascism but they weren't true communists. True communists don't butcher people based of ethnicity. True communists don't have people shot because they want to maintain power. True communists don't force rank when you call them comrade. It's comrade for everyone, not comrade commissar - comrade.

They weren't true communists, they were a bastardisation of communism.

OT: No, that doesn't make everyone communists. The hammer and sickle symbol has come to be the universal symbol for communism, despite it being a Bolshevik one to begin with. Besides, like I said, Stalin's interpretation of communism was a horrific one. I'm a strong advocate of communism and I think he's an abomination of a man. Definitely one of the worst things to ever happen to communism.

 

[Strazdas]

everyone in the world knows the swastika as the sign of the Nazi Party

Actually no. europe and america does. In the east (india, china) swastica is acutaly a sybol of luck. its very common to see swastica engraved on doorstep wishing the house luck and so on. Swastika is actually the first "cross" symbol in existance and is found as far back as paleolith drawings.

As for the laws and hate - russians didnt loose the war, so thats why their evil deeds are "ignored". winners write history.

 

[need4snacks]

I honestly don't know. Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union were both terrible countries that don't deserve any praise.

 

[Warforger]

Because Nazism is all about hate and Eugenics, Communism is all about equality.

The USSR were closer to fascism than communism, they weren't a properly socialist society. The hammer and sickle represents communism, not the USSR, whereas the swastika specifically represents the Nazis (in this context).

Nope the USSR was the most Communist country ever. The Fascist control is possible in it and would be supported by Marx's sentiment.