Are we ready for games starring queer/trans heroes? Mainstream and Indie

[Fireaxe]

There are TV shows starring gay characters, I don't see why games would be different.

With that said, don't expect it out of the Triple A shooter conveyor belt any time soon; the Triple A shooter is primarily aimed at the largest demographic for games which is heterosexual white men with disposable income.

 

[Netrigan]

Is gaming ready or are Social Justice Warriors ready to deal with it.

Social justice warriors? Deal with something...you mean like, get off their asses in order to take the time and effort needed to create a whole new and possibly interesting bunch of video games instead of just bitching at people to do it for them?

My sides. My fucking sides.

No I mean ready to accept something being progressive and actually doing the thing they've been calling for without them kicking up a storm because it's not "the right kind" of gay main character or some such crap they'd come out with.

Seriously as someone who saw the shitstorm in the greenlight page for "My Ex Boyfriend the Space Tyrant" it was shocking how many SJWs were objecting to the game for not being "the right kind of gay"

I think you end up focusing way too much on what are usually a very tiny minority of people.

Such as, right now I'm taking a break from a marathon viewing of Transparent, which is generally regarded as a very honest look into the struggles of the transgendered. In the "not done right" criticism, there's the matter of Jeffrey Tambor being cast as the lead actress.

Said criticism is accepted by the makers of the show, who have also gone to considerable effort to avoid a lot of the pitfalls of such a story by hiring transsexual advisers, casting several transsexual actors, and hiring transsexuals behind the scenes. For the most part, this off-sets the problems many have with Tambor's casting; but I'm sure there's folks out there which simply cannot overlook it.

Or your example. One thing which struck me about your description is you were comparing it to Leisure Suit Larry, a game which has received a metric ton of criticism. It's not terribly surprising that the gay version of such a game also receives its fair share of criticism, especially as the gay community does not move in lock-step. Gay Pride Parades get criticized by more conservative elements in the community who aren't comfortable with the parade celebrating the more decadent aspects of the gay community, especially as many of them are actively fighting against such stereotypes.

 

[Jake Martinez]

Are we ready starring queer/trans heroes?
Can a game star the cross-dresser, the transgender, the overtly gay lead and be accepted?
Could it cause an uproar of mass proportions.

Uh... already done by AAA games?
Yes.
No.

If people want to make a game with whatever content, so long as it's good, someone who likes that content will buy it.

I feel somewhat however that a lot of concern here is about being able to make the games that people want to make, but instead wanting self validation and acceptance "by the masses". It's not enough, for instance, for a game like Gone Home to focus around a lesbian love story that may appeal and resonate to some people, it also has to be "the game of the year, 10/10" when it's clearly not.

Hell a great deal of the ire surrounding GamerGate can be traced back to journalists pushing the above view because they feel very strongly about the "importance" of the game content and what it means politically, regardless of the fact that Gone Home is basically a fairly poorly written story filled with unappealing tropes and zero gameplay. As a piece of story telling I'm sure it means something to some people, particularly ones that may find the entire concept of "Romeo and Juliet but Gay" intellectually appealing, but a lot of us are frankly just over the entire novelty of homosexuality. If I want a gay love story, I'll load up Dragon Age and indulge myself both in that as well as compelling game play.

I'm making a game right now with very controversial subject matter. I know exactly who is going to be upset at it and what they are going to say and I'm already giggling at myself because of all of the subtle digs I'm putting at them in the content. This is my artistic expression, or my rights as a creator, correct?

Basically what I am saying is that people have a right to make what they want. It doesn't have to be well received to be valid and if a game is terrible, confusing that type of criticism as non-acceptance of the subject matter by society is just facile. Particularly when it comes to homosexuality - I mean, really, do any of you guys frequent /v/ ? Do you know how gay that board is? You can barely go a page without seeing shemale porn.

It's things like this that make me realize the people complaining the loudest about the "gamer" demographic are the ones engaging in dehumanizing stereotypes. It'd almost be laughable if it wasn't just so mindbogglingly stupid.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

A few more trans characters would be nice. A lot more would be even better. Though I think the game I maybe want to see more is the game that puts the player in the shoes of a trans person. Is that possible? Can we make a game to invoke the feelings of gender dysmorphia? And you know should we?

 

[somonels]

I'd feel sick and victimized if I had to do that, like whatever the special people feel being forced to act not-so-special. I feel lesbian and I deserve to be treated to suitable content. *Heavy breathing*

 

[Requia]

If AAA publishers suspect they will have one fewer sale for doing it than not doing it: No, At least not mainstream (though that assumes prebuilt character arcs, they've been getting away with being *optionally* gay for a while, same as optionally a woman).

Indie devs should be able to get away with it already, though as far as I can tell (and I'm wide open to counter examples!) nobody has actually tried it in a manner that didn't basically expect success just from doing it, regardless of if they did it well or not.

 

[Netrigan]

I think you end up focusing way too much on what are usually a very tiny minority of people.

Such as, right now I'm taking a break from a marathon viewing of Transparent, which is generally regarded as a very honest look into the struggles of the transgendered. In the "not done right" criticism, there's the matter of Jeffrey Tambor being cast as the lead actress.

Said criticism is accepted by the makers of the show, who have also gone to considerable effort to avoid a lot of the pitfalls of such a story by hiring transsexual advisers, casting several transsexual actors, and hiring transsexuals behind the scenes. For the most part, this off-sets the problems many have with Tambor's casting; but I'm sure there's folks out there which simply cannot overlook it.

Or your example. One thing which struck me about your description is you were comparing it to Leisure Suit Larry, a game which has received a metric ton of criticism. It's not terribly surprising that the gay version of such a game also receives its fair share of criticism, especially as the gay community does not move in lock-step. Gay Pride Parades get criticized by more conservative elements in the community who aren't comfortable with the parade celebrating the more decadent aspects of the gay community, especially as many of them are actively fighting against such stereotypes.

That's half the problem recently though seemingly. It may be a minority but they're damn vocal and often those who enjoy something or have no issue don't say much so all the developer hears is the negative stuff.

It's half the problem with the push for more female protagonists. They're judged so harshly and there's so little room for what will be agreed upon as good. Just watch Anita's upcoming videos "fighting fuck toy" and "man with boobs" will just cut actual diverse female characters out of being allowed (because yeh how dare a women be both a women and muscular and strong right ?)

Not ever being seen to be doing anything right makes companies simply go "fuck it we won't bother at all then"

They get a lot of praise when they do a good job. Just about everyone loves Ellie from The Last Of Us, including lots of feminist sources. You have to go out of your way to find the folks criticizing the character.

It's there, it's always there.

Let's say we were talking about Gamers. No matter how well-received a game is, there's always a fair number of folks who will ***** and moan about it... and often for the dumbest reasons. Should we hold their opinion up as representing the fans... or should we accept there's always going to be some killjoys running around making a huge ass deal about nothing? I'm a Doctor Who fan who thinks the current season is the best the new show has ever been... and every week (as has been the case since 2005) I can count on a handful of people declaring the show to be the worst it's ever been and continuing to get worse every week.

There's always some folks swimming against the current of popular opinion. Some have interesting reasons for doing so, others are just bitter cranks.

 

[Pink Gregory]

Depends how relevant in the context of the game it is.

Make it a good game and I will play anything. I don't think anything like Gone Home is irrelevant as a game, and I don't really care what reviewers said about it, positive or negative, until I experience it myself. Apart from going in knowing what it is.

Though I'd like to see both kinds. Games that explore those themes, and games that have those characters but aren't prioritising exploring it. Because isn't being able to identify as something and then just go about your business unmolested the hallmark of equality?

 

[Adam Lester]

Tatsuya Suou from Persona 2, like Shepard in ME, can be made gay. And he's the main character of Innocent Sin.

Yeah...that's not going to happen. Maybe with people who express concerns about these topics that get labeled as SJWs', but the breed that everyone knows and loves isn't called "The outrage culture" for nothing. It's best to just mock them without restraint or ignore them like you would any other hate group, because there's no way in hell you'll make them happy. Their opinions don't matter because the only opinions they have are the ones that get them sympathy or attention.

 

[Sigmund Av Volsung]

Yes, but it will all be for moot if they're not interesting characters!

That's what matters; you could have a game populated by David Bowies, but unless they have depth to their persona, it won't matter! Which is kind of a problem right now, because the quality of writing in games still has a loooooong way to go!

 

[cannonfodder666]

Personally I don't care what gender/sexual and or political orientation a character is. As long as the character is well written/fully fleshed out and not a stereotype, and integral to the story (not filling a checklist quota). Then am ok with anything.

 

[EHKOS]

Not going to go through the other three pages, if it was brought up, good, I'm bad at explaining shit. But there was a JRPG for the PS3 called Enchanted Arms that had a party member that was basically what you described.

 

[RaikuFA]

Tatsuya Suou from Persona 2, like Shepard in ME, can be made gay. And he's the main character of Innocent Sin.

Yeah...that's not going to happen. Maybe with people who express concerns about these topics that get labeled as SJWs', but the breed that everyone knows and loves isn't called "The outrage culture" for nothing. It's best to just mock them without restraint or ignore them like you would any other hate group, because there's no way in hell you'll make them happy. Their opinions don't matter because the only opinions they have are the ones that get them sympathy or attention.

I think you quoted the wrong person.

 

[Adam Lester]

Tatsuya Suou from Persona 2, like Shepard in ME, can be made gay. And he's the main character of Innocent Sin.

Yeah...that's not going to happen. Maybe with people who express concerns about these topics that get labeled as SJWs', but the breed that everyone knows and loves isn't called "The outrage culture" for nothing. It's best to just mock them without restraint or ignore them like you would any other hate group, because there's no way in hell you'll make them happy. Their opinions don't matter because the only opinions they have are the ones that get them sympathy or attention.

I think you quoted the wrong person.

You would be thinking correctly. Though I did get a good cackle out of my own mistake.

 

[ObserverStatus]

Indies can get away with just about anything since they have very little exposure to the public eye, but a AAA game? I can see a big budget game put a gay character (not a player created one) as the PC, but it would definitely come under fire by conservative news outlets. I don't see them getting away with a trans PC anytime soon, however.

Wait, what? Some companies would love that kind of publicity. Ever since Fox News covered Mass Effect, EA has been doing its damndest to troll a similar response out of them. Remember that time they payed people to pretend to be conservative Christians and protest against Dante's Inferno?

 

[Wilco86]

Cough cough Persona 4.
I mean, sure, The MC himself couldn't be gay, unfortunately, but it starred both a potentially gay teenager and a possibly trans detective, depending on how you interpret the goings on.

Persona 2: Innocent Sin was already brought up, but I'd like to also add that it featured one definitely gay character that also happens to be one of the most powerful humans in the Persona series, and also essential (the character, that is - not his sexual orientation) to the whole plot of the game. (I liked Kanji in P4, but the game's main plot wouldn't fall apart like a house of cards without him.)

Of the newer games, I really didn't like the new Thief, but the character of Madame Xiao-Xiao was great: a drag brothel owner that protected his working girls and - excuse my phrasing - had the balls to stand against one of the main villains of the game. Yep, I'm certain I could play a game with a lead character like him.

 

[Reasonable Atheist]

I Think there is many many many games where the sexual identity of the protagonist is not even portrayed, you could make the argument that by default they are portrayed as straight then, but that would be silly and fishing for conflict. So, just like for a hypothetical here, we are not counting rpg games where you CHOOSE your character's relationships and traits? lets add to that games that do not portray sexuality at all. What percentage of games are we then left with? and what portion of that even smaller slice of the pie should be queer/trans?

I still feel that the only thing that really matters is the quality of the game itself, but come on, how many more purchases are you going to get for pandering to that small community over pandering to the majority? I say it all to often, but the only thing that matters here is money.

 

[Artaneius]

I think the key element, as a brilliant author once wrote, is that "Normalcy is a majority concept, the standard of many and not the concept of just one man".
Considering that trans is a far more recent phenomenon - for obvious technical reasons - than homosexuality, and considering the proportion of the global population directly involved is smaller, I'd say gay protagonists will be more easily accepted - or less vehemently bashed. Case in point, we already have main characters having homosexual romances available in RPGs since a few years. Acceptance takes time, and for most people requires familiarity.
Obviously, indie games have more specific demographics and it'll be far easier there, without risking backlash from intended player-base.

Then, for me, it all depends on the setting, for instance if you use a historical context - far trickier to have gay characters in a society that violently represses them, but having characters with obvious homosexual leanings wouldn't be a problem in Ancient Greece (assuming the devs understand the whole context was quite different from 2014 Western countries). Historical setting, apart from the last few decades, makes it practically impossible to have trans characters - unless there's some divine intervention behind it; in a fantasy context, it might work without trouble, and of course if it's a futuristic / sci-fi setting, then anything goes.
But that part was about consistency, historical consistency or consistency within your invented worl, and not acceptance - because that's for me a far more crucial element when judging if a game/story makes sense.

Homosexuality has been in Western RPGS since the 80s and 90s with Ultima and Baldurs Gate. Not recently. Please gets facts straight before preaching.