Are Women Tournaments Sexist?

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

I don't get how the "videogame tournaments of pro levels, where for people to participate there needs to be a welcoming atmosphere" thing applies here.

If women are participating, they've long entered the "boys club" and they've stayed there long enough to get good so they don't need to be welcomed-to any more, they're already in.

Are they saying women tournaments are somehow different than co-ed ones? In which way if so? All this seems to do is allow lesser players to feel accomplished when they're really not by creating an unique category with lower standards just for them.

What's wrong with that? We may not take such tournaments seriously, but if it makes them feel better anyway, why not?

Umm, isn't it obvious? Tournaments aren't things whose purpose is to make people feel good. Tournaments are competitions whose purpose is to show who's the best at something. In doing those "feel good tournaments" you diminish every other one, just by merely calling it a tournament.


This is like how they give every single kid a medal in sports nowadays so that they won't feel bad, they rob the meaning out of competition for the sake of people's feelings and they rob how good those who DO deserve a medal feel.


Is it too much to ask to treat women as people and believe they don't need to be specifically tended to? Remember, this isn't a "feel good tournament" even, women can still join the co-ed ones too, this is a scrub-enabling tournament which will actually keep women's collective skill levels down by making "good" a different, much lower level of skill compared to what is actually top level play.

I don't think this will reflect badly on all tournaments.
There are already local tournaments in every kind of competition and the skill levels aren't very high in backwaters, so what the fans do, is put alot more value on winning a bigger tournament over winning just a small local event.

The only real downside I can see is less competition, but the girls already made it clear they don't want to play with us, so there's not much to gain on that front.

I come from the fighting game spectrum, not DotA or SC or in general PC stuff and I actually do play with quite a few female players too so it's not really an "us" thing. This is why the idea of a woman-only tourny struck me as it did, since we don't have those in fighters and if you told any of my friends or my GF to go and huddle in their own little girl pool you'd get an uppercut to the jaw in 5 frames tops! XD




I think this system doesn't target those women, the ones relevant to competition. It doesn't target the ones who'd actually do much in a top-level tourney. It targets the lesser-skilled ones, allowing them to feign superior skill and just have an excuse to not actually TEST or PROVE it, due to the supposed sexism of the community. Now, to be fair, I don't know what goes in DotA but I do know fighting games and unlike what that dude who was in a REALITY SHOW did to that woman, it's mostly fun and positive and inclusive. The blazblue or guilty gear or persona communities have an actual large fanbase of women due to that.

 

[distortedreality]

DoTA 2 - compared to real life wars since 2012.

OT - not sexist. Let the women get out of the kitchen once in a while, couldn't hurt, right?


Oh......right. Back to the kitchen you go!

 

[lacktheknack]

No, it's not.

It's sexist if there's no "unisex" division. As long as women can play with men if they want to, there's no issue.

And if ANYONE makes a "that's what she said" joke...

I would counter that it is sexist so long as there is no Unisex division AND no male only division.

If they have no male only division then it is simply positive sexism to make it easier on the poor womenfolk.

Fair enough. Are there male-only tournaments?

 

[TehCookie]

-snip-

Last time I checked this topic was about a videogame competition. Not about the army, not physical sports, but sitting on their ass pressing buttons.

OT: As for the actual topic, while it is sexist I don't think it's a bad thing. If it gets more girls interested in going pro knowing they're not going to get harassed, I think that's good. Though if would be even better if pro gaming grew up and was actually professional where threats (even empty ones) and harassment is not acceptable. If they want to be taken seriously as a sport they should act respectful. If they want to insult people they should stay in their basement with their bros.

 

[Evil Smurf]

A tournament that only allows women IS INDEED sexist. There are no male only tournaments, not to be confused with tournaments with only males if there are no female competitors at that skill level competing.

....I thought about it and you are correct. How sad

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

Though if would be even better if pro gaming grew up and was actually professional where threats (even empty ones) and harassment is not acceptable. If they want to be taken seriously as a sport they should act respectful. If they want to insult people they should stay in their basement with their bros.

The only problem with this is, this happens across ALL sports, regardless of gender, shit talking happens all the time everywhere, it's hilarious when the mic get's too close in pro sports and you can really hear the juicy bits of what players are yelling at each other.

so yeah, just merely pointing out that this isn't some phenomenon related only to e-sports/gaming.

OT: While I fully support the fact they are trying to create a more welcoming and engaging community for females in gaming, it could be considered sexist..but that is clearly not their intentions i don't think so i'm not going to call it that.

 

[conmag9]

If an individual is up to the standard of whatever the tournament is, I'd say denying entry solely on the basis of gender is pretty sexist.

 

[maninahat]

I think it's just a holdover from real sports, probably coupled with an intent to get more women playing.

This. And to answer the question itself (is it sexist to have a woman's only session), yes and no. In a perfect world, having women only contests and no corresponding "men only contests" would be an unfair double standard. In the real world, it is necessary when fewer women play the game, or when women expect to be hassled for playing the game in the first place. Considering the kind of shit people say about women gamers at professional gigs, and the shitty representation of women in gaming in general, it is probably necessary.

 

[Chemical Alia]

Men are better in spatial coordination and have a better sense of direction (usually!). They excel in math and are great at interpreting three-dimensional objects. They have a better hand-eye coordination and more precise control of large muscle movement. They have poor peripheral vision but better sight in bright light and a better sense of perspective. Since they use one side of their brain more than the other, they tend to use the left side for verbal reasoning and the right for visual and emotional activities (if they are right handed).

Source: http://www.columbia.edu/itc/anthropology/v1007/jakabovics/mf2.html

Emphasis mine.

That theory does does sure seem interesting and relevant to a top down orthographic game played on a monitor that displays flat 2d images! This would also explain my shittiness at 3d modeling, what was I thinking with that pea brain of mine. I can't make heads or tails of what I see!

But anyway, it doesn't seem necessary, and it's not something I would choose to participate in unless it was a more casual setting just for fun (I tend to be competitive and I don't like to feel patronized) and to make women feel more welcome to playing the game. Don't really see what the big deal is, though.

You're taking offense where there is none to be had. Men and women are biologically different, although one gender isn't inherently superior to the other in a general sense.

The only thing I'm taking offense to is how incredibly stupid that explanation sounds, especially given how a game like Dota 2 has pretty much nothing whatsoever to do with spatial awareness.

And geez. I play video games with a bunch of friends, one of which someone who recently lost his actual ability to discern spatial depth, and it has no bearing at all on his ability to play Mario platformers or what have you. The TV screen doesn't even display real depth. 0:

 

[Zyst]

I don't like some of the bashing that has been going on, we're talking about video games people! Let's keep it civil please.

Anyhow, in a Q&A session in joindota Synderen (One of the captains who has made it twice to the International [the biggest DotA 2 competition, 1.6 million prize pool]) was asked about this situation of girls not being represented in Pro games. He said it was mostly a lack of a pool to pick from, when making a team you have to take in account many things (Most pro players specialize to some degree in certain roles, don't get me wrong, they can play ANYTHING and waaay better than average, they just excel at playing support/carry/Mid Ganker etc...) and he said "If there were more women at the top skill level that fit a role I needed in my team I wouldn't think twice about putting them on the team." (I'm paraphrasing here, that's not exactly what he said that was the message)

Again I've seen some very satisfying responses here, and it IS a bit sexist. The main competition is mixed gender, there's just a lack of women players at that bracket, then they add a female division so... some players feel good about playing at a lower skill level? What's the point? I've played a lot, my skill level is pretty high if I do say so myself and I have the privilege of getting matched with players from pro teams (EG|Fear, EG|Demon, Na'Vi Dendi among many others) and the average public game level I play at was even higher than the female competition, which brings the question why even bother streaming that? A powerful pro team shows you plays that really show you the skill ceiling because of tons of practice together besides their amazing skill as a player, however, when they name a "tournament" something lower than the usual pub level you obtain matching with 4 completely random players that's just disgraceful.

I think it's insulting to the tournaments and to women, it's like saying "Hey, you are not ready to play with the big boys but here's a consolation tourny" while some women players could really compete at a higher level.

 

[snekadid]

snip

Your very response is counter productive to your point.

The population is the exact reason a female only league is a bad idea. If the pop. is so low, then singling out a league for the minority pop. just makes the pool even smaller. You're less likely to see women in the "major league" while the woman only league will be small and have more difficulty achieving wide appeal.

There are male dominated fields and there are female dominated fields, and they are all taught the same to both sexes because the skills needed for each field are universally the same for both sexes with extremely minor deviations in a extremely small number of fields. The only fields I can think of that would have radically different training based on sex would be porn stars and religious occupations.

A main reason though is that "separate but equal" was found unconstitutional in all forms long ago because the only way for something to truly be equal would be to receive the exact same thing in which it is no longer separate<also if you're separating things then the chance for subpar treatment is easier to get away with>.

There is no reason to make separate leagues, gaming will always be a man state until women shoulder the uncomfortableness that is gaming's "boys club" and break into their own as professional gamers. This may seem harsh, but the same thing has happened countless times through history in chess, golf, pool, tennis..... and while the physical ones are separated<I will never know why pool has a womans league, its a mental game, not exceptionally poweress based>, there is no reason gaming should be separate.

 

[Vault101]

This is going to sound very bad and I expect I'll pick up some flak for it but I've yet to see a female be the #1 player at any video game. Now I'm not saying they don't exist at all but even expanding it further into the very top tiers, I really struggle to name any females at all. Good, certainly... but never great. Why is this?
.

because not as many women play competitive games

I think I read somewhere that men have better spatial reasoning overall, so I guess I can see why they would keep it different. Considering games are mostly spatial.

nope

even if there is truth in tht (which I'm not denying) I think its a BS reason to gender segrigate....I figured (as most people said) its more for social reasons

 

[Vault101]

I fail to understand why women don't trash talk back
You know, talking about small penis size and overcompensation
Mentioning him being mommas boy, whiny and annoying
Stuff like that- it can't be that hard to figure out ways to insult and humiliate back.
From my experience women are excellent at emotional violence, and trash talking isn't anything more than emotional violence.

I imagine some do.....

but anyway if they do they get labelled a "*****" or typecast as one of those overly agressive "gurl power!" types

I dont know..thease things are complicated

 

[Vault101]

Of course, men being better at these things in the end isn't a foregone conclusion...but that doesn't really matter, because the innate differences exist. My point was that women's gaming leagues exist for the same reason that they separate the genders in other sports. They're fundamentally different.

I dont think thats the real reason

and I dont think women should be denied the opertunity to play against guys, because the "brain" aspect is less cut and dry than the "physical muscles" aspect

 

[Tanakh]

For example 1 armor per 200 hp

Ahh, that sentence doesn't even makes sense... you mean that every point in armor is more or less as valuable as 200 hp? Because that would be completly wrong. Armor and armor reduction follow logaritmic growth formulas with soft Diminishing Returns, for example for a 1 armor Lucifer with 2k life getting a simple chainmail will be more or less equivalent of getting 400 life, but a platemail will be worth around 666, of course armor gets much better endgame, if that's what you are going for with your itemization. For it to be worth more or less 200 hp your hero must have 4k life and be facing a pure melee team.

If it was just "1 armor is 200 hp" then chainmail would be worth around 5 times what a vitality booster is throughout the game when taking into account the gold, and no one would ever buy a vitality booster which is obviously a stupid statement. As for the rest, well, i know you know every item is always situational, but for someone new it is not really simple, even for someone veteran as shown here.

OT: I think it's halfway between "affirmative action" and trying to reach a bigger audience by introducing pro girls.

About the level, I am good enough at DotA to realize you are probably better than me (by the info you have given about yourself in this thread) and to also know that in the international scene the Star League is a joke, and by that I mean that my money would be on the top 4-6 chineese teams to demolish the teams playing there, and that is coming from a Navi & M5 fan. Seeing that they don't care to bring the best players possible to the main event, I don't find weird that the female league is a little amateurish. This is reinforced by Navi winning even when they take this tournament as a playground and little more and by how much stronger M5 looked here.

As for the sexist question... you do realize that humans are hardwired to discriminate on first sight, right? I have always found poinltess to avoid discrimination, because you just can't, one sight or even one sound and your brain will instantly try to frame the person into a little neat box for better handling; rather i try to be flexible and smart enough to change my prejudices when proven wrong, except with BR guys at the US servers! SCREW THEM!

and I dont think women should be denied the opertunity to play against guys, because the "brain" aspect is less cut and dry than the "physical muscles" aspect

What do you mean by less cut and dry? http://phys.org/news84473710.html

Theres a plethora of scientific studies over the span of decades showing that testosterone and how much you are willing to endure shitty experiences to "win" are cause and effect in our brains. The one linked was just the first i found (and seemed decent).

That doesn't mean that girls can't play, just that a woman is not likely to keep going till they get good because for the biochemistry of their brain it doesn't make any sense. They would need to be educated into that, the Polgar ladies in chess being the perfect example of this.

So, if a different league is made to level the playing field, and gamers in DotA have a great advantage by having testosterone affecting their brains, I fail to see how it could be clearer. This is exactly why we have different sections in sports that favour males or favour females.

 

[The Lunatic]

For games? Yes, that's dreadfully sexist.

For sport? Actual reasons of fairness.

 

[TehCookie]

Though if would be even better if pro gaming grew up and was actually professional where threats (even empty ones) and harassment is not acceptable. If they want to be taken seriously as a sport they should act respectful. If they want to insult people they should stay in their basement with their bros.

The only problem with this is, this happens across ALL sports, regardless of gender, shit talking happens all the time everywhere, it's hilarious when the mic get's too close in pro sports and you can really hear the juicy bits of what players are yelling at each other.

so yeah, just merely pointing out that this isn't some phenomenon related only to e-sports/gaming.

OT: While I fully support the fact they are trying to create a more welcoming and engaging community for females in gaming, it could be considered sexist..but that is clearly not their intentions i don't think so i'm not going to call it that.

Everyone else is doing it so I guess it makes it okay.

Is it wrong to want people to be nice? Why are you trying to defending being an asshole?

 

[OtherSideofSky]

It seems... kind of silly to me, honestly.

I mean, an argument could be made for women's teams, yes, but a women's division? Those only exist in physical sports because of inherent physical differences which affect performance. People argue over issues with discriminatory language in normal matches, but I assume that sort of thing is regulated in professional competitions (it certainly should be if pro-gaming wants to be taken at all seriously).

All I can see this doing is keeping female pro-gamers out of the spotlight.