Are Women Tournaments Sexist?

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

Though if would be even better if pro gaming grew up and was actually professional where threats (even empty ones) and harassment is not acceptable. If they want to be taken seriously as a sport they should act respectful. If they want to insult people they should stay in their basement with their bros.

The only problem with this is, this happens across ALL sports, regardless of gender, shit talking happens all the time everywhere, it's hilarious when the mic get's too close in pro sports and you can really hear the juicy bits of what players are yelling at each other.

so yeah, just merely pointing out that this isn't some phenomenon related only to e-sports/gaming.

OT: While I fully support the fact they are trying to create a more welcoming and engaging community for females in gaming, it could be considered sexist..but that is clearly not their intentions i don't think so i'm not going to call it that.

Everyone else is doing it so I guess it makes it okay.

Is it wrong to want people to be nice? Why are you trying to defending being an asshole?

that wasn't the point of my post, go back and read what you said, you mentioned growing up to be professional, and being taken seriously as a sport...I was merely pointing out that across the board, it happens in pro sports and it has been that way for a long ass time.

in no way am i defending that, i am just pointing it out. Personally I don't play multiplayer hardly ever because I hate playing against people like that, I always try to be nice myself when playing online, but in no perfect world are you going to have a professional sport where people aren't talking trash/being a douche about it, it just doesn't happen unfortunately.

edit: to slightly make fun of your point a bit:

I have actually went and jumped off bridges a few times, it was amazing amounts of fun, and yes, i would follow people in right after, so yes it was quite okay indeed ^_^

 

[TehCookie]

that wasn't the point of my post, go back and read what you said, you mentioned growing up to be professional, and being taken seriously as a sport...I was merely pointing out that across the board, it happens in pro sports and it has been that way for a long ass time.

in no way am i defending that, i am just pointing it out. Personally I don't play multiplayer hardly ever because I hate playing against people like that, I always try to be nice myself when playing online, but in no perfect world are you going to have a professional sport where people aren't talking trash/being a douche about it, it just doesn't happen unfortunately.

Can't remember the last time people were talking about cup size in chess, equestrian teams or robotics. I haven't watched poker either but that also seems a lot more toned down. There's still some, but it's not at that level. However I do know it's wishful thinking because people are assholes.

Well considering you are trying to beat the other team into the dirt and win, which is naturally aggressive, 'nice' doesn't factor into it.

You play a sport to beat them at a skill, if you just want to win why not break their arm or something if you're that desperate? Never could get into sports because of that.

 

[outie]

I guess it is alright that women can participate in this as well. After all, it has been a novelty to introduce women to politics, education, and every other area of life (apart from nursery and the like) in the past all the time. I think women always have to work harder to get the same positions as men. They have to look good too. Thankfully, there are little helpers like blemish balm [http://www.schrammek.com/products/regulating-care/blemish-balm.html] which allow older women to appear on TV (although I actually think that men use it too, but they hardly ever admit it).

 

[RhanathShadowhand]

Skipped the whole thread after reading the first sentence and I will say this:

Sexism and Discrimination in everything comes from the Creation. What's the difference between Man and Woman? Woman has the ability to give birth, man has the ability to do hardwork easier, etc. See where it goes? See the difference and hence the discrimination and "sexism" here?
Someone who says "well this is sexist" is the sexist. If you think something is sexist, that means you think about the differences between men and women and think "well that's wrong".
On to the point:
Lets say men and women played against each other. Some people will think "well the losing team lost because of the girl, she didn't do anything good!". Feminists will think "the winner team won because of the girl, see how good she did!".
If it was a girls team vs a boys team.
Boys won, girls lost: People will think "Suck it girls, you're not meant to be gamers" OR "well it was no match, boys are clearly better at gaming".
Girls won, boys lost: People will think "look at those losers, they lost to a bunch of girls"
See where it went? As a gamer I'd love to have mixed team tournaments but with so many people watching them with so many different opinions about things, it'll be one hell of a mess.

To sum it up:
Women tournaments are made to clear up stupid opinions such as "well women are no match for men in terms of gaming". And it's all because someone decided that there should be two different genders and not one. Hence "sexism".

 

[Zyst]

For example 1 armor per 200 hp

Ahh, that sentence doesn't even makes sense... you mean that every point in armor is more or less as valuable as 200 hp? Because that would be completly wrong. Armor and armor reduction follow logaritmic growth formulas with soft Diminishing Returns, for example for a 1 armor Lucifer with 2k life getting a simple chainmail will be more or less equivalent of getting 400 life, but a platemail will be worth around 666, of course armor gets much better endgame, if that's what you are going for with your itemization. For it to be worth more or less 200 hp your hero must have 4k life and be facing a pure melee team.

If it was just "1 armor is 200 hp" then chainmail would be worth around 5 times what a vitality booster is throughout the game when taking into account the gold, and no one would ever buy a vitality booster which is obviously a stupid statement. As for the rest, well, i know you know every item is always situational, but for someone new it is not really simple, even for someone veteran as shown here.

OT: I think it's halfway between "affirmative action" and trying to reach a bigger audience by introducing pro girls.

About the level, I am good enough at DotA to realize you are probably better than me (by the info you have given about yourself in this thread) and to also know that in the international scene the Star League is a joke, and by that I mean that my money would be on the top 4-6 chineese teams to demolish the teams playing there, and that is coming from a Navi & M5 fan. Seeing that they don't care to bring the best players possible to the main event, I don't find weird that the female league is a little amateurish. This is reinforced by Navi winning even when they take this tournament as a playground and little more and by how much stronger M5 looked here.

As for the sexist question... you do realize that humans are hardwired to discriminate on first sight, right? I have always found poinltess to avoid discrimination, because you just can't, one sight or even one sound and your brain will instantly try to frame the person into a little neat box for better handling; rather i try to be flexible and smart enough to change my prejudices when proven wrong, except with BR guys at the US servers! SCREW THEM!

and I dont think women should be denied the opertunity to play against guys, because the "brain" aspect is less cut and dry than the "physical muscles" aspect

What do you mean by less cut and dry? http://phys.org/news84473710.html

Theres a plethora of scientific studies over the span of decades showing that testosterone and how much you are willing to endure shitty experiences to "win" are cause and effect in our brains. The one linked was just the first i found (and seemed decent).

That doesn't mean that girls can't play, just that a woman is not likely to keep going till they get good because for the biochemistry of their brain it doesn't make any sense. They would need to be educated into that, the Polgar ladies in chess being the perfect example of this.

So, if a different league is made to level the playing field, and gamers in DotA have a great advantage by having testosterone affecting their brains, I fail to see how it could be clearer. This is exactly why we have different sections in sports that favour males or favour females.

Yeah my statistic was a bit wrong, it's 11 armor for every 500hp over 1000. Don't believe me? Here's a guy who did the math:


I follow 200 hp ~ 1 armor because most of the time you don't really want to stack armor, or buy armor items on most heroes so you usually offset it by getting Agility, however, your armor isn't really at the 11 armor per 500hp number, but it doesn't matter because you do that much more damage which helps your team more as a carry.

 

[Slayer_2]

Women can't be sexist, everyone knows that...

 

[Crises^]

I think its strange to split up the sexes in gaming tournaments, I know plenty of women who were excellent at css.

Didn't know they split the sexes in some games, isn't that just going backwards in development?

 

[gazumped]

The population is the exact reason a female only league is a bad idea. If the pop. is so low, then singling out a league for the minority pop. just makes the pool even smaller. You're less likely to see women in the "major league" while the woman only league will be small and have more difficulty achieving wide appeal.

There are male dominated fields and there are female dominated fields, and they are all taught the same to both sexes because the skills needed for each field are universally the same for both sexes with extremely minor deviations in a extremely small number of fields. The only fields I can think of that would have radically different training based on sex would be porn stars and religious occupations.

A main reason though is that "separate but equal" was found unconstitutional in all forms long ago because the only way for something to truly be equal would be to receive the exact same thing in which it is no longer separate<also if you're separating things then the chance for subpar treatment is easier to get away with>.

There is no reason to make separate leagues, gaming will always be a man state until women shoulder the uncomfortableness that is gaming's "boys club" and break into their own as professional gamers. This may seem harsh, but the same thing has happened countless times through history in chess, golf, pool, tennis..... and while the physical ones are separated<I will never know why pool has a womans league, its a mental game, not exceptionally poweress based>, there is no reason gaming should be separate.

I mean, like I said in my earlier post, I avoid women's groups (in general) myself because I feel that they are mostly seen as the 'sucky' version of the 'real' groups. Women who are already serious enough about gaming that they don't care about the gender disparity are likely to want to continue to be seen as being 'as good as the men' and stay in the unisex leagues. The women's only league, I imagine, is for the women who have been put off by the gender skew before now, who need a place that says 'actually, this is totally for you, not just for guys'. There's the argument that it would give current pro women an excuse to slink off to the segregated group, or there's the argument that competing a woman's league is likely to build women's confidence in their abilities so they feel ready to join the men who are already established.

'cause don't forget, in this day and age women feel a pressure not to 'let the side down' by 'proving' that we're not as good as men in certain things. And some women feel it's easier to not challenge them at all than to challenge them and lose.

You say women should get over their uncomfortableness with it, but this is exactly what they're doing by making a space in pro gaming where they're not just welcome but necessary to join in. It may be only a first step to the desired goal, but it's a lot more manageable for a lot of people than just trying to 'get over it' when 'it' is two decades or so of being told that your gender isn't as good as the other gender at something.

 

[MorganL4]

TBH I think the E-Sports men's and women's thing is just a cash grab... "HEY GUYS!!! remember how thousands of people logged into their computers to stream our tournament for 10 bucks each? WE CAN DO IT AGAIN!!!!...... But with women!!!"

Its not sexism, so much as greed.

 

[snekadid]

You say women should get over their uncomfortableness with it, but this is exactly what they're doing by making a space in pro gaming where they're not just welcome but necessary to join in. It may be only a first step to the desired goal, but it's a lot more manageable for a lot of people than just trying to 'get over it' when 'it' is two decades or so of being told that your gender isn't as good as the other gender at something.

That's exactly what they are not doing. By not competing against men they are saying they are not as good as the men while at the same time creating a comfortable barrier between them and the "men's league" where they can play without risk which both makes them less likely to leave their bubble for the mixed competition and creates a precedent for separating male and female players in a non physical competition. It bolsters the argument that men and women are not equals and that is destructive.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Men are better in spatial coordination and have a better sense of direction (usually!). They excel in math and are great at interpreting three-dimensional objects. They have a better hand-eye coordination and more precise control of large muscle movement. They have poor peripheral vision but better sight in bright light and a better sense of perspective. Since they use one side of their brain more than the other, they tend to use the left side for verbal reasoning and the right for visual and emotional activities (if they are right handed).

Source: http://www.columbia.edu/itc/anthropology/v1007/jakabovics/mf2.html

Emphasis mine.

That theory does does sure seem interesting and relevant to a top down orthographic game played on a monitor that displays flat 2d images! This would also explain my shittiness at 3d modeling, what was I thinking with that pea brain of mine. I can't make heads or tails of what I see!

But anyway, it doesn't seem necessary, and it's not something I would choose to participate in unless it was a more casual setting just for fun (I tend to be competitive and I don't like to feel patronized) and to make women feel more welcome to playing the game. Don't really see what the big deal is, though.

You're taking offense where there is none to be had. Men and women are biologically different, although one gender isn't inherently superior to the other in a general sense.

The only thing I'm taking offense to is how incredibly stupid that explanation sounds, especially given how a game like Dota 2 has pretty much nothing whatsoever to do with spatial awareness.

And geez. I play video games with a bunch of friends, one of which someone who recently lost his actual ability to discern spatial depth, and it has no bearing at all on his ability to play Mario platformers or what have you. The TV screen doesn't even display real depth. 0:

What skills, then, would you say go into playing DotA2?

 

[Tanakh]

Yeah my statistic was a bit wrong, it's 11 armor for every 500hp over 1000. Don't believe me? Here's a guy who did the math

The math is very standard, but for the average person that isn't a "really simple formula", if only because it involves logaritmic growth that changes values depending on the variable health, and if you really want to give it meaning, it only can be done in a match. The same for any item really, you can do simple math to see it's base value, but it's real value can only be messured in a real match and even then in a specific moment of it.

BTW, in that vid, PA and Lyc as mixed? Really? WTF. But he got the table right.

 

[renegade7]

In physical sports, men and women are usually in divided categories because of the physical differences between the genders. For instance, men have more slow-twitch muscle and less fast-twitch muscle than women (apply more force but not as quickly, vice versa for women) and this is something that no amount of exercise can completely even out, female athletes typically have a bit more pain tolerance than do men, women are very often shorter and more slender than men.

So with e-sports being very new by comparison, there is still a lot to work out in regards to how they are presented and carried out. When there are unknowns like this, the easiest thing to do is use concepts that are familiar. So even though gender differences are irrelevant in a video game, tournaments may be divided by gender because that is something the audience is familiar with.

 

[Blue Jay]

It's a good way to encourage women to play, it may demean them slightly (or maybe not) but it is encouraging.

 

[Zen Toombs]

The reason why the sexism card won't be played as often in this women-only scenario is because of a simple hypocricy: women are often seen a minority.
Not a true minority for their non-existent lack of numbers, but for a perceived a lack of strength or ability.

....did you just turn the fact that women are a minority into a sexist thing? They're a sociological minority because they have less power, privileges and social status. The reason for that is a history of sexism, but the fact that women are a minority is just that: a fact.

EDIT: OOPS, did not realize this was a 5 page thread. If this has already been addressed, please ignore.

 

[Loonyyy]

Yeah, sure. By definition they're splitting it by gender, so yeah. But aren't all gender divisions in any form of competition sexist?

The gender splits in athletics are based on the potential for ability, but why don't we simply view the best of everyone? Because we'd like to get an equal amount of people in both groups competing. Whether or not one of those groups has a disadvantage.

In gaming, there certainly seems to be a disproportionate representation of gender in some areas, especially at the professional level. I'm fully behind making an equal amount of women able to compete. Maybe we should have "Male Only" tournaments as well.

I couldn't really care less if they decided to make their own tournaments. I don't whinge about not being able to play womens Basketball, I don't whinge about not going to girls nights with female friends, why would I want to force everyone to play together? If there's players who'll do it-go for it.

 

[Fappy]

I honestly think it's really stupid. Women having their own tournament to "welcome" them seems pretty condescending to me.

"We both know you're not good enough to compete with us, so we're going to give you your own special tournament."

Why don't they just have a tournament for all bads/new players? Woman or otherwise.