Arkham City.... Sexist?

[moosek]

As far as a T rating goes, '*****' is kinda the limit.

 

[Fiz_The_Toaster]

Honestly, I was really excited for this game, and up until I read that it was used in equivalent situations by both good guys and bad guys (therefore equating and normalizing it) I was preparing to defend it.

But argh, just argh. Sounds like the destroyed catwomen's character as well.

Two things, and I'm not trying to be rude here:

1. What would you like them to call her when she's kicking their ass? I would call the situation in that picture quite accurate.

Would've agreed with that, if the good guys didn't say it too.

2. Catwoman was always sexualized, and look at Batman. Tell me all those muscle aren't there for fan service to the ladies.

Really? You really think that's why? Video games have been historically aimed at guys, and they for the most part have used idealized bodies even for characters. Think about it for a second, why would men want to play an idealized muscle-bound character?

First point- So suddenly it's not okay for anyone else to call her a *****? Sorry, I don't buy that. She's an anti-hero who steals high end stuff, and she was originally a bad guy, but for the sake of the argument I will stick to this game. I would imagine any good guy would call her a ***** since she does questionable things. Kicking a bunch of guys asses and then stealing something, yeah, I'd call her a ***** too if I were Batman.

Second point- Historically is the keyword there, but it's not the case anymore. Yeah it's idealized for guys, but some women can like how Batman looks in the game. I will say judging by the way this game has been designed, it was going towards a comic book feel, look at the Joker and Harley Quinn, I would argue comic book style. If this was Gears of War, I would have a slightly different opinion, but this is a game based on a comic book, people just want to play as Batman.

 

[Smeggs]

So, Kotaku recently posted an article how Arkham City might contain some elements of sexism. Take a look. [http://kotaku.com/5851358/batman-arkham-citys-weird-*****-fixation] What do you all think? Is the overuse of the word "*****" in this context just simply unfortunately lackluster writing? Or is it something more?

Some takes on this from others:
http://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/10/19/goddammit-video-games-the-first-few-hours-of-arkham-city-is-lots-of-fun-but-super-duper-sexist/
http://gameoverthinker.blogspot.com/2011/10/will-arkham-city-be-this-years-other-m.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmEuQTiYhc

Batman has always had spousal abuse and violence. It's a filthy world, but someone has to clean it up.

He's Batman.

 

[AdumbroDeus]

First point- So suddenly it's not okay for anyone else to call her a *****? Sorry, I don't buy that. She's an anti-hero who steals high end stuff, and she was originally a bad guy, but for the sake of the argument I will stick to this game. I would imagine any good guy would call her a ***** since she does questionable things. Kicking a bunch of guys asses and then stealing something, yeah, I'd call her a ***** too if I were Batman.

The thing is that "*****" is a very sexist slur. You might, but I wouldn't, and I'd hope that batman was better then that.

What's the point of making a "liberated" woman if you're not gonna take a potshot at sexism, and instead are gonna utterly normalize it?

Second point- Historically is the keyword there, but it's not the case anymore. Yeah it's idealized for guys, but some women can like how Batman looks in the game. I will say judging by the way this game has been designed, it was going towards a comic book feel, look at the Joker and Harley Quinn, I would argue comic book style. If this was Gears of War, I would have a slightly different opinion, but this is a game based on a comic book, people just want to play as Batman.

And? The game's still made primarily for guys. The fact that girls like the look doesn't mean that the decisions was made because of them, it's a fringe benefit.

 

[JohnDoey]

First point- So suddenly it's not okay for anyone else to call her a *****? Sorry, I don't buy that. She's an anti-hero who steals high end stuff, and she was originally a bad guy, but for the sake of the argument I will stick to this game. I would imagine any good guy would call her a ***** since she does questionable things. Kicking a bunch of guys asses and then stealing something, yeah, I'd call her a ***** too if I were Batman.

The thing is that "*****" is a very sexist slur. You might, but I wouldn't, and I'd hope that batman was better then that.

What's the point of making a "liberated" woman if you're not gonna take a potshot at sexism, and instead are gonna utterly normalize it?

Second point- Historically is the keyword there, but it's not the case anymore. Yeah it's idealized for guys, but some women can like how Batman looks in the game. I will say judging by the way this game has been designed, it was going towards a comic book feel, look at the Joker and Harley Quinn, I would argue comic book style. If this was Gears of War, I would have a slightly different opinion, but this is a game based on a comic book, people just want to play as Batman.

And? The game's still made primarily for guys. The fact that girls like the look doesn't mean that the decisions was made because of them, it's a fringe benefit.

Batman at no point calls anyone a ***** I don't know where you got your info but only the bad guys call Catwoman a *****.

 

[Kenbo Slice]

Dialogue in this case referring to all the voice acting in the game. I get the sense that we're not really speaking the same language here.

I'm not going to address the obvious red herring here. My argument is that the writers were negligent in this one regarding the female characters, and that constitutes unintentional sexism. I never made any claims about misogyny.

But it doesn't constitute sexism. All it constitutes is lazy writing. The only insult hurled towards batman is ***** and freak and the only insult hurled towards Catwoman is *****. This isn't lazy writing that led to unintentional sexism, this is just lazy writing.

Considering that's been my position the entire time, i'm not sure why you think my head was ever up there in the first place.

Now hold on a second. During this entire discussion your entire argument boiled down to "X insult is directed towards a woman, therefore it's sexist". The writing might be bad, but it's not sexist. Get over it.

Again, I didn't say misogyny. It's lazy writing that disparately affects the female characters. Batman gets a wider variety of insults.

I don't think you understand exactly what sexism is. And you're right, Batman does get a wider variety of insults ranging from ***** and freak to... well that's about it actually. In order for the writing to be inherently sexist it needs to "involves hatred of, or prejudice towards a gender as a whole or the blind application of gender stereotypes" for non-artistic reasons. I fail to see how the writing in Arkham City does this.

By expecting me to find crappy writing acceptable.

I didn't know the writing insulted your intelligence. Maybe you're to easily offended. If the writing insults your intelligence so much maybe you should not play the game or in case you just can't do that then maybe you should consider turning the volume off.

Oh sure, that's a representative sample of society as whole.

But random dictionary definitions do? Or rather the people behind that definition? It couldn't be that the meaning of the word changed or that it's never used with the original meaning, right? That has never happened before. The meaning of a word never changes.

So we can agree that when it came to writing insults for the female characters, the writers got lazy?

No, we can agree that the writing was poorly executed as a whole. There's nothing inherently sexist about the usage of the word ***** just like there's nothing inherently sexist about the usage of the word "dick" or "bastard".

Might I add I was playing as Catwoman yesterday and they called her a freak. So now that Batman and her have the same two insults, is it not sexist anymore?

 

[Crazy]

You're complaining about the use of the word *****. The term ***** is actually that of a female dog, therefore they're calling him a female dog. Get over it.

 

[AdumbroDeus]

First point- So suddenly it's not okay for anyone else to call her a *****? Sorry, I don't buy that. She's an anti-hero who steals high end stuff, and she was originally a bad guy, but for the sake of the argument I will stick to this game. I would imagine any good guy would call her a ***** since she does questionable things. Kicking a bunch of guys asses and then stealing something, yeah, I'd call her a ***** too if I were Batman.

The thing is that "*****" is a very sexist slur. You might, but I wouldn't, and I'd hope that batman was better then that.

What's the point of making a "liberated" woman if you're not gonna take a potshot at sexism, and instead are gonna utterly normalize it?

Second point- Historically is the keyword there, but it's not the case anymore. Yeah it's idealized for guys, but some women can like how Batman looks in the game. I will say judging by the way this game has been designed, it was going towards a comic book feel, look at the Joker and Harley Quinn, I would argue comic book style. If this was Gears of War, I would have a slightly different opinion, but this is a game based on a comic book, people just want to play as Batman.

And? The game's still made primarily for guys. The fact that girls like the look doesn't mean that the decisions was made because of them, it's a fringe benefit.

Batman at no point calls anyone a ***** I don't know where you got your info but only the bad guys call Catwoman a *****.

I actually meant the other good guys and was referring to it as a franchise. I know the security guards did, and I'm pretty sure various police did.

You're complaining about the use of the word *****. The term ***** is actually that of a female dog, therefore they're calling him a female dog. Get over it.

Gendered insult with tons of linguistic baggage dude. Seriously.

 

[JdaS]

Couple of very obvious problems with this one:

1. It's the BAD GUYS that are calling her a *****. It's the BAD GUYS beating her up. That means the game is taking a bunch of sexist assholes and saying, "See these guys? Don't be like them!" And hell, even if BATMAN called her a *****, the game still wouldn't be sexist. And here's why:

2. It's not sexist to call a single woman a *****. It's only sexist if you say ALL women are bitches. I mean, lets face it...Catwoman is not exactly Mother Teresa. But guess what? It's OK for Catwoman to be a total ***** without implying sexism. Just because SHE'S a *****, that doesn't mean that all women are bitches.

3. I'm sure these thugs have nothing but compliments for Batman, then? Wait, I forgot. Only women can be victims of sexism.

I really hate living in a culture where all of this is not EXTREMELY obvious.

I don't even understand how these people think. This guy is playing Arkham City, doesn't like the overuse of the word ***** and suddenly decides it's sexist. It reminds me of the infamous RE5 debate of "shooting black zombies in Africa. RACIST???"

All I know is, if I were a hardcore criminal with an IQ of 55 and lots of insecurity, and there was a woman running around in a catsuit kicking me and my colleagues asses ***** is what I'd call her. Yeah, ***** works.

Some people really need to stop reading entirely too much into this kind of stuff.

 

[Treblaine]

Snip

The fact that you opened with what you opened with means you couldn't have possibly watched the video, and have therefore willingly ignored a large part of my argument. One which completely answers many of your points very well.

And since you called ME out for being hetero-centric, ageist and sexist and went on a completely dribbling little rant, you've just proven yourself to not really be worth the time, since you'll just directly ignore anything I have to say. I'm pulling out of this shit, have a good night sir.

(1) there is a difference between citing sources to back up your argument and saying "hey, just go watch this video". You haven't even suggested how Bayonetta is different from Catwoman, I want to hear YOUR explanation! In YOUR words. YOUR comparison between Bayonetta and Catwoman.
That video is almost a quarter of an hour long and I remember watching it when it came out over a year ago and I don't remember anything that would define Catwoman as sexist. The first 5 minutes is how very VERY sexual she is.

(2) I genuinely think it IS ageist, Sexist and hetero-centric, what you SAID, not that you ARE that way always. Just that particular point that you made. People make mistakes all the time. But the fact that you refuse to correct yourself or explain yourself... THAT does suggest you are in the wrong.

(3) YOU are ignoring every point I have to say. Define a "dribbling little rant" rather than simply an argument you can't be bothered (or are even able to) counter. So if you want to "pull out of this shit" then fine, no loss for anyone, my argument (that the artistic integrity of the developers should be respected) still stands UNOPPOSED.

 

[AdumbroDeus]

Oh for Fuck's sake people, why are we even lending credibility to this horseshit by talking about it?

I mean Jesus Christ, are you really surprised? Have you not heard all this a BILLION times before? Do we have to dance this dance again? Do we really have to go over this Every. Fucking. Time?!?

NO! The game isn't fucking sexist, it's most likely just a writing quirk that meant that one, very common, insult that just HAPPENS only to be applicable to women ended up being slightly over-used.

And so what? SO. FUCKING. WHAT?!?

And don't even get me started on the "Baaaaaaw!!! Catwoman wears a skimpy costume" argument, my head will explode from rage.

Just because this type of discussion has happened before doesn't mean that it's not an important discussion to have.

You ever considered why those words are only applicable to women? Or what that implies?

Couple of very obvious problems with this one:

1. It's the BAD GUYS that are calling her a *****. It's the BAD GUYS beating her up. That means the game is taking a bunch of sexist assholes and saying, "See these guys? Don't be like them!" And hell, even if BATMAN called her a *****, the game still wouldn't be sexist. And here's why:

2. It's not sexist to call a single woman a *****. It's only sexist if you say ALL women are bitches. I mean, lets face it...Catwoman is not exactly Mother Teresa. But guess what? It's OK for Catwoman to be a total ***** without implying sexism. Just because SHE'S a *****, that doesn't mean that all women are bitches.

3. I'm sure these thugs have nothing but compliments for Batman, then? Wait, I forgot. Only women can be victims of sexism.

I really hate living in a culture where all of this is not EXTREMELY obvious.

I don't even understand how these people think. This guy is playing Arkham City, doesn't like the overuse of the word ***** and suddenly decides it's sexist. It reminds me of the infamous RE5 debate of "shooting black zombies in Africa. RASIST???"

All I know is, if I were a hardcore criminal with an IQ of 55 and lots of insecurity, and there was a woman running around in a catsuit kicking me and my colleagues asses ***** is what I'd call her. Yeah, ***** works.

Some people really need to stop reading entirely too much into this kind of stuff.

I loved the RE5 debate, mostly cause people went mostly centered the conversation around the totally non-racist stuff merely because it was disturbing (aids epidemic imagery anyone?) and completely ignored the very racist tribal sections.

Though, we already know Japan has a very racist culture, not in the hatred sense, just in the "you are not one of us and can never be like us" sense, Japanese heritage is intrinsically tied with their sense of self and in turn, with their sense of normalcy.

 

[dickywebster]

Idk about sexist, but id have to say that catwoman is a walking fetish whatever, heck ive seen dominatrixes dress more casually/modestly/idk what word im looking for here.

 

[AdumbroDeus]

Oh for Fuck's sake people, why are we even lending credibility to this horseshit by talking about it?

I mean Jesus Christ, are you really surprised? Have you not heard all this a BILLION times before? Do we have to dance this dance again? Do we really have to go over this Every. Fucking. Time?!?

NO! The game isn't fucking sexist, it's most likely just a writing quirk that meant that one, very common, insult that just HAPPENS only to be applicable to women ended up being slightly over-used.

And so what? SO. FUCKING. WHAT?!?

And don't even get me started on the "Baaaaaaw!!! Catwoman wears a skimpy costume" argument, my head will explode from rage.

Just because this type of discussion has happened before doesn't mean that it's not an important discussion to have.

You ever considered why those words are only applicable to women? Or what that implies?

Yes it is an important discussion, but you'll have to forgive me for being slightly tired of having to have this discussion every two fucking days.

Fair enough, the deus ex one was pretty ridiculous.

Yes, I have considered why the word "*****" is only applicable to women, it's because it's original meaning is "Female dog".

And it implies exactly JACK. SHIT.

Eh, being a female dog is just as insulting to men inherently as it is to women, ***** means a lot more. What do you think it means?

 

[TheIronRuler]

I think that they should have replace ***** with pussycat in this one - ""I'll make you meow, *****,".
Other than that, I don't give a fuck because the writers are very competent and I won't critisize their work only becasue they use profanity in it.
I won't shout at them, "Avast!" and force them to censor it.

 

[AdumbroDeus]

Yes, I have considered why the word "*****" is only applicable to women, it's because it's original meaning is "Female dog".

And it implies exactly JACK. SHIT.

Eh, being a female dog is just as insulting to men inherently as it is to women, ***** means a lot more. What do you think it means?

What I think you're fishing for is that it's sexist that there even exists derogatory terms that refer exclusively to women. And yes, i suppose it was, at some point.

The English language developed during a time where EVERYTHING was extremely sexist, however it is the language that we are now stuck with, and the fact that words were sexist when they were created has absolutely no bearing on their current usage or any work of fiction that chooses to use them.

The English language isn't perfect, but it's not gonna change just because some people decide to get butthurt over the smallest things.

Actually no.

What I'm pointing out is that the reason why the term is sexist is because it refers to women acting like they have power and attempting to utilize it, and makes it an insult.

Similarly to the way the word "whore" makes being sexually liberated an insult.