Arrested ArmA 3 Devs Denied Appeal for Espionage Charges

[Gilhelmi]

Wow Greece just cant do anything right, not their economy or their legal system.

See, Greece is a sovereign nation. As such, they have the right to protect their military secrets.

Are the developers telling the truth? Probably (note: I only said probably, the stories from WW2 about what those spies did and said to get info is crazy)

Can the developers prove this in court? That will remain to be seen. I suspect the trial out-come is 70-30% odds against the developers.

Now see, I happen to come from America, and not a fascist hellhole, so the idea that innocence needs to be proven is an alien concept to me.

I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I meant that the evidence against the developers will convict them. They will be proven guilty. It would be like if the police caught you with say a scheduled 2 drug (prescription) and it looked like you were selling them because you had the bottle out and your friend was handing you cash (this was all the police saw). You would be convicted in court of unlawful distribution, police eyewitness, drugs, money changing hands. Unless, you could convince the jury that this was a wacky misunderstanding (say your friend owed you money and just happen to catch up to you when you were taking your medicine).

So what I am saying is that they will be proven guilty because of the evidence, BUT they might be able to prove their innocence.

Really, based on the info I have seen anyway, they should have known better then to be where they were. Their best hope is to try and show the they accidentally went onto private land. At the same time though, I do not know of a country that would not arrest you for photographing military installations. Heck, there are strict policies in place about family members taking photos at their homes on US posts (mainly, avoid landmarks in background and "when in doubt ASK, the army don't forgive").

 

[Gilhelmi]

This is terrible, and another example of law being applied for its own sake, not for any pursuit of justice.

The law common among a great many countries is that what is viewable from the public space is legal to photograph, regardless if anything that is viewable is physically on private space. To have law which says otherwise would make public living not only unmanageable but also incredibly unjust, perhaps threatening decades of imprisonment for innocent people.

Not quite, You can be arrested in the US if you are photographing things that have large signs saying "DO NOT PHOTOGRAPH UNDER PENALTY OF LAW". You see them from time to time approaching a military post and other Government buildings.

Guards might not arrest you (in the US), But they will detain you and ask lots of questions, If you are taking pictures of even the gates into a military post. They will suspect you of terrorism, and thanks to President Obama, may (in the future, I doubt they would do this today) detain you indefinitely without lawyer, trail, or arrest (even American citizens).

 

[Gilhelmi]

Snooping around a foreign country's military base should definitely be punished, regardless of your reasons for doing so. However, 20 years is absolutely ridiculous for this situation.

apparently their snooping was filming footage on the way from the hotel back to the airport to go back home. there was apparently a military hanger in the background at the airport. they werent even there on official business. according to whats been released, they liked the place from their research and decided to go on holiday

the local government there has a real grudge against bohemia interactive for basing the next game on their island. apparently they got pissed that it will be depicted as a warzone..

They got pissed at a company building a model of a strategically important island by a company that sells military training.

You do realise that the recreation of the island is far removed from reality and thus a 1 to 1 recreation? You could not use it anymore to plan an invasion of the island than GTAIV to navigate New York.

So why did they spend money on sending people to to photograph the island then? Just because the model in the game isn't a 1 to 1 recreation does not mean they can't use the information to build one. The model has one very obvious customer in Turkey, who the Greeks have been war with for the most of the last 1000 years. Why even use that Greek island out of the 100s that Greece has? Why choose one of the most strategically important islands as opposed to Eubeoa which has no importance what so ever?

Or you know if Turkey wanted intelligence or pictures of the base they could, you know, go to google maps instead of sending a few game developers with a little camera.

But I suppose that is too simple for people who have been at war for most of the last 1000 years huh?

First of all, all satellite pictures are censored before they end up in public like google maps. So no good intelligence will come from google maps, or any non-military satellite photo. Also most army bases have intricate camouflage protection that will confuse someone looking from a photo.

Espionage with a camera on the other hand can figure, how many guards there are on a specific time on the base. At what time they change positions etc. What kind of military exercises happened at what time. Also what kind of response will they get when they violate the perimeter. All these are golden information for any enemy military.

That's why around military bases there are restricted areas. No civilians can approach such areas. Near the army bases there are also signs of no photos/video allowed nearby.

When they find two foreign guys in a restricted area taking video with no specific reason to do this. And when they find that they are related with military training software company. This raises a problem!

Also the base they where photographing, is a NATO base. This means that any UN laws conflict with military NATO laws. This means that this spying, is not only problem for the Greece, but for the NATO military also. Remember that Greece is the border for the EU and this isn't something to take lightly.

You can understand that this is something more that "two guys shot a video".
It has elevated into "two spies threaten the security of NATO military bases"

Think of it like the Area 52 in the US.

On the first point, they are kinda shit when it comes to asking them to censor out things, if you go look at the base on Google maps there are a few places where you can see attack helos just sitting out front of hangars and the like.

And normally you can tell where something on google maps has been white washed for security reasons (it is left blank instead of having any details) but the entire base, all its buildings and such are in full view on the map.

And the fact that they are from a company that is known for making realistic war games and simulators is a point in their favor, because no intelligence agency is going to be that stupid to send a pair of Czech game developers to take pictures when they could instead send an operative with better cover, better training, and better deniability.[\b]

HA, you really need to look up some of the history of spying. That is a point against them as well because that "realistic war games and simulators" might be being developed, or used by, a non-friendly nation (to NATO, UN, US does not matter). Appearances are the way they are.

I will agree about Google maps. I think some legislature needs to start putting down some better laws preventing more of that. That needs "fixing", entire bases need to be white washed.

 

[Gilhelmi]

They got pissed at a company building a model of a strategically important island by a company that sells military training.

What, you mean this island?

Spoiler

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/825/islandm.jpg/]

With this 'military' base?

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/202/airporte.jpg/]

And these bomber targets?

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/201/airplanes.jpg/]

Yeah. Bullshit charges from a bullshit country. Australia is just as likely to be invaded in this day and age, and also has a combined military/regular airport. Want me to go take my DSLR and get some pictures of the tail numbers on some F/A-18s?
I can, you know. It's because my government aren't fucking tards and know anybody who goes to war can afford to get some, you know, satellite images or perhaps some long range photos from a nearby mountain. Or a small child with a pen (crayon) camera.

Here, have a picture of our hangers in incredibly high detail:

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/hiluxh.jpg/]

Do you know why we don't care about pictures of our bases?
Because we have these things called 'radar' and 'SAM's and because any retard can find satellite images of 99.9% of the earth for free, let alone buying them from companies who don't care if they're not meant to take pictures of certain areas. Why the hell would you send 2 random guys with a video camera to get your information? What purpose could that serve, to then leave the incriminating files un-encrypted on their video camera instead of swallowing a MicroSD card or 5?

No. Apparently common sense goes out the window when paranoid idiots are in power. This is nothing but scapegoating so the government LOOKS like they're actually doing something, yet it's backfired because now the whole world is going to search for this mythical air base and suddenly people who got back from holiday are going to go 'Hey! I have a pic of that place! Imma put it on facebook!'.

One tiny problem, terrorism.

They do not show up on radar, and SAMS are of no effect. You wont even know they are there until they start selecting their target. Photographing is the first step in planning an attack. Arial photos are nice to get a layout, BUT on-ground is needed to figure out guard changes, what/when training goes on, where the airman's favorite watering hole is (if I am suspicious of people following me, I start making a set of right turns).

And really, and I know you got them off a public site, those pictures should be illegal. I now know the approximate size and strength of that base. If you combine those images with ground images, and count how many take-off/land and what time. In theory, you could launch an effective small group attack.

There is just way too much information out on the internet.

 

[Vhite]

Im really starting to hate Greece lately, first they have to be fed like spoiled fat kid (yes, thats what I imagine when I think of that country, not Athenes or Sparta any more) by poorer countries just so it can stay fat because it cant take care of its own economy and now little things like this keep pushing it.

 

[Zykon TheLich_v1legacy]

The Greeks have a history of losing their shit over stuff like this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2397667.stm

Unfortunately the Czech government seems to not be doing much to help whereas the British Government sent the Foreign secretary to personally "ask" for them to be released.

 

[Andrew_C]

I will agree about Google maps. I think some legislature needs to start putting down some better laws preventing more of that. That needs "fixing", entire bases need to be white washed.

There is legislation against it in some countries against it which is why bases in the US and if I recall the UK are blotted out.

Greece and their bumb-fuck legal system are just too busy with useless crap, say like arresting game developers, to do anything about REAL threats...Like google!

So why is HMS Faslane, the UK's nuclear submarine base one on the few areas in Scotland with high-resolution photograhy in Google Maps and Google Earth? https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=56.062597,-4.810209&spn=0.019479,0.031886&t=h&z=15&lci=com.panoramio.all

 

[CriticalX13]

They got pissed at a company building a model of a strategically important island by a company that sells military training.

What, you mean this island?

Spoiler

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/825/islandm.jpg/]

With this 'military' base?

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/202/airporte.jpg/]

And these bomber targets?

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/201/airplanes.jpg/]

Yeah. Bullshit charges from a bullshit country. Australia is just as likely to be invaded in this day and age, and also has a combined military/regular airport. Want me to go take my DSLR and get some pictures of the tail numbers on some F/A-18s?
I can, you know. It's because my government aren't fucking tards and know anybody who goes to war can afford to get some, you know, satellite images or perhaps some long range photos from a nearby mountain. Or a small child with a pen (crayon) camera.

Here, have a picture of our hangers in incredibly high detail:

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/hiluxh.jpg/]

Do you know why we don't care about pictures of our bases?
Because we have these things called 'radar' and 'SAM's and because any retard can find satellite images of 99.9% of the earth for free, let alone buying them from companies who don't care if they're not meant to take pictures of certain areas. Why the hell would you send 2 random guys with a video camera to get your information? What purpose could that serve, to then leave the incriminating files un-encrypted on their video camera instead of swallowing a MicroSD card or 5?

No. Apparently common sense goes out the window when paranoid idiots are in power. This is nothing but scapegoating so the government LOOKS like they're actually doing something, yet it's backfired because now the whole world is going to search for this mythical air base and suddenly people who got back from holiday are going to go 'Hey! I have a pic of that place! Imma put it on facebook!'.

One tiny problem, terrorism.

They do not show up on radar, and SAMS are of no effect. You wont even know they are there until they start selecting their target. Photographing is the first step in planning an attack. Arial photos are nice to get a layout, BUT on-ground is needed to figure out guard changes, what/when training goes on, where the airman's favorite watering hole is (if I am suspicious of people following me, I start making a set of right turns).

And really, and I know you got them off a public site, those pictures should be illegal. I now know the approximate size and strength of that base. If you combine those images with ground images, and count how many take-off/land and what time. In theory, you could launch an effective small group attack.

There is just way too much information out on the internet.

One little issue i can see here is that to extract that kinda data you would need a lot of photos/videos of the base in question. It would need to be collected methodically, collated, analyzed and inferences made. By the time this is all done the data is effectively useless, because military bases randomize there patrols, guard changes, etc.. as a standard operating practice

I have only seen the article where it mentions the offending clip is taken on a public road back to the hotel and the military structure in question is a hangar at a major airport (or near by to it)

I havent found the article where it mentions they gained access sensitive military base to take some photos (yet, i will keep looking). They should be thankful they werent shot on sight, if that is the case.

 

[PunkRex]

just give greece some money and they will be released in no time. beggars cant be choosers...

My thoughts on the subject. They've took so many hand outs from the rest of the EU and this is how they go about treating foreigners. Im not saying they shouldn't put people on trial but this just seems so backward.

 

[Iron Criterion]

They got pissed at a company building a model of a strategically important island by a company that sells military training.

What, you mean this island?

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/825/islandm.jpg/]

With this 'military' base?

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/202/airporte.jpg/]

And these bomber targets?

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/201/airplanes.jpg/]

Yeah. Bullshit charges from a bullshit country. Australia is just as likely to be invaded in this day and age, and also has a combined military/regular airport. Want me to go take my DSLR and get some pictures of the tail numbers on some F/A-18s?
I can, you know. It's because my government aren't fucking tards and know anybody who goes to war can afford to get some, you know, satellite images or perhaps some long range photos from a nearby mountain. Or a small child with a pen (crayon) camera.

Here, have a picture of our hangers in incredibly high detail:

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/hiluxh.jpg/]

Do you know why we don't care about pictures of our bases?
Because we have these things called 'radar' and 'SAM's and because any retard can find satellite images of 99.9% of the earth for free, let alone buying them from companies who don't care if they're not meant to take pictures of certain areas. Why the hell would you send 2 random guys with a video camera to get your information? What purpose could that serve, to then leave the incriminating files un-encrypted on their video camera instead of swallowing a MicroSD card or 5?

No. Apparently common sense goes out the window when paranoid idiots are in power. This is nothing but scapegoating so the government LOOKS like they're actually doing something, yet it's backfired because now the whole world is going to search for this mythical air base and suddenly people who got back from holiday are going to go 'Hey! I have a pic of that place! Imma put it on facebook!'.

We need to get you to represent the developers, because that was marvellous!

 

[Notsomuch]

They should be released on the grounds that Greece has no important secrets and is a mess of a country. If anyone wanted to spy on Greece, apparently all they have to do is look in on their bases from the airport. That is if anyone would bother spying on Greece. Even if the Ottoman Empire was still around they would either just run right around it or right over it. As of now, the only people who care about Greece are those who hate it because of it's well positioned Fascist party and those who wish they knew how to create revenue for themselves instead of going Bankrupt and making things awkward for everyone else. The only important Contributions from Greece to the western world happened thousands of years ago and it has mostly been downhill from there.

 

[The Great Purtabo]

lol funny to see if something happen that makes YANKS think they have a right to give comments on injustice.....stfu - there will be a trial etc etc IF they can prove that they broke a law they be sentenced - not guilty till proven otherwise remember - that concept COMES OUT OF OF GREECE for crying out loud - and before u be a smart ass and tell me its roman law - dig depper and checke where the fellas on the boot got that idea.
anyway seems like another excuse for the collective interwebs to get their panties in a bunch

Were you drunk while you were writing that? Words were clearly coming out, but they didnt mean anything. Are you trying to say that you don't like it when "YANKS" apply their principles on the world stage? Please review your posts before shitting all over threads.

 

[TheRussian]

Espionage? Wow, you're lucky to get a trial, other governments could execute a spy without trial.
Captcha: know your rights
you're damn right Captcha.

 

[Lt._nefarious]

Greek official 1 - "We have got, like, nothing on these guys, they're clean."
Greek official 2 - "How long can we threaten them and keep them in pant-shitting suspense that threatens to tear their lives apart at the seams?"
Greek official 1 - "Quite a while... Er... Why, sir?"
Greek official 2 - "Do you think they can bail us out of economic crisis?"
Greek official 1 - "GENIUS!"

This... This seems stupid and, I mean, are those guys terrorists? It's a photo to help them make a videogame... Does Greece believe the ArmA 3 dev team is amassing an invasion fleet of some sort?

 

[acosn]

You mean to tell me Greece's head is so far up it's own ass that it thinks the Czechs want to spy on them?

Who the fuck wants to spy on Greece? Let alone the Czechs? I could understand the US or Russia, but an ex-soviet bloc country?

 

[tsb247]

lol funny to see if something happen that makes YANKS think they have a right to give comments on injustice.....stfu - there will be a trial etc etc IF they can prove that they broke a law they be sentenced - not guilty till proven otherwise remember - that concept COMES OUT OF OF GREECE for crying out loud - and before u be a smart ass and tell me its roman law - dig depper and checke where the fellas on the boot got that idea.
anyway seems like another excuse for the collective interwebs to get their panties in a bunch

I think you are forgetting that Greece is a country in a state of collapse with a government that is splintering due to the ensuing chaos that an economic collapse generally causes. Just because these ideas came from Greece over a thousand years ago, doesn't mean they practice what they preach right now. Have you heard of the Golden Dawn? They are real, and their influence is growing in Greece as they take advantage of the fact that the current government led the populace down the road to bankruptcy.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/anti-immigrant-golden-dawn-rises-in-greece/2012/10/20/e7128296-17a6-11e2-a346-f24efc680b8d_story.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/anti-immigrant-golden-dawn-rises-in-greece/2012/10/20/e7128296-17a6-11e2-a346-f24efc680b8d_story.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/11/world/europe/as-golden-dawn-rises-in-greece-anti-immigrant-violence-follows.html?pagewanted=all

The Greek government and legal system can't be trusted when you have people like this, or people who may or may not sympathize with them in places of power.

For all we know, they were picked up simply for not being Greek.